Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Bruce Spanner]

17 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

I was a strong supporter of Corbyn and I agree that there are a number of his supporters that are completely blinkered to his weaknesses. He was a reluctant leader, he had a number of questionable things about his past that put the public off and didn't fit the template/path that normally leads to becoming a prime minister. 

 

Its nonsense to say that Labour was decimated because of him and his campaign though. Brexit was the key issue at the last election, and Labour had no where to go with it. Nearly all the marginal seats were areas that voted leave. They weren't going to vote for any party threatening to take Brexit away from them. I think every seat that they lost (except maybe 1?) was in a leave area. The pro leave areas wanted a leader that felt passionately about Brexit. That's the only reason Boris Johnson got the nod from the Tories .

 

Even the 1997 version of Tony Blair wouldn't have won the last election as Labour leader. By the time the election came round he would have been smeared as Brexit blocker Blair with the weird wife, the man that doesn't care about democracy, the man that wants us to join the euro etc.

 

The data is very clear on this. If you look at the last 3 elections, in 2015, Ukip got around 3.8 million votes (12.6%) in 2017 they collapsed to less than 600k (1.8%) Labour went up from 30% to 40% Tories moved from 37% to 42% in 2019 Labour went down to 32% and the Tories only went up slightly by 1.3% 

 

The Ukip/leave voters are the difference. A Labour party standing on a pro brexit platform would have beaten a Tory party standing on a second referendum platform in 2019. 

 

Moving forward, I don't know what Labour should do for the best anymore. They risk alienating the areas where they are doing well by ostracising Corbyn, Scotland is a lost cause, Starmer isn't popular with Brexit voters, it seems a very very long way back for Labour right now. 

 

 

 

 

And that’s the issue then, he, as leader didn’t want or do this. He couldn’t sense which way the wind was blowing and was listening to people he probably shouldn’t, I think Starmer was in favour of this course of action.

 

He failed as leader because of a difficult and wholly inadequate campaign and this is the reason Labour we’re decimated.

 

I am over egging the pudding somewhat and take on board what you say and will concede that there were other factors at play, but this complete blindness to his clear failing is frustrating. 

[Megadrive Man]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

And that’s the issue then, he, as leader didn’t want or do this. He couldn’t sense which way the wind was blowing and was listening to people he probably shouldn’t, I think Starmer was in favour of this course of action.

 

He failed as leader because of a difficult and wholly inadequate campaign and this is the reason Labour we’re decimated.

 

I am over egging the pudding somewhat and take on board what you say and will concede that there were other factors at play, but this complete blindness to his clear failing is frustrating. 

 

I agree. From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer and others, as well as the Labour membership being around 80% remain, which made it even more difficult for him.

 

He definitely wasn't strong enough at times though. I often wonder if John McDonnell would have a made a better fist of it? He seems to have more fight in him than Corbyn. 

 

Somebody on here called it, Labour need a Klopp type leader. Sadly I can't see any body in the party that is even close to having all of his qualities. 

[Section_31]

Interesting doings at my mate's zoom clp meeting recently which is broadly loyal to Corbyn. They managed to piss off the local union rep by slagging the union off, and slagged off the local Labour Council (pissing off two councillors who were at the meeting). Another member attending for the first time remarked how unpleasant it was and said they won't be going again. That's how these cats roll. The blanket of acceptability gets smaller all the time. Lots of references to Sir Keith though. Great banter.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer

Out of interest, why is this your understanding? Starmer was saying at the time (I posted a video in the Starmer thread a couple of weeks ago about it) that Labour had to accept the result and go about getting the best deal for the UK. It’s be interesting to see what changed. 

[Megadrive Man]

4 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

The election was in December. Corbyn was being told in the previous summer that he was polling badly and would lose Labour the election unless he stood down. He chose to ignore this becuase of a fatal combination of hubris and stupidity. 

 

Yeah I always felt he was in Stannis Baratheon territory going in to that election.

 

Do you honestly believe that any other Labour MP would have done significantly better though?

[Bruce Spanner]

12 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

I agree. From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer and others, as well as the Labour membership being around 80% remain, which made it even more difficult for him.

 

He definitely wasn't strong enough at times though. I often wonder if John McDonnell would have a made a better fist of it? He seems to have more fight in him than Corbyn. 

 

Somebody on here called it, Labour need a Klopp type leader. Sadly I can't see any body in the party that is even close to having all of his qualities. 

As much as I love the daft old bastard I knew he wasn’t for front line politics when he threw Chairman Moa’s little red book across the dispatch box.

 

Hilarious, but such a bad look...

 

 

[Megadrive Man]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

Out of interest, why is this your understanding? Starmer was saying at the time (I posted a video in the Starmer thread a couple of weeks ago about it) that Labour had to accept the result and go about getting the best deal for the UK. It’s be interesting to see what changed. 

I don't think I saw that? When was that video from? After the referendum result there was a period of time where all Labour Mps were saying that we needed to respect the result, but then between the 2017 election and the 2019 election they moved towards a second referendum. I remember seeing a video at the Labour party conference  with Starmer suggesting a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper;

 

It might have been around this time;

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-deal-keir-starmer-second-referendum-350112

 

I don't blame this on Starmer though, as I said before I don't think Labour really had anywhere to go and it was very popular with the membership. 

[Megadrive Man]

13 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Another member attending for the first time remarked how unpleasant it was and said they won't be going again. That's how these cats roll. The blanket of acceptability gets smaller all the time. Lots of references to Sir Keith though. Great banter.

That is 'the left' in a nutshell right now.  I used to follow quite a few left leaning groups on Facebook/Twitter, but I've unfollowed all of them because its the same tedious unfunny nonsense every single day. 

 

I can understand the anger/frustration that a lot of people feel now, but they have to find a way to channel it in a more positive, constructive way. 

[Section_31]

Just now, MegadriveMan said:

That is 'the left' in a nutshell right now.  I used to follow quite a few left leaning groups on Facebook/Twitter, but I've unfollowed all of them because its the same tedious unfunny nonsense every single day. 

 

I can understand the anger/frustration that a lot of people feel now, but they have to find a way to channel it in a more positive, constructive way. 

Thing is, I'd argue it was channelled just as pointlessly under Corbyn, it wasn't aimed at Labour because Labour was Corbyn, in their eyes, but I'm only going by my own experiences here, they had a penchant for a grandstanding, they'd do stuff like go to the Tory party conference and take selfies of themselves with Labour banners, but come time to knock on doors for a council or crime commissioner election, to leaflet or do any kind of graft that wasn't sharable on twitter, they were conspicuous by their absence. 

[Megadrive Man]

9 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Thing is, I'd argue it was channelled just as pointlessly under Corbyn, it wasn't aimed at Labour because Labour was Corbyn, in their eyes, but I'm only going by my own experiences here, they had a penchant for a grandstanding, they'd do stuff like go to the Tory party conference and take selfies of themselves with Labour banners, but come time to knock on doors for a council or crime commissioner election, to leaflet or do any kind of graft that wasn't sharable on twitter, they were conspicuous by their absence. 

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

[sir roger]

Aye,the centre and the right will sort everything out with their teamworking , thank god we have been saved.

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Looking at the last few pages I would suggest Corbyn 's main mistake was not getting advice on setting up a cult from Keir.

 

[Section_31]

Just now, MegadriveMan said:

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

I know this one guy who's quite respected nationally in those circles, and with unions, loves his Keith banter. He is genuinely an imbecile. He had form for never doing any campaigning, I've never seen him knock a single door, but he used to turn up if a well known Labour figure was in the area, he'd put a suit on especially and get a photo with them then fuck off.  

[Section_31]

4 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Aye,the centre and the right will sort everything out with their teamworking , thank god we have been saved.

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Looking at the last few pages I would suggest Corbyn 's main mistake was not getting advice on setting up a cult from Keir.

 

Isn't it possible to not rate Corbyn but still be on the left, or are you by default right or centre? Pretty close to "with us or against us" type of talk that.

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Wow. You take Corbyn criticism so personally. As for this mythical ‘right’, of course they’re not going to have plain sailing from here on out. These children of Thatcher still have to clear up the mess Corbyn’s regime left behind. 

[Bruce Spanner]

40 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

As I’ve alluded to several times I work(ed) on youth engagement and you’d be surprised how involved and engaged they were in 2017, it really hit them hard, as they’d worked so hard and were filled with such optimism, when we didn’t win that I think a lot of them turned against politics, even if only for a while and maybe they’ll all come back fully again.

 

2019 was different there was an entitlement to the ones who I worked with, not sure of it was just those I worked with but I spoke to people in a few different cities and it seemed consistent. They were overbearing, rude and condescending to some of the old heads that were door knocking and manning the stations. It was a strange vibe where opinions were shot down and there wasn’t a sense of togetherness that I’ve know previously. 

 

Now, the ones I engage with, we’re outside election period, so it’s a lot less focused, are still strongly Labour supports and hate the Tories, but it’s a small(ish) sample and obviously not representative.

 

The kids might just be alright.   

[Mudface]

1 hour ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

The election was in December. Corbyn was being told in the previous summer that he was polling badly and would lose Labour the election unless he stood down. He chose to ignore this becuase of a fatal combination of hubris and stupidity. 

Well the election wasn't due until 2022, the Lib Dem's opportunism allowed Johnson to call it in Dec 2019 after months of him being on the ropes.

 

The previous summer was barely 12 months after he'd won the largest number of Labour votes since Blair in 1997, so I don't see why he would have stood down.

[Captain Turdseye]

Clive Lewis follows me on Twitter so for that reason I think he should be Prime Minister. Just imagine the GF having a direct line into Number 10. We could get him to channel funds into the campaign to stop Stig fingering cats. Tax payers money could be used to ensure that breakfasts without beans are banned and anyone not complying receives a hefty fine. Repeat offenders to get jail time with a diet of beans on toast three times a day. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Captain Turdseye said:

Clive Lewis follows me on Twitter so for that reason I think he should be Prime Minister. Just imagine the GF having a direct line into Number 10. We could get him to channel funds into the campaign to stop Stig fingering cats. Tax payers money could be used to ensure that breakfasts without beans are banned and anyone not complying receives a hefty fine. Repeat offenders to get jail time with a diet of beans on toast three times a day. 

Good luck with that 

[Captain Howdy]

2 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

I’ve always thought dan Jarvis would be worth a shot. 

He doesn’t want the gig

[Mudface]

I'd gladly pay more tax if it could be hypothecated for a scheme to allow us all, not just Stig, to finger more cats. I know it's populist, but some things are just right.

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Mudface said:

I'd gladly pay more tax if it could be hypothecated for a scheme to allow us all, not just Stig, to finger more cats. I know it's populist, but some things are just right.

Don’t worry mate, most on here wouldn’t know what to do with a pussy if it slapped them in the face 

[Gnasher]

12 hours ago, sir roger said:

Aye,the centre and the right will sort everything out with their teamworking , thank god we have been saved.

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Looking at the last few pages I would suggest Corbyn 's main mistake was not getting advice on setting up a cult from Keir.

 

 The word socialism does frighten some people. One prominent poster seems to want to ignore media bias and blame the 2015 election defeat on Jeremy Corbyn even though he wasnt even leader. 

 

I note the scum press have a photo of Nicola Sturgeon at a funeral wake today (classy of them) I'm no fan of Sturgeons but they have a good reason for the use of sewer tactics. No need to point to which paper. Cummings meanwhile had certain right wing journalists defending him.

 

The serious point is when the scum print media agenda start dominating the main tv election bulletins. The most recent glaring incident was the poor kid left on the corridor floor at a Leeds Hospital. A local journalist questioned Boris Johnson on the picture (it wouldn't be one the many tv and print journalists riding around in his bus would it) and the mirror put it on thier front page. As the story hit the main tv bulletins the Sun (yes it had to be them) reported a Corbyn aid punched a Conservative member outside the hospital. Both Laura Kuenssberg and Robert Peston ran with the sun story without checking the facts. They were the only main journalists to do so. The story of the little boy got swallowed by the alleged assault incident. The assault of course turned out to be false.

 

What's so depressing and alarming about the above story is the university report into the previous election flagged up the tv media reliance on the printed media for stories during the 2015 election (nothing to do with Corbyn) and reported the agenda was being driven by the newspapers, who are of course owned by Tory backing billionaires 

 

So Spanner can try to ignore the print media influence all he likes but until the field is leveled to make the game fairer the only choice is to continue to fight for a fairer mainstream media or move further right so as not to be a perceived threat to newspaper owners interests.

 

Anyway.. another snippet from the report.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ourbeeb/newspapers-not-bbc-led-way-in-biased-election-coverage/

[Gnasher]

22 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 The word socialism does frighten some people. One prominent poster seems to want to ignore media bias and blame the 2015 election defeat on Jeremy Corbyn even though he wasnt even leader. 

 

I note the scum press have a photo of Nicola Sturgeon at a funeral wake today (classy of them) I'm no fan of Sturgeons but they have a good reason for the use of sewer tactics. No need to point to which paper. Cummings meanwhile had certain right wing journalists defending him.

 

The serious point is when the scum print media agenda start dominating the main tv election bulletins. The most recent glaring incident was the poor kid left on the corridor floor at a Leeds Hospital. A local journalist questioned Boris Johnson on the picture (it wouldn't be one the many tv and print journalists riding around in his bus would it) and the mirror put it on thier front page. As the story hit the main tv bulletins the Sun (yes it had to be them) reported a Corbyn aid punched a Conservative member outside the hospital. Both Laura Kuenssberg and Robert Peston ran with the sun story without checking the facts. They were the only main journalists to do so. The story of the little boy got swallowed by the alleged assault incident. The assault of course turned out to be false.

Sorry forgot link

 

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/bbc-and-itv-political-editors-apologise-for-false-hospital-punch-claim-in-tweets/

22 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

What's so depressing and alarming about the above story is the university report into the previous election flagged up the tv media reliance on the printed media for stories during the 2015 election (nothing to do with Corbyn) and reported the agenda was being driven by the newspapers, who are of course owned by Tory backing billionaires 

 

So Spanner can try to ignore the print media influence all he likes but until the field is leveled to make the game fairer the only choice is to continue to fight for a fairer mainstream media or move further right so as not to be a perceived threat to newspaper owners interests.

 

Anyway.. another snippet from the report.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ourbeeb/newspapers-not-bbc-led-way-in-biased-election-coverage/

 

[sir roger]

14 hours ago, Numero said:

Wow. You take Corbyn criticism so personally. As for this mythical ‘right’, of course they’re not going to have plain sailing from here on out. These children of Thatcher still have to clear up the mess Corbyn’s regime left behind. 

All 4 years of it, with over 2 years with the previous Gen Sec and the great majority of it with a majority centrist NEC. Good to see you getting the excuses in early.

 

As for the rubbish about Corbyn, I have criticised his leadership skills at length on here  (as opposed to your constant rimming of Starmer ) and am not particularly bothered about him being in the party or not at this point, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with patronising shite on here blaming the left for everything and people ignoring the fact that a Labour leader's response to a decision of his which a poll suggested had split the membership down the middle was to ban any discussion and start tossing long time members out of the party.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, sir roger said:

All 4 years of it, with over 2 years with the previous Gen Sec and the great majority of it with a majority centrist NEC. Good to see you getting the excuses in early.

 

As for the rubbish about Corbyn, I have criticised his leadership skills at length on here  (as opposed to your constant rimming of Starmer ) and am not particularly bothered about him being in the party or not at this point, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with patronising shite on here blaming the left for everything and people ignoring the fact that a Labour leader's response to a decision of his which a poll suggested had split the membership down the middle was to ban any discussion and start tossing long time members out of the party.

What excuses? Stop making things up. I’ve said many times that Starmer is responsible for everything he does. What rimming? Stop making things up. It makes you look like a twat. You already look like a defensive, cultist weirdo who takes everything personally when Corbyn gets criticised, there’s no need to make things up. It’s only when you are in a warped, cultists mentality that you see any objective facts as ‘rimming’. 
 

I’m simply saying it won’t be smooth sailing. The disgraceful state the party was left by Corbyn’s administration ensures that. Starmer knew that, it’s on him to fix it and win the election or get into power via a coalition. If he doesn’t, he will be a failure and can fuck off. He means nothing to me. I want the Tories out. I just want them out more than I want Corbyn’s honour protected on the Internet.