Carra

[Gym Beglin]

Replace Sami or sign Aquilani?

 

Wrong choice.

 

He did make a mistake, yes.

Sacking was obviously the answer, things have worked out preeeeeety well for us.

 

I cannot fathom the depth of resentment towards Rafa had he bought Andy Carroll for £35m.

 

It's not a Kenny vs Rafa thing, before anyone asks, it's just the insane double standards meted out to 'legends' vs wools.

 

 

And for the record, Carra should have got a straight red. We were lucky in that respect.

[chauncey]

Regardless what us goonz from the internetz say the end is clearly not nigh for Carra. At least as far as Kenny and Comolli are concerned it's not, otherwise we'd have spent big on a primed centre back. Not that he needs it, but Coates breathing down his neck (oo-er!) will certainly be incentive enough to up his game and cut out the mistakes. If not, then I don't think it's disrespectful or "spewing bile" to suggest he should be benched.

[zigackly]

I thought a proven quality CB was important this summer and no expense spared if required.

 

Well again, there is some context to examine. In order to comply with FFP the owners can only spend our expected profits plus some £40M over three seasons.

 

I think of the positions we filled, we filled them in pretty much the correct priority because I believe we could have expected top four without having signed a centre half or striker at all. However you would be right in saying this would leave us a year behind in blooding a potential replacement.

 

In my opinion we boxed quite clever getting Coates for the fee we did, as there's no doubt he has quality and is young enough to adapt. I don't expect him to be ready immediately, but I am looking forward to hopefully seeing him against Brighton and then in some of our easier home games after that.

[Hermes]

And for the record, Carra should have got a straight red. We were lucky in that respect.

 

The first foull was against him though. The forward moved into Carragher's body not to the ball. We should have had the free kick. But if the ref wasn't going to give that then yes he should have been sent off.

[zigackly]

I don't understand what agenda anyone could have. Carragher has been one of the greatest ever servants to the club. Does anyone deny that?

 

Kevin D and I discussed it earlier in the thread today Stronts. There's no doubt that disliking Carra for a perceived lack of love for Rafa plays a part for some. You only have to go on a Carra thread on certain other forums to see it right out in the open.

[ritchie]

Replace Sami or sign Aquilani?

 

Wrong choice.

 

On the face of it but we only signed Aquilani as a £5m downpayment with the rest to be paid on the drip, as the Alonso money was going to the bank.

 

Could we have replaced Hyypia properly for that sort of money?

[zigackly]

And for the record, Carra should have got a straight red. We were lucky in that respect.

 

No, he was goalside of him and the attacker had his back to goal, so without the foul it would not have been a clear goalscoring opportunity.

[Durango]

On this site Carragher cannot be criticised in anyway shape or form,

 

no other player (Gerrard included) is afforded any such luxury,

 

I've been fortunate to see some great Liverpool sides over the years,

 

but don't fall for some of the shite on here that he's irreplaceable,

 

believe me he's not,

 

he's been a great servant for the club but that doesn't give him any special dispensation regarding his place,

 

this isn't a knee jerk reaction his form as dipped over the past 18 months,

 

criticising Agger or Skrtel doesn't make Carragher a better player.

[chauncey]

I'm sure any rational poster would agree that fair criticism should be "allowed", whether that regards a manager, a player or the tea lady.

 

My only issue in threads like this is that criticism should be couched in respect for his contribution over the years, and some appreciation of context: to wit that it is not at all clear that we have better options.

 

I also resent those who use their criticism as a mask for an agenda, and there is no doubt in my mind that this goes on.

 

What constitutes fair criticism? How does one couch such criticism in respect? Not having a dig at you here, just wonder what is acceptable when criticising the performances of one of our best ever defenders, as it seems there are some mighty sensitive people on these here boards.

 

Posters in this and the MF thread have been dismissed, variously, as armchairs, Rafa lovers and - bizarrely - anti-scouse (wtf?!?). All for mentioning the mistakes Carra has been making lately. It's sad and stifles discussion.

 

/bile

[Hermes]

On the face of it but we only signed Aquilani as a £5m downpayment with the rest to be paid on the drip, as the Alonso money was going to the bank.

 

Could we have replaced Hyypia properly for that sort of money?

 

That's how most transfers are done. Very few are paid in full up front. They only difference with Aquilani was that Roma chose to make the details public knowledge.

[Johnny Cougar]

On this site Carragher cannot be criticised in anyway shape or form,

 

no other player (Gerrard included) is afforded any such luxury,

 

I've been fortunate to see some great Liverpool sides over the years,

 

but don't fall for some of the shite on here that he's irreplaceable,

 

believe me he's not,

 

he's been a great servant for the club but that doesn't give him any special dispensation regarding his place,

 

this isn't a knee jerk reaction his form as dipped over the past 18 months,

 

criticising Agger or Skrtel doesn't make Carragher a better player.

 

I agree with everything bar the first line Durango.

He can be criticised, but constructive is better than destructive and a grasp of context helps.

All you say is true, but sadly, the reality is that Carra +1 is still our best central partnership until we get someone better and that should have been planned for better over a period of time. That period of time includes Rafa. But Rafa had the extenuating circumstances of working under a pair of cunts who wanted to sell rather than buy and sell at a high level.

Somebody with the ability of Coates but with more experience should have been brought in two seasons ago. But when you have a Kyrgiakos budget you don't get Hummels.

[zigackly]

What constitutes fair criticism? How does one couch such criticism in respect? Not having a dig at you here, just wonder what is acceptable when criticising the performances of one of our best ever defenders, as it seems there are some mighty sensitive people on these here boards.

 

Part of the problem here is that people who do make reasonable criticism (is that better? It means not saying he is past it or shit for instance) become conflated with those that don't, and sometimes only in their own mind. In this thread I see mostly fair criticism, mingled with some very unfair, but it's easy for the debate to crystallise into two sides where the fairest posters either are or feel tarred with the same brush as the worst. This also applies to those defending him, when the darts aimed at the worst critics offend those who weren't a target. Do you see what I'm saying? The debate gets polarised and common sense gets shouted down.

 

People in this and the MF thread have been dismissed, variously, as armchairs, Rafa lovers and - bizarrely - anti-scouse (wtf?!?). All for discussing the mistakes Carra has been making lately. It's sad and stifles discussion.

 

I quite agree, although perhaps some few of them are. See above.

[Rafiagra]

Centre back has to be our weakest spot in the squad. Hopefully Coates will be good but you can't expect too much of someone so young.

 

I think we need to buy one or two top quality centre backs either in Jan or next summer bdecause I don't particularly rate Skrtel, Carra will be ready fornfinishing, and I'd be amazed if Agger's body has proven reliable over the season.

[Johnny Cougar]

Part of the problem here is that people who do make reasonable criticism (is that better? It means not saying he is past it or shit for instance) then become conflated with those that don't, and sometimes only in their own mind. In this thread I see mostly fair criticism, mingled with some very unfair, but it's easy for the debate to crystallise into two sides where the fairest posters either are or feel tarred with the same brush as the worst. This also applies to those defending him, when the darts aimed at the worst critics offend those who weren't a target. Do you see what I'm saying? The debate gets polarised and common sense gets shouted down.

 

 

 

I quite agree, although perhaps some few of them are. See above.

 

This has all the makings and hallmarks of a real twatathon Zig. I'll leave you with your sword and trusty shield to keep you safe from the bile and slobber. Good luck with it.

[Gym Beglin]

I agree with everything bar the first line Durango.

He can be criticised, but constructive is better than destructive and a grasp of context helps.

 

It's interesting, because we have discussed the dip in Carras form for the past 18 months all told.

So, at the beginning of this season, I invariably wanted a more athletic centre back pairing, but with the caveat that there would be some games this season where I'd definitely want Carra starting.

 

Stoke away would have been one of those games...

 

That he lost that physical battle with Walters, it has to make you question what his attributes now are.

[Razoray]

Most people that have played the game know that it's not pace over 50 meters that goes first when you reach your early to mid 30's but your pace over 2-3 meters. Carra was never the quickest to cover the ground but he had quick enough feet for a defender, hence him being a capable defensive midfielder and full back in his early days.

I feel that those quick feet are slowing down which puts him under pressure when turning and being run at. A higher line, less protection from midfield and more attacking full backs have highlighted this regression over the past 2 years and will probably not cease with the way Kenny has the team playing now.

One point though, the mistake v Bolton was just one of those things. It was a miscontrol of an everyday interception and could have happened anyone, including Carra six years ago, when in his pomp. The mistake yesterday however, was more indicative of the increasing chink in this particular legend's armour, the lack of speed on the turn and not so quick feet.

Unfortunately, there is no prostethic for the annals of time and without changing the set-up of the team, he will need to be phased out to reduce the amount of times we are caught for silly goals like yesterday.

[Strontium]

Kevin D and I discussed it earlier in the thread today Stronts. There's no doubt that disliking Carra for a perceived lack of love for Rafa plays a part for some. You only have to go on a Carra thread on certain other forums to see it right out in the open.

 

 

Perhaps Carragher merits flak for his role in ousting Benitez and the subsequent hiring of the (disastrous) English manager he wanted all along.

 

So far as I can see though, that's a separate issue to his performances on the pitch, and I would trust people not to conflate the two.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

Listen,you fuckin clueless Turd,

 

Rush,Fowler and Owen where at one stage, where our best strikers,when they got past their bests they were shipped out,

 

So because Carragher as been our best for a number of years he exempt from being dropped?

 

Do us a favour,

 

goin wank ye Jack Russell!!!

 

Owen want let go because he was past it.

 

He had the club off.

 

Big difference.

[Durango]

I agree with everything bar the first line Durango.

He can be criticised, but constructive is better than destructive and a grasp of context helps.

All you say is true, but sadly, the reality is that Carra +1 is still our best central partnership until we get someone better and that should have been planned for better over a period of time. That period of time includes Rafa. But Rafa had the extenuating circumstances of working under a pair of cunts who wanted to sell rather than buy and sell at a high level.

Somebody with the ability of Coates but with more experience should have been brought in two seasons ago. But when you have a Kyrgiakos budget you don't get Hummels.

 

Your not telling me that,

 

given a run of games Kelly couldn't perform better than Carragher in central defence

[zigackly]

Perhaps Carragher merits flak for his role in ousting Benitez and the subsequent hiring of the (disastrous) English manager he wanted all along.

 

So far as I can see though, that's a separate issue to his performances on the pitch, and I would trust people not to conflate the two.

 

I'd trust most people not to. I feel I must stress anyway that any role he did play was almost entirely incidental.

[zigackly]

Your not telling me that,

 

given a run of games Kelly couldn't perform better than Carragher in central defence

 

Bit of a gamble being as he's played there for the senior team a grand total of once and looked shaky when he did. What if we give him your run of games, blow qualification for the Champions League and then find we still haven't fixed anything? I will trust the coaching staff to make that decision, being as they work day in and day out with the players.

[Durango]

Bit of a gamble being as he's played there for the senior team a grand total of once and looked shaky when he did. What if we give him your run of games, blow qualification for the Champions League and then find we still haven't fixed anything? I will trust the coaching staff to make that decision, being as they work day in and day out with the players.

 

Why is it a gamble?

 

Carragher started out as a defensive midfielder and full back before he found his niche as centre back,

 

Were never going to find a replacement for Carragher, by your logic then,

 

are we?

 

So will I trust the coaching staff to make a decision,but it will be a lot sooner than some on here would have you believe

[zigackly]

Why is it a gamble?

 

Because neither of us has strong evidence that he is up to the job, therefore it's a leap into the unknown as far as I'm concerned, although perhaps your special powers to see into the future mean that you know otherwise.

 

Were never going to find a replacement for Carragher, by your logic then

 

Nonsense; you don't have to outright drop a player in order to blood a new one.

[Durango]

Perhaps Carragher merits flak for his role in ousting Benitez and the subsequent hiring of the (disastrous) English manager he wanted all along.

 

So far as I can see though, that's a separate issue to his performances on the pitch, and I would trust people not to conflate the two.

 

It's one thing to overthrow a "Fat Spanish waiter" and "Liberace love child"

 

Taking on Dalglish, is one popularity contest Carragher wouldn't win

[Skidfingers McGonical]

With the natch thread yesterday and this thread today, I've come to realise there's a lot of wankers on here posting stuff they think they know, bit actually haven't got a clue.

 

The Rafalites, for which I would have been included in myself at one point, blame Stevie and Carra for Rafa going. Plain and simple. ( sorry to bring it up again)

 

There were a lot of things being said by people around Bootle and Crosby who were claiming they were close to Jamie about the situation under Rafa, and Rafa's followers took that as gospel, just like fundamentalist Christians take the Bible literally a God's word. Fucking morons.

 

Get a grip with the attitude towards one of our greatest servants, who I have had the pleasure to play against (fair enough it was. 21 years ago) and watch as a Liverpool player who gave it everything, and still will*

 

I regret saying some the things I said against Carragher during our fans split a couple of years ago. I won't however question him again off the pitch, just like I have rarely questioned him on it. I've criticised performances just like every other player, and rightly so.

 

To many people on here should count themselves lucky that they got to witness a player like Jamie Carragher for the amount of time they have.

 

Oh and fuck of with the 'If he wasn't Scouse' shite. It's tedious, boring and blatantly a false accusation.

 

*Before anyone says I'm being hypocritical as I have questioned Gerrard in the past too, I was wrong with some of that and I called it as I saw it at the time. And I still stand by some of my feelings.