Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Bjornebye]

Well surprise fucking surprise. Good to see those who threw unfounded Anti-Semitism claims around getting their comeuppance. Lets hope it spreads into other areas as well. Yes walking broken calculator with tits, I'm looking at you. 

[Bruce Spanner]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

The report into media bias is from the election when Milliband was leader so nothing to do with Corbyn.  

 

http://www.electionanalysis.uk/uk-election-analysis-2015/section-1-media-reporting/the-horse-race-contest-dominated-tv-news-election-coverage/

 

Oh and I know what thread this is I was debunking your shithouse defense of the British media, so fuck off yourself you tedious little twat

You say the sweetest things! 
 

The British media is bias, why would it not be, they’re privately owned enterprises, excluding Auntie and C4, they are free to do as the please, within the legislative framework. What you are doing is conflating two issues, one of ownership and one of responsibility, and you’re all over the place defending neither.

 

The report shows what you’d expect, why would it not, vested business interests would not like a left, even more so socialist, government at the helm as it would hurt their bottom line and influence. But, what you’re hoping for is for these to present things in a way you find palatable, yes? Well, guess fucking what? They have no interests in doing this, nor do they have any fucking reason to. The rules of the game have been in place for generations and unless ‘we’ fight against this by using every opportunity to project ‘our’ message we’re damned forever to the fringes, Corbyn is guiltier than most as he made a show of himself every time he was given extended air time, this isn’t even up for debate he was terrible with a lens trained on him.

 

If ‘we’ had won the election then we could have made it more difficult for them to be rabbid, ironically Blair did this whilst offering Murdock sweeteners, but that’s the only chance we’ll get of levelling the playing field if we win, that’s it. Corbyn campaign lost the election, not the media, not any number of perceived enemies. It was fucking awful, from manifesto, to campaigning, to media engagement, to organisation, to presentation and community engagement. 
 

What is being said, effectively, is ‘I, a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn can see through all of the media lies and these poor unfortunate, exploited souls can’t as they are being manipulated by the Meediaaa. I’m much smarter than them as I know the real truth’. It’s wholly unproductive, massively damaging and arrogance in the extreme to continue to peddle this falsehood that it was the media’s fucking fault, they played a part, but that part is insignificant in the, frankly, pathetic campaign that Labour ran.

 

To position the working class as largely unthinking oafs who are led by their nose is hubris in its worst manifestation when the have roundly rejected ‘socialism’ throughout British political history. Self interest vs collective responsibility is the binary choice and we must admit that Britain is, in the main, a nasty, short sighted, insular little fucking island inhabited by emotionally stunted, selfish cunts.

 

We are one of numerous ways of doing things, one of many ‘truths’ and one of many competing ideas. We are not ‘right’ we are a version of what we think is right and that’s what we need to sell and we have to use every tool at our disposal to do that and attempt to climb every obstacle that’s in the way and that includes the media as why the fuck would they want us to succeed? 

 

 

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

You say the sweetest things! 
 

The British media is bias, why would it not be, they’re privately owned enterprises, excluding Auntie and C4, they are free to do as the please, within the legislative framework. What you are doing is conflating two issues, one of ownership and one of responsibility, and you’re all over the place defending neither.

 

The report shows what you’d expect, why would it not, vested business interests would not like a left, even more so socialist, government at the helm as it would hurt their bottom line and influence. But, what you’re hoping for is for these to present things in a way you find palatable, yes? Well, guess fucking what? They have no interests in doing this, nor do they have any fucking reason to. The rules of the game have been in place for generations and unless ‘we’ fight against this by using every opportunity to project ‘our’ message we’re damned forever to the fringes, Corbyn is guiltier than most as he made a show of himself every time he was given extended air time, this isn’t even up for debate he was terrible with a lens trained on him.

 

If ‘we’ had won the election then we could have made it more difficult for them to be rabbid, ironically Blair did this whilst offering Murdock sweeteners, but that’s the only chance we’ll get of levelling the playing field if we win, that’s it. Corbyn campaign lost the election, not the media, not any number of perceived enemies. It was fucking awful, from manifesto, to campaigning, to media engagement, to organisation, to presentation and community engagement. 
 

What is being said, effectively, is ‘I, a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn can see through all of the media lies and these poor unfortunate, exploited souls can’t as they are being manipulated by the Meediaaa. I’m much smarter than them as I know the real truth’. It’s wholly unproductive, massively damaging and arrogance in the extreme to continue to peddle this falsehood that it was the media’s fucking fault, they played a part, but that part is insignificant in the, frankly, pathetic campaign that Labour ran.

 

To position the working class as largely unthinking oafs who are led by their nose is hubris in its worst manifestation when the have roundly rejected ‘socialism’ throughout British political history. Self interest vs collective responsibility is the binary choice and we must admit that Britain is, in the main, a nasty, short sighted, insular little fucking island inhabited by emotionally stunted, selfish cunts.

 

We are one of numerous ways of doing things, one of many ‘truths’ and one of many competing ideas. We are not ‘right’ we are a version of what we think is right and that’s what we need to sell and we have to use every tool at our disposal to do that and attempt to climb every obstacle that’s in the way and that includes the media as why the fuck would they want us to succeed? 

 

 

Regarding your first sentence I replied in kind. The report was about the 2015 election when Ed Milliband was leader so has didley squat to do with Jeremy  Corbyn, but I think you knew that which makes me suspicious of your intentions. 

 

The rest of your post is twaddle.

 

Anyway.. 

 

 

 

[skend04]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Regarding your first sentence I replied in kind. The rest of your post is twaddle.

 

Anyway..

 

 

 

You just can't help but be amazed at all those Red Wall Tories thinking Boris is doing a good job. 

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, skend04 said:

You just can't help but be amazed at all those Red Wall Tories thinking Boris is doing a good job. 

I agree its astonishing.

[Bruce Spanner]

40 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Regarding your first sentence I replied in kind. The report was about the 2015 election when Ed Milliband was leader so has didley squat to do with Jeremy  Corbyn, but I think you knew that which makes me suspicious of your intentions. 

 

The rest of your post is twaddle.

 

Anyway.. 

 

 

 

It’s not though and you know it, but like most zealots you’ll refute any idea which challenges your worldview, naivety and boneheadedness are the order of the day after all.

 

As I said previously, I’m so fucking bored of this.

 

Corbyn has become like Trump to his supporters who refuse to accept any criticism of him.

 

He was decimated at the election as the public rejected him and his terrible campaign. Now if you’re claiming that all of those people deserted Labour because ‘the media’ told them to then you’re saying these people are thick and can’t see through the messaging, which is truly repugnant and position the working class as unthinking serfs with no minds of their own. So they are too thick to think for themselves and see what Jezza offered, is that right?

 

The fucking arrogance of it.

 

Labour were destroyed because of Corbyn and his leadership and no amount of revisionism, double think, blaming or deflection will ever change that.

 

 

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

It’s not though and you know it, but like most zealots you’ll refute any idea which challenges your worldview, naivety and boneheadedness are the order of the day after all.

 

As I said previously, I’m so fucking bored of this.

 

What fuvking planet are you on?  Have you injected vim? The report is a university analysis of the media coverage of the 2015 election. Ed Miliband was Labour leader, Corbyn wasnt even in the cabinet. Jeremy Corbyn is not even mentioned.

 

Some bullet points.. The country wanted to debate the NHS, the Labour party wanted to debate the NHS. The media did not cover the NHS.

 

http://www.electionanalysis.uk/uk-election-analysis-2015/section-1-media-reporting/the-horse-race-contest-dominated-tv-news-election-coverage/

 

 

You're not the only one getting bored I'm not bothering reading the rest of your guff.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

Corbyn has become like Trump to his supporters who refuse to accept any criticism of him.

 

He was decimated at the election as the public rejected him and his terrible campaign. Now if you’re claiming that all of those people deserted Labour because the media told them to then you’re saying these people are thick and can’t see through the messaging, which is truly repugnant and position the working class as unthinking serfs with no minds of their own. So they are too thick to think for themselves and see what Jezza offered, is that right?

 

The fucking arrogance of it.

 

Labour were destroyed because of Corbyn and his leadership and no amount of revisionism, double think, blaming or deflection will ever change that.

 

 

 

[Megadrive Man]

1 hour ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Corbyn has become like Trump to his supporters who refuse to accept any criticism of him.

 

He was decimated at the election as the public rejected him and his terrible campaign. Now if you’re claiming that all of those people deserted Labour because ‘the media’ told them to then you’re saying these people are thick and can’t see through the messaging, which is truly repugnant and position the working class as unthinking serfs with no minds of their own. So they are too thick to think for themselves and see what Jezza offered, is that right?

 

The fucking arrogance of it.

 

Labour were destroyed because of Corbyn and his leadership and no amount of revisionism, double think, blaming or deflection will ever change that.

 

 

 

I was a strong supporter of Corbyn and I agree that there are a number of his supporters that are completely blinkered to his weaknesses. He was a reluctant leader, he had a number of questionable things about his past that put the public off and didn't fit the template/path that normally leads to becoming a prime minister. 

 

Its nonsense to say that Labour was decimated because of him and his campaign though. Brexit was the key issue at the last election, and Labour had no where to go with it. Nearly all the marginal seats were areas that voted leave. They weren't going to vote for any party threatening to take Brexit away from them. I think every seat that they lost (except maybe 1?) was in a leave area. The pro leave areas wanted a leader that felt passionately about Brexit. That's the only reason Boris Johnson got the nod from the Tories .

 

Even the 1997 version of Tony Blair wouldn't have won the last election as Labour leader. By the time the election came round he would have been smeared as Brexit blocker Blair with the weird wife, the man that doesn't care about democracy, the man that wants us to join the euro etc.

 

The data is very clear on this. If you look at the last 3 elections, in 2015, Ukip got around 3.8 million votes (12.6%) in 2017 they collapsed to less than 600k (1.8%) Labour went up from 30% to 40% Tories moved from 37% to 42% in 2019 Labour went down to 32% and the Tories only went up slightly by 1.3% 

 

The Ukip/leave voters are the difference. A Labour party standing on a pro brexit platform would have beaten a Tory party standing on a second referendum platform in 2019. 

 

Moving forward, I don't know what Labour should do for the best anymore. They risk alienating the areas where they are doing well by ostracising Corbyn, Scotland is a lost cause, Starmer isn't popular with Brexit voters, it seems a very very long way back for Labour right now. 

 

 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

Brexit was the main driver in the last election. The medias bias and slandering of Corbyn was all to further help secure a Brexit win for Murdoch etc. 

[Bruce Spanner]

17 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

I was a strong supporter of Corbyn and I agree that there are a number of his supporters that are completely blinkered to his weaknesses. He was a reluctant leader, he had a number of questionable things about his past that put the public off and didn't fit the template/path that normally leads to becoming a prime minister. 

 

Its nonsense to say that Labour was decimated because of him and his campaign though. Brexit was the key issue at the last election, and Labour had no where to go with it. Nearly all the marginal seats were areas that voted leave. They weren't going to vote for any party threatening to take Brexit away from them. I think every seat that they lost (except maybe 1?) was in a leave area. The pro leave areas wanted a leader that felt passionately about Brexit. That's the only reason Boris Johnson got the nod from the Tories .

 

Even the 1997 version of Tony Blair wouldn't have won the last election as Labour leader. By the time the election came round he would have been smeared as Brexit blocker Blair with the weird wife, the man that doesn't care about democracy, the man that wants us to join the euro etc.

 

The data is very clear on this. If you look at the last 3 elections, in 2015, Ukip got around 3.8 million votes (12.6%) in 2017 they collapsed to less than 600k (1.8%) Labour went up from 30% to 40% Tories moved from 37% to 42% in 2019 Labour went down to 32% and the Tories only went up slightly by 1.3% 

 

The Ukip/leave voters are the difference. A Labour party standing on a pro brexit platform would have beaten a Tory party standing on a second referendum platform in 2019. 

 

Moving forward, I don't know what Labour should do for the best anymore. They risk alienating the areas where they are doing well by ostracising Corbyn, Scotland is a lost cause, Starmer isn't popular with Brexit voters, it seems a very very long way back for Labour right now. 

 

 

 

 

And that’s the issue then, he, as leader didn’t want or do this. He couldn’t sense which way the wind was blowing and was listening to people he probably shouldn’t, I think Starmer was in favour of this course of action.

 

He failed as leader because of a difficult and wholly inadequate campaign and this is the reason Labour we’re decimated.

 

I am over egging the pudding somewhat and take on board what you say and will concede that there were other factors at play, but this complete blindness to his clear failing is frustrating. 

[Megadrive Man]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

And that’s the issue then, he, as leader didn’t want or do this. He couldn’t sense which way the wind was blowing and was listening to people he probably shouldn’t, I think Starmer was in favour of this course of action.

 

He failed as leader because of a difficult and wholly inadequate campaign and this is the reason Labour we’re decimated.

 

I am over egging the pudding somewhat and take on board what you say and will concede that there were other factors at play, but this complete blindness to his clear failing is frustrating. 

 

I agree. From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer and others, as well as the Labour membership being around 80% remain, which made it even more difficult for him.

 

He definitely wasn't strong enough at times though. I often wonder if John McDonnell would have a made a better fist of it? He seems to have more fight in him than Corbyn. 

 

Somebody on here called it, Labour need a Klopp type leader. Sadly I can't see any body in the party that is even close to having all of his qualities. 

[Section_31]

Interesting doings at my mate's zoom clp meeting recently which is broadly loyal to Corbyn. They managed to piss off the local union rep by slagging the union off, and slagged off the local Labour Council (pissing off two councillors who were at the meeting). Another member attending for the first time remarked how unpleasant it was and said they won't be going again. That's how these cats roll. The blanket of acceptability gets smaller all the time. Lots of references to Sir Keith though. Great banter.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer

Out of interest, why is this your understanding? Starmer was saying at the time (I posted a video in the Starmer thread a couple of weeks ago about it) that Labour had to accept the result and go about getting the best deal for the UK. It’s be interesting to see what changed. 

[Megadrive Man]

4 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

The election was in December. Corbyn was being told in the previous summer that he was polling badly and would lose Labour the election unless he stood down. He chose to ignore this becuase of a fatal combination of hubris and stupidity. 

 

Yeah I always felt he was in Stannis Baratheon territory going in to that election.

 

Do you honestly believe that any other Labour MP would have done significantly better though?

[Bruce Spanner]

12 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

I agree. From what I understand Corbyn didn't want to go against the referendum result, but he was swayed by Starmer and others, as well as the Labour membership being around 80% remain, which made it even more difficult for him.

 

He definitely wasn't strong enough at times though. I often wonder if John McDonnell would have a made a better fist of it? He seems to have more fight in him than Corbyn. 

 

Somebody on here called it, Labour need a Klopp type leader. Sadly I can't see any body in the party that is even close to having all of his qualities. 

As much as I love the daft old bastard I knew he wasn’t for front line politics when he threw Chairman Moa’s little red book across the dispatch box.

 

Hilarious, but such a bad look...

 

 

[Megadrive Man]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

Out of interest, why is this your understanding? Starmer was saying at the time (I posted a video in the Starmer thread a couple of weeks ago about it) that Labour had to accept the result and go about getting the best deal for the UK. It’s be interesting to see what changed. 

I don't think I saw that? When was that video from? After the referendum result there was a period of time where all Labour Mps were saying that we needed to respect the result, but then between the 2017 election and the 2019 election they moved towards a second referendum. I remember seeing a video at the Labour party conference  with Starmer suggesting a second referendum with remain on the ballot paper;

 

It might have been around this time;

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-deal-keir-starmer-second-referendum-350112

 

I don't blame this on Starmer though, as I said before I don't think Labour really had anywhere to go and it was very popular with the membership. 

[Megadrive Man]

13 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Another member attending for the first time remarked how unpleasant it was and said they won't be going again. That's how these cats roll. The blanket of acceptability gets smaller all the time. Lots of references to Sir Keith though. Great banter.

That is 'the left' in a nutshell right now.  I used to follow quite a few left leaning groups on Facebook/Twitter, but I've unfollowed all of them because its the same tedious unfunny nonsense every single day. 

 

I can understand the anger/frustration that a lot of people feel now, but they have to find a way to channel it in a more positive, constructive way. 

[Section_31]

Just now, MegadriveMan said:

That is 'the left' in a nutshell right now.  I used to follow quite a few left leaning groups on Facebook/Twitter, but I've unfollowed all of them because its the same tedious unfunny nonsense every single day. 

 

I can understand the anger/frustration that a lot of people feel now, but they have to find a way to channel it in a more positive, constructive way. 

Thing is, I'd argue it was channelled just as pointlessly under Corbyn, it wasn't aimed at Labour because Labour was Corbyn, in their eyes, but I'm only going by my own experiences here, they had a penchant for a grandstanding, they'd do stuff like go to the Tory party conference and take selfies of themselves with Labour banners, but come time to knock on doors for a council or crime commissioner election, to leaflet or do any kind of graft that wasn't sharable on twitter, they were conspicuous by their absence. 

[Megadrive Man]

9 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Thing is, I'd argue it was channelled just as pointlessly under Corbyn, it wasn't aimed at Labour because Labour was Corbyn, in their eyes, but I'm only going by my own experiences here, they had a penchant for a grandstanding, they'd do stuff like go to the Tory party conference and take selfies of themselves with Labour banners, but come time to knock on doors for a council or crime commissioner election, to leaflet or do any kind of graft that wasn't sharable on twitter, they were conspicuous by their absence. 

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

[sir roger]

Aye,the centre and the right will sort everything out with their teamworking , thank god we have been saved.

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Looking at the last few pages I would suggest Corbyn 's main mistake was not getting advice on setting up a cult from Keir.

 

[Section_31]

Just now, MegadriveMan said:

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

I know this one guy who's quite respected nationally in those circles, and with unions, loves his Keith banter. He is genuinely an imbecile. He had form for never doing any campaigning, I've never seen him knock a single door, but he used to turn up if a well known Labour figure was in the area, he'd put a suit on especially and get a photo with them then fuck off.  

[Section_31]

4 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Aye,the centre and the right will sort everything out with their teamworking , thank god we have been saved.

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Looking at the last few pages I would suggest Corbyn 's main mistake was not getting advice on setting up a cult from Keir.

 

Isn't it possible to not rate Corbyn but still be on the left, or are you by default right or centre? Pretty close to "with us or against us" type of talk that.

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I'm just glad they are there to point out everything wrong in the world is down to Corbyn so it should be a breeze from here on in. 

Wow. You take Corbyn criticism so personally. As for this mythical ‘right’, of course they’re not going to have plain sailing from here on out. These children of Thatcher still have to clear up the mess Corbyn’s regime left behind. 

[Bruce Spanner]

40 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

Yeah they are definitely big match beauts!

 

I think the majority of young people don't do anything unless it will look good on twitter/tik tok anymore? 

As I’ve alluded to several times I work(ed) on youth engagement and you’d be surprised how involved and engaged they were in 2017, it really hit them hard, as they’d worked so hard and were filled with such optimism, when we didn’t win that I think a lot of them turned against politics, even if only for a while and maybe they’ll all come back fully again.

 

2019 was different there was an entitlement to the ones who I worked with, not sure of it was just those I worked with but I spoke to people in a few different cities and it seemed consistent. They were overbearing, rude and condescending to some of the old heads that were door knocking and manning the stations. It was a strange vibe where opinions were shot down and there wasn’t a sense of togetherness that I’ve know previously. 

 

Now, the ones I engage with, we’re outside election period, so it’s a lot less focused, are still strongly Labour supports and hate the Tories, but it’s a small(ish) sample and obviously not representative.

 

The kids might just be alright.   

[Mudface]

1 hour ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

The election was in December. Corbyn was being told in the previous summer that he was polling badly and would lose Labour the election unless he stood down. He chose to ignore this becuase of a fatal combination of hubris and stupidity. 

Well the election wasn't due until 2022, the Lib Dem's opportunism allowed Johnson to call it in Dec 2019 after months of him being on the ropes.

 

The previous summer was barely 12 months after he'd won the largest number of Labour votes since Blair in 1997, so I don't see why he would have stood down.