Paris shootings

[SasaS]

In America? How bout Roc a Fella.

 

Didn't know the Rockefeller family were behind ISIS. I had doubts about the Koch brothers, but not the Rockefellers. 

[FanchesterCity]

Re read this again - this has happened in an extraordinarily short period of time historically. Their achievements do not need to be defined as positive by you, only to them and I reckon they have made positive advancement towards their aims.  And I can recognize the magnitude of what they have achieved while abhorring it. Thats the problem. 

 

And you didn't answer the question.

 

I did answer the question - I said I personally would not kill myself for a belief. I don't think that changes anything though, some will, some won't.

 

I don't think this has happened in an extraordinarily short period of time. I think it only looks that way because somebody opts to 'brand' a number of disparate Islamic militant groups, and they are now benefiting from the common branding as ISIS/ISIL. It depends what you call a short period of time and what you deem to be extraordinary of course. Nobody can deny there seems to be a real trend towards radicalising young Muslims, but I also think we're just become more adept at seeing it now it's on our own shores.

 

It's 14 years since 9/11, and that wasn't the first act of Muslim terrorism. I don't really see anything of magnitude (above and beyond what was happening 20 years ago). Maybe because it's happening in European cities rather than Middle Eastern ones, we perceive it as a some huge sea change, but is it really?

 

We've been told the Taliban / Al-Qaeda / ISIS / ISIL are all radical groups who need to be stopped. I don't see anything new under the sun really.

 

Let's put it another way.... if they are truly so big and amazingly powerful, we really ought to be seeing a hell of a lot of more terrorism in Europe and they're underachieving. That sounds flippant, I know, but these terrorist attacks are still relatively rare, and the number of victims a drop in the ocean. ISIS pales into insignificance when compared to Germany in the second world war. When we talk about a serious threat to Western civilisation, ISIS are a pitiful joke (so far).

 

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that we, as Europeans have faced far bigger troubles than those that ISIS currently present. We're right to be concerned about them, and right to seek ways of neutralising them, but in the grand scheme of things, they've hardly hurt us at all.

[TheHowieLama]

Didn't know the Rockefeller family were behind ISIS. I had doubts about the Koch brothers, but not the Rockefellers. 

 

You have spectacularly missed the point. Thats ok. 

[ZonkoVille77]

Now I know that this was atrocious and the work of pure evil but for fuck sake the OTT outrage is disgusting. Minutes silence at sporting events, heads of state all piping up, Google having a black armband on its front page. The same amount or greater are killed daily by western bombs and not a single thing said. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

[Jairzinho]

We probably would have been far better off leaving Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad well alone to oppress and kill their own people as they wanted. But we are where we are.

 

A lot less people would have died, Iraq and Libya wouldn't be terrorist breeding grounds, and the threat of attacks in Europe would be drastically reduced.

 

But the UK/US/France knew this when they started bombing them, they just didn't care. It was more important to ensure that no-one in the Middle East started doing things that weren't entirely in the interests of the rich Western elite. Like, for example, building a huge water project, or floating the idea of a gold backed African currency. You know, stuff that would actually benefit the populations of those countries, as opposed to the Bilderberg lizards.

[stringvest]

We atheists need to build a Death Star, all move into it with all the animals, and then have the religious types witness the power of our fully-operational battle station.

 

We can then move on to a new system with a habitable planet, and start again.

 

my mate is called Noah cos he's always in a nark.

[TheHowieLama]

ISIS pales into insignificance when compared to Germany in the second world war. 

 

Ummmmkay. Good bantz.

[Jairzinho]

Now I know that this was atrocious and the work of pure evil but for fuck sake the OTT outrage is disgusting. Minutes silence at sporting events, heads of state all piping up, Google having a black armband on its front page. The same amount or greater are killed daily by western bombs and not a single thing said. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

 

43 died in Lebanon because of an explosion on Thursday.

 

Don't you remember the huge outpouring of...oh, right.

[Anubis]

We probably would have been far better off leaving Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad well alone to oppress and kill their own people as they wanted. But we are where we are.

Is that why we went in? Explains all our current interventions in Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Israel, and The Congo.....

[Captain Turdseye]

Now I know that this was atrocious and the work of pure evil but for fuck sake the OTT outrage is disgusting. Minutes silence at sporting events, heads of state all piping up, Google having a black armband on its front page. The same amount or greater are killed daily by western bombs and not a single thing said. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

I'm pissed off at Dave for not changing everybody's avatars to the French flag.

[SasaS]

You have spectacularly missed the point. Thats ok. 

Apologies. It happens with small, fast moving targets.

[Bobby Hundreds]

At least Guy Fawkes was ambitious with his targets. Just saying..

 

The worrying thing is it's just pure gold to governments these terrorist attacks, as are drone strikes to the terrorist leaders. As clichéd as it is but it really is startling how familiar much of Orwells writing has become, It's like 1984 is the aftermath of the pigs dining with men. We are so easily manipulated and led, not just the west or any one religion but all of us, humans. We need signposts and directions for every single step we take and generally we let fucking psycho's write the signs. None of the actions that could be taken to at least make things harder for ISIS will be taken because the money and contracts are far more important to governments than peoples lives.

[FanchesterCity]

Didn't know the Rockefeller family were behind ISIS. I had doubts about the Koch brothers, but not the Rockefellers. 

 

All terrorist groups receive funding from somewhere - either through the state, or wealthy individuals. Usually, someone's playing politics and stands to benefit from destabilisation or regime change in a region.

 

We backed the Taliban when it suited us.

 

If you can cut their funding, you cut their effectiveness, but that's an entirely different war going on. Eventually though, to still end up a load of factions operating under one common banner whilst is suits. It's why we have ISIL and ISIS as well as IS (because each group still wants a bit of recognition in their own right) and then different factions will start securing their own funds and won't want to share. Almost every religion ends up with factions, and every terrorist group does likewise. This is a mixed bag though, because it means the funding becomes more diverse with more specific aims too. i.e. the funding for IS in Syria would expect different outcomes than the funding in Africa. 

[TheHowieLama]

Apologies. It happens with small, fast moving targets.

 

If you want to start somewhere in the discussion with destabilizing the Middle East on account of resources - start with BP.  Of course that would be an assumptive name - so dont start there.

[halewood pete]

My enemies enemy is my friend

[Guest Pistonbroke]

We probably would have been far better off leaving Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad well alone to oppress and kill their own people as they wanted. But we are where we are.

 

 

I was having the same conversation with the wife whilst walking the dogs earlier. No doubting that Saddam was a a right fucking bastard but did the West actually go into Iraq due to his misdemeanour's against innocent people in the Middle East? Nope, it was always about oil etc and opening up the Middle East to arms sales. We could easily have just left it to the Middle east to sort things out themselves. If a dictator pushes things too far then they are sooner opr later removed by those around them, no need for the west to play sheriff. 

 

Certain people are going to be loving it all as it suits their agenda to get out of Europe and stopping bloody foreigners from invading the good old UK. The likes of Farage will be working overtime on his next speech, the fucking cunt. 

 

Now I know that this was atrocious and the work of pure evil but for fuck sake the OTT outrage is disgusting. Minutes silence at sporting events, heads of state all piping up, Google having a black armband on its front page. The same amount or greater are killed daily by western bombs and not a single thing said. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

 

Gives the News something to go on about for weeks, especially when it is on the doorstep of us supreme and goody two shoe westerners. I've kept away from most of the news today apart as watching modern day journalism/TV on such things is like watching some crap director making a shit film, as long as the cunts get a story. They just send reporters everywhere asking questions to victims families or those who survived and putting puppy eyes on as if they fucking care, leeches, the fucking lot of them. Then the press tomorrow will be pages of fucking pointless diagrams etc explaining what went on, what weapons were used blah blah, they treat the public as if we are all related to Joey Essex and we don't know fuck all without the cunts explaining things with pretty pictures etc...fucking hate them. 

[TheHowieLama]

My enemies enemy is my friend

 

Dont hate the playa, hate the game.

[FanchesterCity]

Ummmmkay. Good bantz.

 

The point was that we're over-egging the significance and impact of ISIS in Europe. Of course, terrorist acts are appalling, but we've seen a lot worse tragedy than a measly little group of terrorists on the streets or Paris or London. ISIS might be being held up (by some) as some amazing group, but they are militarily very weak. Despite their weakness, they are militarily and politically difficult to defeat (quite possibly impossible).

 

If people want to claim / believe they are amazing masterminds, so be it. I beg to differ though. 

 

I offered the comparison with Germany as an illustration of threat levels and how insignificant ISIS are when compared to the threat level Germany created during both World Wars. Germany was a serious problem, ISIS are an irritant. Still need dealing with (as best we can), but they aren't military masterminds, nor are they political genii, and they don't have us quaking in our boots.

[magicrat]

Now I know that this was atrocious and the work of pure evil but for fuck sake the OTT outrage is disgusting. Minutes silence at sporting events, heads of state all piping up, Google having a black armband on its front page. The same amount or greater are killed daily by western bombs and not a single thing said. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

 

If you know it was an atrocious evil act then its not surprising people want to pay their respects whether or not you consider it hypocritical given the bombings in Iraq and Syria, Personally I find the whole creed of these Sunni extremists totally abhorrent . Their willingness to destroy people of all faiths that don't fall in line, their treatment of women, their rejection of anything we would call civilization and crucially their

mission to attack western societies, I don't think there is much choice but to deny them territory to operate from . I know all the arguments that we should never have interfered in Iraq which i fully agree with but leaving it in its current state to fall to ISIS is just going to leave a bigger task down the line,   

[SasaS]

The point was that we're over-egging the significance and impact of ISIS in Europe. Of course, terrorist acts are appalling, but we've seen a lot worse tragedy than a measly little group of terrorists on the streets or Paris or London. ISIS might be being held up (by some) as some amazing group, but they are militarily very weak. Despite their weakness, they are militarily and politically difficult to defeat (quite possibly impossible).

 

If people want to claim / believe they are amazing masterminds, so be it. I beg to differ though. 

 

I offered the comparison with Germany as an illustration of threat levels and how insignificant ISIS are when compared to the threat level Germany created during both World Wars. Germany was a serious problem, ISIS are an irritant. Still need dealing with (as best we can), but they aren't military masterminds, nor are they political genii, and they don't have us quaking in our boots.

ISIS have not hurt the West so far significantly and this is why this latest series of attacks is so important and different. Their strategy was, unlike Al Qaida's, to create a "liberated territory" in their caliphate, where radical Islamist could live out their dreams and fantasies, religious, societal, even sexual, a place "on Earth as it is in Heaven". Previous organizations offered only acts of martyrdom whilst leaving in the West, surrounded by the infidels, the kufar. This caliphate is then seen as a focal point radical Islamists would flock to defend, and an actual space the West would seek to destroy, thus bringing about the final big confrontation they dream about. It was always on the cards they would eventually attack the West, when they decide they have reached their potential locally, in terms of expanding the territory. I think this moment is now upon us. Since the ISIS membership is not so homogenous as it may appear, it is possible that certain factions may desert this super radical death cultist ideology, for example Iraqi Sunnis would rather control northern Iraq than fight to the last man against the rest of the world, some of the Syrian Islamist groups which joined them just because they emerged as the main military force etc.

[TheHowieLama]

The point was that we're over-egging the significance and impact of ISIS 

 

I think the point is you are buying into the idea that they are the latest in a rag tag bunch of brainwashed malcontents, splinter groups with no cohesion.

 

I don't.

[Bjornebye]

my mate is called Noah cos he's always in a nark.

You helped him build it

[TheHowieLama]

ISIS have not hurt the West so far significantly and this is why this latest series of attacks is so important and different. Their strategy was, unlike Al Qaida's, to create a "liberated territory" in their caliphate, where radical Islamist could live out their dreams and fantasies, religious, societal, even sexual, a place "on Earth as it is in Heaven". Previous organizations offered only acts of martyrdom whilst leaving in the West, surrounded by the infidels, the kufar. This caliphate is then seen as a focal point radical Islamists would flock to defend, and an actual space the West would seek to destroy, thus bringing about the final big confrontation they dream about. It was always on the cards they would eventually attack the West, when they decide they have reached their potential locally, in terms of expanding the territory. I think this moment is now upon us. Since the ISIS membership is not so homogenous as it may appear, it is possible that certain factions may desert this super radical death cultist ideology, for example Iraqi Sunnis would rather control northern Iraq than fight to the last man against the rest of the world, some of the Syrian Islamist groups which joined them just because they emerged as the main military force etc.

 

Good post on the foot soldiers - you truly believe that strategy/goal is borne from isis?

[Guest Pistonbroke]

At least Guy Fawkes was ambitious with his targets. Just saying..

 

The worrying thing is it's just pure gold to governments these terrorist attacks, as are drone strikes to the terrorist leaders. As clichéd as it is but it really is startling how familiar much of Orwells writing has become, It's like 1984 is the aftermath of the pigs dining with men. We are so easily manipulated and led, not just the west or any one religion but all of us, humans. We need signposts and directions for every single step we take and generally we let fucking psycho's write the signs. None of the actions that could be taken to at least make things harder for ISIS will be taken because the money and contracts are far more important to governments than peoples lives.

 

Unfortunately too many people take things at face value, they can't think for themselves and need the supposed safety net for everything. They go along with shit like the snoopers charter as they truly believe it is for their own personal safety. 

[Red Phoenix]

What about white people, should they condemn other white people who are being racist? They do and it has helped immensely in upgrading the mindset and resetting behavioral norms to something better than it was. It's not a question of 'why should they have to' it's a question of 'why the hell wouldn't they?'

 

I get your point. I agreed at first, thinking that I was just sick of decent Muslims having to put up with the crap they have done. But now I'm at least half back to where I was. Yes, why the hell wouldn't they? That's fine. But it should be a fucking no-brainer that the vast majority of them want fuck all to do with any of this terrorist crap, and people that don't get that should know better.

 

Western governments are anti-Muslim, they're creating terrorism by their imperialist actions, allowing Saudi groups to fund terrorism, allowing Turkish groups to basically support terrorism in whatever form they feel like, and so on. The focus should also be on the governments and how they've helped create this, how they allow it to continue and flourish with their illegal actions in other countries, but nope. The focus by the complicit media is still about Muslims. They're working with the government to create a seriously nasty and oppressive atmosphere, and it suits them as they carry on with more bombs, upgrading the surveillance state, upgrading fear.

 

New example : U.S. gov/military have just bombed Libya again. "Yeehaw! We bomb wherever the fuck we want 'cos fuckin 'merica!"