Bob Crow has passed away

[Rico1304]

Ha ha it's started!!!

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I'd spend less time on the tiny percentage of people with money and a council house and more time worrying about the vast inequality in this country and the reasons for it.

[stringvest]

I'm not advocating them losing their jobs I just think they're way overpaid, a salary range of £44k-£60k is ridiculous, you're making out like they're some working class heroes, that is corporate banking relationship manager ranges, next you'll be saying bankers should be striking to get bigger bonuses.

These people are responsible for the safety of thousands of people every day. I'd say they were more deserving of their salary than some pen pusher in a bank.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

 

How else would you describe high pay except in relative terms?

 

Well, yes, but there are other factors to consider. You need to start off by looking at it in the context of where they live. There's no point judging his wage against the rest of the country. It's no more relevant than judging him against the average Ugandan's pay.

 

By my marker, you're much less highly paid when you're earning 25k in New York or London than you are earning 25k in Addis Ababa.

 

Whilst I do think he is well paid, he isn't that well paid relative to his cost of living or relative to the wages those around him are earning.

[stringvest]

Not like you to skew things, SD. Interesting Guardian article which ties in with what we're seeing here.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2010/oct/16/income-45000-pounds-does-not-go-far

There you go.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Because the general consensus is that it's a better indicator.

 

This refers to household income, but the implications are the same:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

 

The median income is considered by many statisticians to be a better indicator than the average household income as it is not dramatically affected by unusually high or low values.

 

 

It wasn't really about what's fair and what isn't. I was just challenging the idea that tube drivers aren't in the upper echelons of earners.

 

Also I think the idea that lots of people earn buttons because Philip Green earns billions is misguided.

 

See that's your problem right there.

 

Statisticians will use the number that sells their argument better than the one they should use, which is the average.

 

I am below the average wage and I will be miles behind the median wage when the other half statutory maternity pay kicks in and then gets made redundant when her maternity finishes in December this year

 

.

[Strontium]

Statisticians don't have an "argument". Their job is to present facts in as useful and objective a manner as possible.

[VladimirIlyich]

Statisticians don't have an "argument". Their job is to present facts in as useful and objective a manner as possible.

Lies,damn lies and statistics has never been so apt.

[Jairzinho]

Lies,damn lies and statistics has never been so apt.

 

Haha, yes. A lie about statistics.

[Torvald Utne]

That article is complete garbage, the mean is completely irrelevant, take a sample of 100 people, 99 earning £10k and one (the 1% if you like) earning £1m... would it be fair to say the average salary is £20k?

So your all agreeing that the average salary here is £20k and that the one high earner does not skew the results but in fact gives a fair representation of salaries earned?

 

Also bus drivers are responsible for the safety of thousands each day but don't have the stranglehold required to push up their salaries, actually I'd say someone driving a bus in London has far more responsibility than someone pressing start and stop on tracks.

[Jairzinho]

Yeah, bus drivers should get paid more.

[stringvest]

So your all agreeing that the average salary here is £20k and that the one high earner does not skew the results but in fact gives a fair representation of salaries earned?

 

Also bus drivers are responsible for the safety of thousands each day but don't have the stranglehold required to push up their salaries, actually I'd say someone driving a bus in London has far more responsibility than someone pressing start and stop on tracks.

 

so bus drivers should be paid more.  No argument here.

[VladimirIlyich]

so bus drivers should be paid more. No argument here.

And Nurses and Schoolteachers,BinMen,hell everybody who performs a useful public service should.

It would only be recouping the money they have had taken out of their pockets to make the richest even more rich. I mean,how many more spare bedrooms do you need!

[Torvald Utne]

So who decides how much is more and what is fair?

[stringvest]

I don't know, fungus.  Having said that, I would renationalise the trains and metropolitan bus services so in that case it would be the government.  

[Torvald Utne]

Agreed

 

So your all

Fucking pleb!

[Stu Monty]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

 

Since the mid-1990s, the incomes of the top 0.1% have grown by £461 a week or £24,000 a year. By contrast, the bottom 90% have seen a real terms increase of only £2.82 a week or £147 a year.

 

If you're moaning about Bob Crow you're probably missing the bigger picture.

[Stu Monty]

Statisticians don't have an "argument". Their job is to present facts in as useful and objective a manner as possible.

 

Their job is to present facts in a way that best pleases their employers. Or they cease to be employed.

 

I asked why you chose the median for the argument. Personally.

[Torvald Utne]

Their job is to present facts in a way that best pleases their employers. Or they cease to be employed.

 

I asked why you chose the median for the argument. Personally.

Speaking of presenting facts in a manner to suit, those figures above probably translate to a smaller increase as a percentage of current salary for those high earners than for the rest of us

[stevebaby]

So your all agreeing that the average salary here is £20k and that the one high earner does not skew the results but in fact gives a fair representation of salaries earned?

 

Also bus drivers are responsible for the safety of thousands each day but don't have the stranglehold required to push up their salaries, actually I'd say someone driving a bus in London has far more responsibility than someone pressing start and stop on tracks.

When I started working for the New South Wales Railways I planned to apply for a train drivers job as soon as I could. A cushy, well paid job I thought. Easy money I thought. Once I found out the realtities of the job I quickly changed my mind.

The first thing I discovered was...drivers cabins don't have toilets. In the 21st century, drivers have to use a bucket if they can't wait until their single meal break of 20 minutes. Drivers cabins always stank of piss. The second reality was their start and finish times. Someone has to drive the first and last trains of the day.and although rail employees had a free pass, mostly they had to drive to work and fair enough they mostly avoided peak hour traffic, but I know what it's like to get up at 3 am in winter and drive to work and it wasn't fun. It's even less fun if you have to drive 80 miles each way, which many did because they couldn't afford to live near their depots They didn't work fixed rosters, so they frequently didn't know from one day to the next what shift they might be on the next day.

The third reality was the sheer technical complexity of the knowledge that drivers need to have.Railway signalling systems are difficult to learn, and regulation were amended daily. Drivers needed to know every one of those amendments and every variation of safeworking practice and god help them if they ever made a mistake. They were hung out to dry. All those rules and regulation were contained in a book known as the General Appendix of Safeworking. It was 4 inches thick and written in small print and they had to know all of it.

There was a Coroner's enquiry after an Intercity 125 ran up the arse of another train. The NSW railway did everything they could to blame the driver, even hiring a couple of QCs to avoid taking the blame for a faulty signalling system  I'll never forget the Coroner's comment..."I have

spent a lifetime studying complex legal documents and specialist medical reports. For the life of me I cannot make any sense of the General Appendix. How the Railway expects drivers with a tenth grade education to do so is beyond reason." I was at a union meeting with management when the news came through. When the district manager was informed he asked if the drivers had been killed. When told that they hadn't, he remarked "What a pity. We could have blamed it all on them.". In every accident, the driver always wore the blame and was frequently prosecuted.

And the last thing was realising that if I became a driver, I was probably going to kill someone.Most of the drivers I knew had run over someone and killed them. They were mostly suicides which the driver couldn't possibly avoid, but the Railway always tried to blame them. One of the drivers I knew had killed 7 people in 20 years. He said he didn't even try to stop anymore, because it's usually impossible to stop the train in time and a panic stop only risks injury to the passengers. One driver had to bring his train to a halt with his head out the window...the windscreen was obscured by spattered body parts and blood.

Most people can be excused for thinking that it's an easy job. On the face of it, it does indeed look like just pushing a start lever and applying the brakes,and I had pretty much the same impression as you, but there is a lot more to it than that. It's not easy at all.

I hope you don't take this as a personal criticism.It isn't, and if my poor writig makes it appear that way, I apologise.  I'm just trying to clear up a few common misconceptions about the job. They earn every cent.

spent

[Stu Monty]

Speaking of presenting facts in a manner to suit, those figures above probably translate to a smaller increase as a percentage of current salary for those high earners than for the rest of us

 

That could well be true. I'd very much doubt that wealth inequality isn't increasing and would also question the reported incomes of the 0.1% as opposed to their actual incomes.

 

Either way, Bob Crow having a holiday is probably not the main issue with the country, is it?

[Strontium]

Their job is to present facts in a way that best pleases their employers. Or they cease to be employed.

 

I asked why you chose the median for the argument. Personally.

 

I already told you why I chose the median. Because it's a better measure. The standard measure. Like it makes a shred of difference to the point anyway.

[Rotpeter]

Their job is to present facts in a way that best pleases their employers. Or they cease to be employed.

 

I asked why you chose the median for the argument. Personally.

Because he's economically literate and hence understands that income is not symmetrically distributed making the median a better choice for representing central tendency.

[Strontium]

Yeah, bus drivers should get paid more.

 

This will mean higher fares, of course.

[stringvest]

not necessarily - not for a nationalised industry.  Liverpool Corporation / MPTE bus services, before they were outsourced, were fantastic.  Not only were fares less expensive in real terms, but the bus services were co-ordinated, reliable, frequent and efficient.