You've got to give Kenny the chance to give this team an identity

[Horus]

What do you mean 'again'? Give examples.

 

"Again" was meant in the way that you have your own truth, and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. There is no grey in your world.

 

Not true, but in "horus world" you can convince yourself of that. You laid the blame for the ban at the feet of Suarez and not at the feet of those responsible.

 

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read. Suarez used the word, no one else. He was ignorant to use it, but in no way was he racist. Where is our responsibility? We blame everyone for our failures year in, and year out, yet we mock the bitters.

 

 

Again, in your world you may convince yourself thats what it means however, in the world of the real people it means I thought your post was stupid, ignorant and self serving - you have at best, completely ignored the whol FA report and at worst, ignored it to provide yourself with a platform to make a senseless aregument. YOUR ignorance comes from the stance of so many little Englanders that 'the foreigner has come to our land, used his own standards and said something that we can (if we work hard enough at) take exception to and point the finger at proving that we Englanders are always right and they're wrong regardless of the facts!

 

Accusing me of being a little Englander is bizarre. Anyone who knows any of my other posts would tell you, you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. The rest of that, much like you, is pretty meaningless. It's got nothing to do with the FA report. Suarez used the word he did, and he shouldn't. He deserved a ban (maybe 3 games max) because of his ignorance, not because of racism.

 

 

Is this some of the Horus reasoning I'm getting used to?

 

Only a child would resort to "I know you are, what am I?

 

Ignorance does nothing for me which is another reason you were negged.

 

Explain my ignorance, which I asked you to do in my last post. Instead, you resorted to calling me a little Englander with the negging comment of "soft cunt".

 

 

 

There you have it - any foriegners coming over here can't use their own standards and customs because we're English and we're right.

 

Full circle, back to little Englander (I'm actually French). You've not justified a single comment in that abortion of a post, but yet I'm sure in your own head, you think you've taken me to the cleaners.

[Kennys_spell]

This is what baffles me NV.

 

I have read a few posters saying they worry about Kenny not having an established scouting network, but surely this is over-complicating things & anybody with eyes who watches a decent amount of games on tv can see there is better value out there at relatively reasonable prices.

 

I wince to think that we could probably have had Cisse & M'Vila & had change from Downing & Henderson.

 

The choice of Downing/Henderson/Adam/Carroll wasn't a choice of skill level rather a choice on nationality.

 

Choose British is/was the policy.

[sir roger]

The choice of Downing/Henderson/Adam/Carroll wasn't a choice of skill level rather a choice on nationality.

 

Choose British is/was the policy.

 

After this season, you would hope 'was'.

[Kennys_spell]

"Again" was meant in the way that you have your own truth, and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. There is no grey in your world.

 

Where in any of my posts before this have I said you were 'wrong'? I did ask for some examples which alas were not provided, I'm sure it was an oversight that you will be more than willing to fix.

 

 

 

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read. Suarez used the word, no one else. He was ignorant to use it, but in no way was he racist. Where is our responsibility? We blame everyone for our failures year in, and year out, yet we mock the bitters.

 

This reply makes me believe you haven't even read the FA report. Yet you call him ignorant.

 

 

 

 

Accusing me of being a little Englander is bizarre. Anyone who knows any of my other posts would tell you, you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. The rest of that, much like you, is pretty meaningless. It's got nothing to do with the FA report. Suarez used the word he did, and he shouldn't. He deserved a ban (maybe 3 games max) because of his ignorance, not because of racism.

 

Showing ignorance again there - let me explain. The word used by Suarez was south american spanish - there is no English equivalent of that word but is sounds or can be made to sound a little bit like an English word that is insulting to a particular race - Hang the Witch! Hang the Witch!!!!

 

 

Full circle, back to little Englander (I'm actually French). You've not justified a single comment in that abortion of a post, but yet I'm sure in your own head, you think you've taken me to the cleaners.

 

More ignorance - "Little Englander has nothing to do with the Nationality - it is to do with the ignorant outlook of the beholder and the belief that a foriegner can't use their own customs and language in any given situation.

 

Carry on if you like but if you do, a hint - to disprove ignorance you should try at all costs to not use ignorance as a tool.

[smilezzz]

After this season, you would hope 'was'.

 

Thats the problem with this approach. The British footballer was once seen as one who would lay his life down for the game. The sort that would run through walls for the team he plays for, your typical Carragher and Gerrard types.

 

Truth be told, these days, your average british footballer is more concerned with his hair and marketabillity. They're just as weak as all the "peskey foreigners".

 

Unfortunately, no one told our scouts the truth.

[Il Fenomeno]

The choice of Downing/Henderson/Adam/Carroll wasn't a choice of skill level rather a choice on nationality.

 

Choose British is/was the policy.

 

To be fair to Kenny the policy was there before Kenny came in. It was Rafa that started with it.

 

Gareth Barry, Glen Johnson, Robbie Keane were our main transfer targets in Rafa's last transfer windows. Then you've got the youngsters that were being brought in like Sterling, Wilson and Shelvey.

[xerxes]

The frustrating thing to me is that Kenny got it right when he first came in & then having established the blueprint for success, he seems to have forgotten it completely.

Kenny joined us at our lowest ebb, and when expectations of a fresh new start were at their highest.

 

At first it was about the feel-good factor, and working with the same set of decent players. Carroll wasn't fit, and the only change was the arrival of a very good player in Suarez, and the departure of another who didnt want to be here. That is a massive net plus.

 

I don't underestimate the job that Kenny did last half season, it was about creating the right atmosphere and doing what he could with what he had where he was. There were no decisions to take. But the feel good factor does not last forever, and our final two games were defeats, without scoring, we did not go out on a high, even then the signs that the mentality of the players had not changed were there.

 

The problems have started when Kenny has had to change things, to buy players and set a pattern of play. In both respects he has been found wanting. On saturday he said that Chelsea played exactly as he had anticpated - yet he failed to set up to counter it. The change in the game came when he brought on Carroll who he did not think was good enough to start, and the players did the obvious - bang it into Andy in the box. If that sounds damning it is because it is.

 

I continue to believe that Kenny should stay because I think he is smart enough to recognise his mistakes. But he does need to do his job, a job which he volunteered for.

[Horus]

Where in any of my posts before this have I said you were 'wrong'? I did ask for some examples which alas were not provided, I'm sure it was an oversight that you will be more than willing to fix.

 

 

 

 

 

This reply makes me believe you haven't even read the FA report. Yet you call him ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Showing ignorance again there - let me explain. The word used by Suarez was south american spanish - there is no English equivalent of that word but is sounds or can be made to sound a little bit like an English word that is insulting to a particular race - Hang the Witch! Hang the Witch!!!!

 

 

 

 

More ignorance - "Little Englander has nothing to do with the Nationality - it is to do with the ignorant outlook of the beholder and the belief that a foriegner can't use their own customs and language in any given situation.

 

Carry on if you like but if you do, a hint - to disprove ignorance you should try at all costs to not use ignorance as a tool.

 

I think I'll make this post the last one, because my time is wasted replying to you, when you really can't see beyond your own stupidity.

 

Firstly, calling for reasons from someone else, when you go straight to negging and name calling is beyond stupid. Luckily, your neg raised barely a tickle, proving what most people must think of you, already.

 

Your initial premise, that the press was to blame for Suarez's ban is incorrect, and you can blame cultural nuances all you like. You can pretend you're fighting for Suarez's rights, but you're not, are you? If he was calling Glenn Johnson the same thing (as has also been discussed) then he should have been informed that this shouldn't be used on the pitch. Either way, Suarez/the club are to blame. Not the press.

[Kennys_spell]

I think I'll make this post the last one, because my time is wasted replying to you, when you really can't see beyond your own stupidity.

 

Firstly, calling for reasons from someone else, when you go straight to negging and name calling is beyond stupid. Luckily, your neg raised barely a tickle, proving what most people must think of you, already.

 

Your initial premise, that the press was to blame for Suarez's ban is incorrect, and you can blame cultural nuances all you like. You can pretend you're fighting for Suarez's rights, but you're not, are you? If he was calling Glenn Johnson the same thing (as has also been discussed) then he should have been informed that this shouldn't be used on the pitch. Either way, Suarez/the club are to blame. Not the press.

 

OH dear another oversight - still no examples or explanation of me saying you were wrong. Do try again.

 

As for not being bothered by the neg - can I just say that all the whinging, whining and crying like a little bitch about it shows that it really hasn't bothered you in the least!

 

Here's another hint - go away and read the FA report, put it all together and accept how ignorant you've been here. I'll accept your apology with good grace and move on. But like I said it's not a good idea to try and counter your own ignorance by being even more ignorant.

[Horus]

OH dear another oversight - still no examples or explanation of me saying you were wrong. Do try again.

 

As for not being bothered by the neg - can I just say that all the whinging, whining and crying like a little bitch about it shows that it really hasn't bothered you in the least!

 

Here's another hint - go away and read the FA report, put it all together and accept how ignorant you've been here. I'll accept your apology with good grace and move on. But like I said it's not a good idea to try and counter your own ignorance by being even more ignorant.

 

The arrogance of stupid.

[Kennys_spell]

The arrogance of stupid.

 

Still no examples - so much for your "last post".

[Glen C]

I don't see what kenny has done which has been good enough for him to deserve a season. We've been poor in the league and kenny has been found out tactically both in the league and in Europe. His insistence players that have been poor all season over other players continues to shock me. I've seen nothing that says to me that if kenny stays on it will get better. This has got to be the worst midfield we have had in a very long time and that's down to kenny.

[Bobby Hundreds]

I honestly don't think we've been found out tactically, I think we've been let down badly by players and signed poor ones. But tactically I don't think we've done much wrong of course there's been mistakes and baffling choices now and then but I don't think weve had a manager were we didn't get a couple of those through out a season.

 

Lucas has been a miss even if it's just for the fact his back up is very poor. I honestly feel the players should feel more shame than the manager, these guys are proffesional footballers at the very top level and some of them can't even make a basic pass or control a ball and downing Jesus how did he ever make it as a player with his mental frailty. Kenny's biggest mistake has been the market and putting too much faith in players who little deserve it. Id give Kenny another year so he can rectify it if things are still the same and we are persisting as usual then I'd let him go with a thanks but no thanks.

[Horus]

Still no examples - so much for your "last post".

 

Well you said I was wrong earlier in this thread. Check for yourself. It was only yesterday. I even offered you a £50 HJC bet that Rafa wouldn't be considered when we next need a new manager, but that went swiftly uncommented upon. I've left you to focus on this examples thing, because you have nothing else to offer.

 

I don't generally get ingrained in gobshite internet tennis, but you acting the hard man, then passive aggressive from one post to the next has been fun. Then you you blamed the press for Suarez's ban, but accused me of not reading th FA report.

 

The timeline was that the FA posted the report before the press could justify it. So I'll humour you again, explain how me not reading the report makes the press to blame for Suarez's ban, as you stated.

 

If the Suarez situation was reversed and and a united player had used it against one of our players, I don't believe you would be fighting for that players rights. You wouldn't, you are showing our player bias (nothing wrong with that) dressed up as a freedom fight against xenophobia.

 

So please explain how the press are responsible for Suarez's ban, and remember I'm not your intellectual equal, so you will need to really explain it so someone as stupid as me can understand.

[s(k)aturation]

While we're on the Kenny subject, i'll give my views on it. The way I see it, there are two types of bosses, 1) the head coach and 2) the manager.

 

The first category covers bosses like Benitez, those who are at the forefront of things on the training ground and set their teams up to play in a very specific way for each game. The second category of boss covers the likes of Ferguson, those who appoint coaches and tell them how they want the team to play. They basically give the coaches the guidance and their only presence on the training pitch itself is to observe and make some specific points about certain things. They are then tasked with motivating players and giving them belief.

 

Kenny quite clearly comes into category 2 for me, so therefore I judge him on two main subjects - transfer market and approach of the team. For me, he's failed massively on one of those points but succeeded on the other. We now go into games with the clear mindset of winning. Not just that, but if we are 2-0 up, we don't want to accept that, we want to keep dominating and scoring goals. In my view, this mentality is absolutely crucial in any side that wants to be successful. There have obviously been some games this season where we haven't performed, and some may say that goes against us having a ruthless approach but i'd disagree with that. The only time we've been negative in a game this season is away at Man City in what was a two-legged semi-final. I wasn't happy at the time but I can't argue that it worked.

 

I don't want to spend too much time talking about the chances created, woodwork hit etc because people see it as excuses. Personally I think we've been really unlucky in many games this season and our league position isn't reflective of how dominant we've been in many games, but at the end of the day you can't argue with the league table so you have to accept what it tells you.

 

Overall I think we go into every game with the intention of winning now, and that hasn't always been the case during the last 10 years. I think that people place far too much emphasis on tactics, especially in the Premier League. Do they really believe that Alex Ferguson sits there with a whiteboard and carefully disects a measured game-plan against the likes of Wolves, QPR etc? If you have listened to Gary Neville recently, then you'd see that Fergusons main message for those games is, 'don't lose the title on goal difference'. Or in other words, 'go and twat them'. In that sense, his job is to ensure that the team has the calibre of player capable of creating countless chances and having the mentality to succeed at a big club. I can't argue that we've been poor in a few games this season but that's not been down to a negative approach for me, it's been down to individual performances which brings me back to the first point, the transfer market.

 

No-one can argue against the fact that Kenny got it massively wrong in this aspect. The signings simply haven't performed and we are now in a tough situation because we need to rebuild again. I can understand those who don't trust Kenny to fix things because of what happened last summer but I believe in people learning from mistakes and deserving second chances. Then there's the fact of who Kenny is. I know a lot of people refuse to take that into accept, citing that it's too sentimental etc but I disagree. Although it shouldn't be used to excuse mistakes (and it never will with me) I believe that alongside other factors, it should be considered.

 

So in summary, Kenny is judged on two main points for me and the fact that he's succeeded in one of those allied to who he is and what he's done for this club, means that he gets another go for me. If this summer follows the pattern of last and subsequent results reflect that, then there will be no argument against change from me.

 

Thank you. :thumbup:

[VladimirIlyich]

 

I think I'll make this post the last one, because my time is wasted replying to you, when you really can't see beyond your own stupidity.

 

Firstly, calling for reasons from someone else, when you go straight to negging and name calling is beyond stupid. Luckily, your neg raised barely a tickle, proving what most people must think of you, already.

 

Your initial premise, that the press was to blame for Suarez's ban is incorrect, and you can blame cultural nuances all you like. You can pretend you're fighting for Suarez's rights, but you're not, are you? If he was calling Glenn Johnson the same thing (as has also been discussed) then he should have been informed that this shouldn't be used on the pitch. Either way, Suarez/the club are to blame. Not the press.

 

While i agree with you that KS is being a bit of a drama queen here i think your opinion that suarez calling evra something that hernandez does every day meaning something along the lines of mate,in training is not worthy of any kind of ban.

A talking to about cultural differences is really all that should ever have happened over that incident,especially as there was no caution or red card nor no evidence and on the word of a proven liar and there was no need for any kind of ban let alone 3 or 8 games.

Suarez was ignorant and thats no reason for any kind of ban.

[Maverick]

I honestly don't think we've been found out tactically, I think we've been let down badly by players and signed poor ones. But tactically I don't think we've done much wrong of course there's been mistakes and baffling choices now and then but I don't think weve had a manager were we didn't get a couple of those through out a season.

 

Lucas has been a miss even if it's just for the fact his back up is very poor. I honestly feel the players should feel more shame than the manager, these guys are proffesional footballers at the very top level and some of them can't even make a basic pass or control a ball and downing Jesus how did he ever make it as a player with his mental frailty. Kenny's biggest mistake has been the market and putting too much faith in players who little deserve it. Id give Kenny another year so he can rectify it if things are still the same and we are persisting as usual then I'd let him go with a thanks but no thanks.

 

Of course we've been found out tactically. We concede an early goal to both Fulham and Chelsea and we had no clue how to create chances against teams who aren't interested attacking for a second goal. Plus the amount we chop and change in the course of one game without any improvement suggests we don't know what to do.

 

Regarding Downing's mental frailty either he was already frail before he joined in which case why did Kenny ask Comolli to sign him or he's become frail since joining us which again must be blamed on the manager/coaches.

[Kennys_spell]

Well you said I was wrong earlier in this thread.

 

Really - which post was that, I think if you look back you'll see that I never said you were wrong - it was just in your head. You could tell me which post it was in and I'll apologise unresevedly.

 

It was only yesterday. I even offered you a £50 HJC bet that Rafa wouldn't be considered when we next need a new manager, but that went swiftly uncommented upon.

 

Again, where in my replies of that did I say you were wrong?

 

I don't generally get ingrained in gobshite internet tennis, but you acting the hard man, then passive aggressive from one post to the next has been fun. Then you you blamed the press for Suarez's ban, but accused me of not reading th FA report.

 

The timeline was that the FA posted the report before the press could justify it. So I'll humour you again, explain how me not reading the report makes the press to blame for Suarez's ban, as you stated.

 

What a lot of words just to say "you're right, I haven't read the report and I'm speaking from ignorance" - Just as I said.

 

If the Suarez situation was reversed and and a united player had used it against one of our players, I don't believe you would be fighting for that players rights. You wouldn't, you are showing our player bias (nothing wrong with that) dressed up as a freedom fight against xenophobia.

 

Why would any Liverpool supporter fight for a Man Utd player - what a stupid thing to suggest.

 

So please explain how the press are responsible for Suarez's ban, and remember I'm not your intellectual equal, so you will need to really explain it so someone as stupid as me can understand.

 

Perhaps you don't get the newspapers in your world like we do in ours, but are you honestly saying you saw nothing from the Guardian, the Mail, The Mirror etc about this?

[bertie basset]

Some guys reply on Zonal Marking, I found it interesting:

Been a liverpool supporter all my life and will remain one forever

 

But, even I can see we had the great fortune to appoint a telented Scottish manager in 1959 who set about correcting all the floors in the birtish game that had been exposed by Hungary in 1953 and 1954 and we had a clever board who let him and the other talented coaches as the club get on with it.

 

In the 1970s the whole poject came to fruition. They realised zonal marking made the classic centre half (the proverbial overcoat for the centreforward) redundant and played two wing halves at centreback (Thompson and Hughes first; Lawrenson and Hansen second).

 

The they introduced a classic passing deap-lying Scottish inside forward in the shape of Kenny Dalglish to work the gap between midfield and the front line.

 

Result, 15 years of domination of the domestic game.

 

Today, the game is about money, you correct the long-standing problems of the Brtish game by buying foreigners. We are a club inbedded in the culture of a City that has experienced decades of economic decline. Shanks, Paisley, Fagan and Moran have all gone, as has much of the culture and the routines they nurtured at the club.

 

What I grew up watching was a once in a lifetime experience. Play built from the back, players moving into space to retain the ball, a collective effort to win the ball back when it was lost. All very un-Brtish! I saw my my club lording over everyone else because it had corrected floors in the British game that everyone else took as a unchangeable given.

 

I’ll never see it again. I do not think Kenny has a clue how to turn it around and I doubt he ever really undertsood how Liverpool was built in the first place. If he did he would never have sacked Chriss Lawler, he would not have let Alan Hansen play on right through until his knees gave way and Sammy Lee would still be on the coaching staff. In fact, his first phonecall when he got the job back would have been to Roy Evans and he should have asked if John Toshack (undoutably the best managerial talent to emerge from a Liverpool squad over the last 30 years) was interested in a role at the club too.

 

Long balls to Andy Carroll to get back into the game! Yup it raised by hopes too but really.

 

Bob Paisley only tried it with Michael Robinson as a last resort. As a tactic, it is as un-Liverpool as Roy Hodgson’s rigid 4-4-2.

[Horus]

While i agree with you that KS is being a bit of a drama queen here i think your opinion that suarez calling evra something that hernandez does every day meaning something along the lines of mate,in training is not worthy of any kind of ban.

A talking to about cultural differences is really all that should ever have happened over that incident,especially as there was no caution or red card nor no evidence and on the word of a proven liar and there was no need for any kind of ban let alone 3 or 8 games.

Suarez was ignorant and thats no reason for any kind of ban.

 

I have sympathy with this view. The way I reason it, is that if the situation was reversed, how would I view it? If a united player had used the same phrasing, we wouldn't be on here blaming the press. We'd be, at best saying he was ignorant.

 

It's ok to support the club/team, but we once had a reputation as being knowledgeable fans, but as we've dropped further back, we get more and more bitter and insular.

 

If the club would have come out and held our hands up, explained why Suarez used the word, and apologised, Suarez wouldn't have got the ban, but the minute we started calling people liars (in a public racism row), and ignoring there was any issue at all, we sort of proved our own ignorance.

[Major Tom]

Perhaps you don't get the newspapers in your world like we do in ours, but are you honestly saying you saw nothing from the Guardian, the Mail, The Mirror etc about this?

 

Why don't you just answer his question, Kenny rather than prolonging this nonsense.

[beejay]

I don't know what Kenny can say to the owners at their end-of-season review that will convince them he can move us forward.

 

Our results since the Carling Cup Final is truly shocking, relegation form. We run out of ideas very early and our record of chances-per-goals scored versus conceded must be easily the worst in the league.

 

I don't think we are getting the best out of players individually & collectively, the tactics are non-existent, we have no set pattern of play, we change the shape and balance of the side all the time, players are given roles they are not suited to or played game after game when in poor form while others who do well are inexplicably dropped, the list goes on and on.

 

We have been unbelievably unlucky and this plus the Suarez affair & Lucas' injury has had a corrosive effect on the side as the season has progressed. But the fact that we are still making the same mistakes week in week out suggest the management don't know how to address the problems.

 

We are far, far too slow and ponderous as a team and we lack the purpose & intensity to batter other sides into submission. We are also badly lacking options in key positions especially right wing, centre midfield & striker.

 

Rather than rip the whole thing up and start afresh, I would look for someone who can get the best out of the players we have together with the injection of a few fresh faces with the right attributes to remedy our most glaring deficiencies.

 

Unfortunately, that means a new management team in my opinion because I really don't think Kenny, Clarke & Co are capable of molding this squad into a consistent, strong team nor do they show any sign that they can identify and buy the signings we need to turn us into a high tempo, fast & athletic side.

 

The Bilbao manager, Marcelo Bielsa, has managed to forge just that type of team with limited resources but a fantastic attention to detail and a way of playing that we should aspire to. He also has a flair for getting the best out of top players and bringing through the youth.

 

I also think that Henry & Werner's close examination of Ajax & Bayern Munich might suggest that we may opt to bring in people who are steeped in the club mentality to act as the guardians of the club. Ajax have Cruyff, Bayern have Hoeness, Beckenbauer & Rumennige as senior statesmen representing the club.

 

That should be Dalglish's role maybe with one or two more who can set the standards, Sami Hyypia for example who the players & fans respect and can look up to.

[Horus]

Really - which post was that, I think if you look back you'll see that I never said you were wrong - it was just in your head. You could tell me which post it was in and I'll apologise unresevedly.

 

 

 

Again, where in my replies of that did I say you were wrong?

 

 

 

What a lot of words just to say "you're right, I haven't read the report and I'm speaking from ignorance" - Just as I said.

 

 

 

Why would any Liverpool supporter fight for a Man Utd player - what a stupid thing to suggest.

 

 

 

Perhaps you don't get the newspapers in your world like we do in ours, but are you honestly saying you saw nothing from the Guardian, the Mail, The Mirror etc about this?

 

You're like a child with OCD, no matter what my reply is, you always write the same thing back.

 

For the record, yes, I did read the report. So what now? Please explain how the press got Suarez the ban. I live in England, so I get the same media as you, but I don't understand how the press are responsible (as you claimed) when Suarez used the word, and the FA held a private investigation. Explain it or shut the fuck up.

 

I've done my best to answer your points, but the only point you're focussed on is you calling me wrong - as though that's the important issue here. Anyone reading you would think you're trying to divert attention away from your other points. I don't believe that, though. A man of your intelligence is no doubt about to give me an abject lesson in "the press' responsibility for Suarez's ban".

 

If you're not, then fuck off and shut the fuck up, you interminable cunt.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Horus

[Kennys_spell]

Why don't you just answer his question, Kenny rather than prolonging this nonsense.

 

Because it would be rude as I'm still waiting for answers to my questions.

 

Nevermind - It's tedious for everyone else I know and I apologise. I'll just ignore the jumped up, self opinionated little prick from now on.

[piscinin]

Because it would be rude as I'm still waiting for answers to my questions.

 

Nevermind - It's tedious for everyone else I know and I apologise. I'll just ignore the jumped up, self opinionated little prick from now on.

 

Spoken like a true jumped up, self-opinionated little prick :whistle: