Keir Starmer

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Anyway the forums political sage Numerous was very recently saying the momentous upward curve shown since Starmer took over the leadership is only being opposed by Corbyn and his supporters. 

Rent free.

[Bruce Spanner]

Got in to it again with the person I mentioned previously and it came out that they were against him and he was a stooge because of things he did as DPP, she had gone away to check her twitter feed to 'remember' why she was so outraged, because I'd made her look simple previously and she just couldn't lose an argument now, could she?

 

This, I assume, is where the majority of the 'dirt' on him comes from.

 

Guardian hatchet job... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/16/keir-starmer-past-scrutiny

 

Worth a read just to see how flimsy the evidence against is and how far we'll go the shoot ourselves in the foot by accusing the sun of shining.

[Jairzinho]

42 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

 

With the benefit of hindsight, do you think Corbyn should have resigned, Jairz?

 

Knowing, as we do, now that he was actively sabotaged by official members in 2017 - when 2800 votes would have made him Prime Minister - and the value of moral clarity and leadership is gaining unusual traction with uprisings in major Western countries.

Yes, I do. I think doing considerably better than expected in 2017 ended up becoming a problem. I would have liked to have seen him stand down in 2018. Build the movement and then hand over the baton to someone with less baggage.

 

He stayed on too long, fought an unwinnable (in my opinion) election in 2019, did even worse than expected, and has almost certainly taken us back to square one. Any enthusiasm that young people, the previous unengaged, those that switched from Green, etc, has now disappeared. We're just back in anyone but Tory territory. My only slither of hope for Starmer, and it is based purely on hope, is that everything he says now is basically just a lie to try and win back the middle England flip flopping type voter. I have absolutely no fucking idea how he wins back the north that deserted Labour to "get Brexit done" (this, in my opinion, is the result of decades of being stiffed or ignored by both main parties, the idea that it can be pinned on Corbyn is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Same with Scotland fucking off).

 

It's rather sad. People from the centre demanding unity from the people they spend three years shitting all over. Hardly surprising when some of them say get fucked. The end result - more factionalism, more Tories.

[Gnasher]

4 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Yes, I do. I think doing considerably better than expected in 2017 ended up becoming a problem. I would have liked to have seen him stand down in 2018. Build the movement and then hand over the baton to someone with less baggage.

 

He stayed on too long, fought an unwinnable (in my opinion) election in 2019, did even worse than expected, and has almost certainly taken us back to square one. Any enthusiasm that young people, the previous unengaged, those that switched from Green, etc, has now disappeared. We're just back in anyone but Tory territory. My only slither of hope for Starmer, and it is based purely on hope, is that everything he says now is basically just a lie to try and win back the middle England flip flopping type voter. I have absolutely no fucking idea how he wins back the north that deserted Labour to "get Brexit done" (this, in my opinion, is the result of decades of being stiffed or ignored by both main parties, the idea that it can be pinned on Corbyn is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Same with Scotland fucking off).

 

It's rather sad. People from the centre demanding unity from the people they spend three years shitting all over. Hardly surprising when some of them say get fucked. The end result - more factionalism, more Tories.

I think that's an excellent post ( that's you fucked) and I agree Corbyn should have bailed out a couple of years ago.

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

He stayed on too long, fought an unwinnable (in my opinion) election in 2019

Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, I think only a brexiteer would have won that election. Even then... I dunno, it'd have to have been a slick mother fucker. The banging of the 'freedom' and 'respect the will of the people' was strong. Even though I defended Corbyn at the time, because the position on Brexit was actually the fairest position, it wasn't the right one to take. It made them look like fence sitters and nobody could really get behind them from their own position, so it was a mistake. 

 

It's fucked. It's all fucked. 

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, I think only a brexiteer would have won that election. Even then... I dunno, it'd have to have been a slick mother fucker. The banging of the 'freedom' and 'respect the will of the people' was strong. Even though I defended Corbyn at the time, because the position on Brexit was actually the fairest position, it wasn't the right one to take. It made them look like fence sitters and nobody could really get behind them from their own position, so it was a mistake. 

 

It's fucked. It's all fucked. 

Yep.

 

A full remain position would have led to an even worse result.

 

People often hark back to Blair's wins as evidence of the only way to win and/or as a way of trying to demean those on the left but the truth is that those wins were of the time and also led to the political make up of the country decades later. Not to mention the fact that vote share got worse even then.

 

They've created the change in the party's core vote, they've led to Brexit, and they've led to Labour being in an incredibly difficult position to win an election now. 

 

The working class north and the middle class south have radically different views on politics, especially social policies. How the fuck do you create a manifesto that both of them like?

 

 

[Captain Howdy]

Thing is though it was 24 years before Blair’s first win that Labour last won an election, it’s now been 15 years since his last win and Labour are further away than ever. This is by nature a Conservative country imo and that’s the problem, Blair was able to propitiate enough of the Tory vote as he knew that this was the only way Labour could possibly win. It was true then and it’s true now.

[Numero Veinticinco]

21 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

How the fuck do you create a manifesto that both of them like?

You lie in order to attract the biggest number of people then slip in your real manifesto through the back door, causing it to be as big an obstacle to overcome by future governments as possible.  You bribe the media Barrons to back you. You court big business and do backroom deals. Well, that's what the Tories do anyway. Seems to work really, really well.

[Moo]

35 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Yep.

 

A full remain position would have led to an even worse result.

 

People often hark back to Blair's wins as evidence of the only way to win and/or as a way of trying to demean those on the left but the truth is that those wins were of the time and also led to the political make up of the country decades later. Not to mention the fact that vote share got worse even then.

 

They've created the change in the party's core vote, they've led to Brexit, and they've led to Labour being in an incredibly difficult position to win an election now. 

 

The working class north and the middle class south have radically different views on politics, especially social policies. How the fuck do you create a manifesto that both of them like?

 

 

Find common ground on a single issue (like Brexit) and make a massive big deal out of it.  Of course this means having the media on side, but as per they're the biggest obstacle to closing the wealth gap in this country.

[Kevin D]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

Yes, I do. I think doing considerably better than expected in 2017 ended up becoming a problem. I would have liked to have seen him stand down in 2018. Build the movement and then hand over the baton to someone with less baggage.

 

He stayed on too long, fought an unwinnable (in my opinion) election in 2019, did even worse than expected, and has almost certainly taken us back to square one. Any enthusiasm that young people, the previous unengaged, those that switched from Green, etc, has now disappeared. We're just back in anyone but Tory territory. My only slither of hope for Starmer, and it is based purely on hope, is that everything he says now is basically just a lie to try and win back the middle England flip flopping type voter. I have absolutely no fucking idea how he wins back the north that deserted Labour to "get Brexit done" (this, in my opinion, is the result of decades of being stiffed or ignored by both main parties, the idea that it can be pinned on Corbyn is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Same with Scotland fucking off).

 

It's rather sad. People from the centre demanding unity from the people they spend three years shitting all over. Hardly surprising when some of them say get fucked. The end result - more factionalism, more Tories.

 

Mate, I'm absolutely gutted that people like you - who would walked through fire for Corbyn - now essentially think that voting is a lost cause.

 

The enthusiasm, the belief we had last year has just evaporated and it breaks my heart.

 

This fool, Johnson, is going to get 150,000 more people killed and we're left hoping that every single time Starmer agrees with his ideas, but slightly disagrees on tactical grounds, that he's playing 3d chess to get elected.

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

 

Mate, I'm absolutely gutted that people like you - who would walked through fire for Corbyn - now essentially think that voting is a lost cause.

 

The enthusiasm, the belief we had last year has just evaporated and it breaks my heart.

 

This fool, Johnson, is going to get 150,000 more people killed and we're left hoping that every single time Starmer agrees with his ideas, but slightly disagrees on tactical grounds, that he's playing 3d chess to get elected.

 

The thing is, you can't win an election 5 years out. You can probably lose it though, or at least give a load of ammunition that makes you look unelectable. I don't think it's about 3D chess so much as an understanding that the people you're trying to win over just voted for Boris Johnson to have a massive majority. Shouting about how stupid they are rather than pointing out the weaknesses and issues and having them come to their own conclusion isn't a good move for electability yet. What I want to see from Starmer is the promises that his shadow cabinet have made about coming up with new policies for the future of the country. It's with his policies that I'll really judge him.

[Jairzinho]

32 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

 

Mate, I'm absolutely gutted that people like you - who would walked through fire for Corbyn - now essentially think that voting is a lost cause.

 

The enthusiasm, the belief we had last year has just evaporated and it breaks my heart.

 

This fool, Johnson, is going to get 150,000 more people killed and we're left hoping that every single time Starmer agrees with his ideas, but slightly disagrees on tactical grounds, that he's playing 3d chess to get elected.

I think you may be slightly overstating my previous position. For me Corbyn was only ever a vehicle for the type of politics I want/wanted to see. He lacked so many skills required to be a leader but unlike the vast majority of politicans he gives a fuck, he's a nice human, and he's incorruptible. But yes, I had hope. I saw it in people that had previously had no interest in politics. 

 

I will vote Labour, but I have no interest in being a member. Nor will I waste any time trying to convince other people to vote Labour, partly because I have zero conviction in the party or leader myself. I won't help with any campaigning, which I did a little bit (I won't pretend it was a lot) a few years ago. 

 

Because the enthusiasm has gone. I think I know what happens to the party next, and I don't want anything to do with it. 

 

I also don't think Starmer will win the next election anyway. I don't see any evidence that people want the type of party I believe (as it's obviously not concrete now) that Labour are becoming/will become under his leadership. It'll grab a few of the marginals that Blair won, but it won't win back any of the red wall.

 

I really fucking despise the Guardian-esque triumphalism of having him as leader. "We've got a serious leader now" type stuff. Like the whole country was crying out for a London based, vocal remain supporting, lawyer to take the helm. Like everything is sorted now. No. It was incredibly complex and still is, the country has changed enormously over the last few decades. Dissecting how and why, and how to "fix" that will take some serious work and time. I honestly just don't have the hope any more. It's gone. 2017 was the chance, and people within the Labour party did their utmost to lose. 

 

I really wish Corbyn had been more of a cunt. I wish he'd slung these fucking snakes out of the party. In to a fucking skip.

[Jairzinho]

53 minutes ago, Numero said:

You lie in order to attract the biggest number of people then slip in your real manifesto through the back door, causing it to be as big an obstacle to overcome by future governments as possible.  You bribe the media Barrons to back you. You court big business and do backroom deals. Well, that's what the Tories do anyway. Seems to work really, really well.

Yes, it works fantastically for those cunt. I fear that the opportunity for Labour to do this again won't re-emerge, sadly.

[Bjornebye]

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

6 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

Hope you're right, but I fear plenty of them will be in a ditch holding up their blue passport grinning from ear to ear.

Good god.

[Red Phoenix]

I was bored.

 

Chaotic scenes unfurled in the government's first press conference yesterday after the new Labour, SNP and Worker's Party alliance recently ended over a decade of Tory rule. George Galloway, this time dressed as a dog, chased Nicola Sturgeon around the room who was dressed as a cat whilst meowing and hissing. Neither of them took any comments before Labour staff ended the conference, and Starmer was nowhere to be seen, later confirmed to be on LBC taking calls from angry Labour voters concerned at the new alliance with Trots.

 

About an hour later, George Galloway literally crashed through Downing Street's gates in a tank. One that we're still trying to confirm where it originated from, parked outside Number 10 and appeared from the hatch with a communist flag, waving it and shouting repeatedly "Dissolve the state! But only after I've had me five years!"

 

Police and security services surrounded the tank, yet Galloway refused to stand down until a group of Russia Today staff arrived, negotioted with him for almost two hours and eventually got him to leave so that he could get back to his RT show due to be streamed that night.

 

Over the course of the day, most of the media who'd been searching all over London for Jeremy Corbyn to blame for everything that had taken place, finally found him stoned in his allotment shed. He was sat smoking the last couple of buds of his weed stash after Red Phoenix had been there in the early hours of the morning, stolen most of the weed and then made his way back up north to codhead territory. Asked for comment on the days events, Corbyn almost instantly emerged from his weed haze and angrily refused to answer. He eventually muttered something about having "fuck all left to smoke", got on his bike, pushed his way though the reporters that had gathered and shot off back home.

 

To end one of the the UK's most bizarre days of political events in recent memory, Nicola Sturgeon held another press conference. Here she stated that "with Starmer spending half his time on LBC and Galloway a full time presenter with his own RT show and not even a fucking politician, I think it leaves my path to Number 10 assured, and that it's only a matter of time before we see this happen." Asked frantically by reporters if this meant she'd break up the union, Sturgeon smiled, stuck a finger up, said "no fuckin comment", ended the press conference and left the room.

 

At the Guardian many staff are already craving to go back to the Tory rule that has now ended, horrified at the prospects of this current government. One thing is for certain though, and that's that change is finally coming. All we have to do is see what form that takes and hope for the best.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

I was bored.

 

Chaotic scenes unfurled in the government's first press conference yesterday after the new Labour, SNP and Worker's Party alliance recently ended over a decade of Tory rule. George Galloway, this time dressed as a dog, chased Nicola Sturgeon around the room who was dressed as a cat whilst meowing and hissing. Neither of them took any comments before Labour staff ended the conference, and Starmer was nowhere to be seen, later confirmed to be on LBC taking calls from angry Labour voters concerned at the new alliance with Trots.

 

About an hour later, George Galloway literally crashed through Downing Street's gates in a tank. One that we're still trying to confirm where it originated from, parked outside Number 10 and appeared from the hatch with a communist flag, waving it and shouting repeatedly "Dissolve the state! But only after I've had me five years!"

 

Police and security services surrounded the tank, yet Galloway refused to stand down until a group of Russia Today staff arrived, negotioted with him for almost two hours and eventually got him to leave so that he could get back to his RT show due to be streamed that night.

 

Over the course of the day, most of the media who'd been searching all over London for Jeremy Corbyn to blame for everything that had taken place, finally found him stoned in his allotment shed. He was sat smoking the last couple of buds of his weed stash after Red Phoenix had been there in the early hours of the morning, stolen most of the weed and then made his way back up north to codhead territory. Asked for comment on the days events, Corbyn almost instantly emerged from his weed haze and angrily refused to answer. He eventually muttered something about having "fuck all left to smoke", got on his bike, pushed his way though the reporters that had gathered and shot off back home.

 

To end one of the the UK's most bizarre days of political events in recent memory, Nicola Sturgeon held another press conference. Here she stated that "with Starmer spending half his time on LBC and Galloway a full time presenter with his own RT show and not even a fucking politician, I think it leaves my path to Number 10 assured, and that it's only a matter of time before we see this happen." Asked frantically by reporters if this meant she'd break up the union, Sturgeon smiled, stuck a finger up, said "no fuckin comment", ended the press conference and left the room.

 

At the Guardian many staff are already craving to go back to the Tory rule that has now ended, horrified at the prospects of this current government. One thing is for certain though, and that's that change is finally coming. All we have to do is see what form that takes and hope for the best.

You, my good man, are going to spin off this planet. I love it. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Fucking PMQs today. Johnson is more than happy to be a lying cunt and every week he gets shown to be one. He tried to turn the absolutely damning report into an issue over Brexit and said Starmer was sitting on his hands and said nothing about Salisbury. Starmer said he spoke out about it, and did so because he was the one leading legal action against Russia on behalf of Litvinenko's wife. Took about 1 minute for this to be floating around twitter. 

 

 

[Duff Man]

I'm not sure why they'd change tack now. Bullshitting their way through everything has worked out pretty well so far.

[Bruce Spanner]

The Eeyore thing should have been jumped on straight away.

 

Of course we’re downbeat, we’re in the middle of a global pandemic which your government has handled atrociously, and economic free fall on the way, mass unemployment, record national debt, an unaccountable gang of spad’s who are running the show, a civil service being dismantled, a very real chance of a second wave, banging heads with China and Russia, this is exacerbated by the decision to leave a collective of supportive countries, we have a prime minster who openly lies and without regard for any other cunt bar himself and his cabal of spivs who are hell bent on making the UK economy the personal fiefdom of themselves and their financial backers, a much loved NHS about to be sold off through the back door, workers rights about to be eroded and so on...

 

It’s hardly the days of wine and roses is it, you shaggy haired prick? 

[Bjornebye]

Its the same shit every week. 5 of Starmers questions were pretty much the same again and let him get out of it everytime with his shouting and lies. Yet agin Johnson with something that will trend in his closing answer. This week it was flip-flops on Bournemouth beach. Set up again as Bournemouth Beach is trending on twitter. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Its the same shit every week. 5 of Starmers questions were pretty much the same again and let him get out of it everytime with his shouting and lies. Yet agin Johnson with something that will trend in his closing answer. This week it was flip-flops on Bournemouth beach. Set up again as Bournemouth Beach is trending on twitter. 

The tactic here is not to water down the issue by asking 5 different questions. It's to nail him on one issue. I think he's doing that quite well. He's getting fucking hammered on twitter as far as I can see. It might be the wrong tactic in the long term, but trying to make him look like he's evading questions seems to be a decent one at the moment. Like I was saying the other day, there's no winning an election now, there's just not losing it. Boris Johnson shouting about flip-flops when the news cycle has been showing wall to wall coverage yesterday about how the government dropped the ball in that issue makes him look like a fucking wanker. And I think the best tactic at the moment is to show the voters who they voted for. It's hard to get somebody convinced he's just a good toff haircut that he's actually a fucking Wally, they need to discover it by showing not telling. 

 

The criticism I have of Starmer today is that he decided not to do what he has done before, which is quote lines from the report and the Q&A that really kick sand at them. There were some very powerful things in there. It feels like a missed opportunity to really go into that report and the failings of it. That said, I think the more Johnson replied like last week (where it was Calvin Kleins in response to support for the families of dead people) and this week (flip flops in response to Russia report) the better, I think. People are going to get absolutely tired of that shit eventually. 

[Bruce Spanner]

6 minutes ago, Numero said:

The tactic here is not to water down the issue by asking 5 different questions. It's to nail him on one issue. I think he's doing that quite well. He's getting fucking hammered on twitter as far as I can see. It might be the wrong tactic in the long term, but trying to make him look like he's evading questions seems to be a decent one at the moment. Like I was saying the other day, there's no winning an election now, there's just not losing it. Boris Johnson shouting about flip-flops when the news cycle has been showing wall to wall coverage yesterday about how the government dropped the ball in that issue makes him look like a fucking wanker. And I think the best tactic at the moment is to show the voters who they voted for. It's hard to get somebody convinced he's just a good toff haircut that he's actually a fucking Wally, they need to discover it by showing not telling. 

 

The criticism I have of Starmer today is that he decided not to do what he has done before, which is quote lines from the report and the Q&A that really kick sand at them. There were some very powerful things in there. It feels like a missed opportunity to really go into that report and the failings of it. That said, I think the more Johnson replied like last week (where it was Calvin Kleins in response to support for the families of dead people) and this week (flip flops in response to Russia report) the better, I think. People are going to get absolutely tired of that shit eventually. 

By making him dig in deeper he’s building a list of things he’s agreed  he’s accountable/responsible for which he can be held accountable for later on down the line.

 

If the public listen that is...

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

By making him dig in deeper he’s building a list of things he’s agreed  he’s accountable/responsible for which he can be held accountable for later on down the line.

 

If the public listen that is...

Yeah, and it also builds up a compendium of lies. Every week Johnson just bullshits. Each and every week new people read how everything he says is just straight up bollocks. One of the important things is to get those who work in politics from the media to see how much of a lying oaf he actually is. I think it's going okay. Not great. Not bad. It's very early days - a few months into half a decade worth of Tory bollocks - so who knows how this whole thing will play out. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jul/22/uk-coronavirus-live-covid-19-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-5f18246d8f088024316acfe8#block-5f18246d8f088024316acfe8

 

Guardian run-down or 'snap verdict' of the PMQs this week. They count it as one of the most decisive wins of his. I'm not entirely sure I agree, for the reasons I gave, but it certainly wasn't anywhere close too a loss. As if anybody actually gives a fuck anymore.