How good is Dirk (Paco style)?

[Paul]

Of course it's not great, but I don't get why he's singled out for it any more than say, Riise, Voronin, Finnan, Hyypia, Carra, Momo? It's the standard Dirk line: oh he works hard, but has poor technique. So oversimplistic it's untrue.

 

In the side ahead of Crouch? For me it would depend how we're playing. As one of a front two, Dirk every time, but as a lone striker, I'd go with Crouch. Saying that though, before today big Pete's been terrible this season.

 

I know you're one of the fairest (not in an 18th century literary meaning) on here, and certainly not one of the belligerent posters.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair point, and I knew I shouldn't really have been posting it at the time, but I was in a terrible mood this morning. Saying that though, I reckon there's deffo some truth in it. Everyone's so caught up in this culture of celebrity and media acclimation that there's no room for honesty, hard work or any virtues other than flair and 'bling'. As Monty once said when defending Dirk, he represents pretty much everything I want from my club and it's players.

 

Paul, you know how much I respect you on here, and I'm always gutted when you're back at school because it's the GF you neglect. It's just that before this season when I saw you were on a thread on here, I'd think 'it's ok, Paul'll be sorting them out,' but for the past few months that's not really been the case.

 

I don't want to get in an argument with you (mainly because I'll lose,) so I'll just say sorry for having a go at the thread. I should have taken it as it was intended.

 

Mate, we're not in an argument - we're just disagreeing. It's a fucking travesty that too many others can't follow our lead and do it without acting like lil' bitches. The forum would be infinitely better if so.

 

As for your point about Dirk being singled out, there are two reasons as far as I'm concerned. The first is that he's a forward and, as I was saying to Cardie earlier, I can accept a forward who's not prolific as long as he's technically great and creates for others (Kenny, for example). I can also accept one who is technically limited (like Owen), but bangs them in. What I can't be happy about a player who is lacking in both areas. It's not that he's shit in either area; it's more that he just doesn't excel in them. The second point is his fee. I know that's not his fault, but I expect more for nearly £10m.

 

I suppose my biggest issue with Dirk is not so much about the player himself, but about Rafa's use of him. I think he plays him too deep and also too often - and at the expense of a (in my view) far superior player who is out of form because of the way he's been handled by the manager.

[Owen]

Mate, we're not in an argument - we're just disagreeing. It's a fucking travesty that too many others can't follow our lead and do it without acting like lil' bitches. The forum would be infinitely better if so.

 

As for your point about Dirk being singled out, there are two reasons as far as I'm concerned. The first is that he's a forward and, as I was saying to Cardie earlier, I can accept a forward who's not prolific as long as he's technically great and creates for others (Kenny, for example). I can also accept one who is technically limited (like Owen), but bangs them in. What I can't be happy about a player who is lacking in both areas. It's not that he's shit in either area; it's more that he just doesn't excel in them. The second point is his fee. I know that's not his fault, but I expect more for nearly £10m.

 

I suppose my biggest issue with Dirk is not so much about the player himself, but about Rafa's use of him. I think he plays him too deep and also too often - and at the expense of a (in my view) far superior player who is out of form because of the way he's been handled by the manager.

 

Ah, so this is what it's like!

 

Right, I get your point now. I think the price is about right as things stand.As we've seen with Torres, Drogba, Tevez etc, if you want a striker who excels at both scoring and creating, you pay the price. The alternative seems to be one or the other - Yakubu: £11mill for a competent goalscorer who does little else for example. Jermaine Defoe would be another.

 

Dirk's somewhere between the two, the creative and the scorer, so excels at neither, but can do both competently.

 

You're right about the issue being how he's used. I think Rafa takes advantage of his workrate to use him in that role. For me, he'd play as he is currently if playing with Torres or Crouch, else he'd be sticking more rigidly up top.

 

Crouch, though, has been horribly off form since pre-season, and really hasn't deserved much of a chance. If he was the only option he'd have been given that chance.

[silverlining]

It never fails to amaze me how much some people rate the likable Dutchman. So, on a scale of one to ten, with one being Josemi and ten being Kenny, how do you rate him?

 

(I know numbers are a very crass way to quantify a player's talent, but it's about the easiest way to gauge the forum view. See it as a sliding scale of LFC talent over the years, if that helps. Where would you place him on that scale?)

 

And it's never failed to amaze me how many people on this site rate Crouch yet slag off Kuyt.

 

The same Crouch who, in his ENTIRE CAREER, has never, not ONCE, managed to score more Premiership goals in a season than Kuyt managed in his first ever season in the Premiership.

 

Mind you, according to many posters here, Sissoko is the best defensive player in the world and worth £20m, Mascherano is the first name on the team-sheet and Gerrard should be dropped.

[RedPower]

How good is Dirk? Not very.

 

Utterly infuriating. 4/10.

[Section_31]

Are you completely and utterly mental? He's one of the most intelligent players we have.

 

When do you see him pulling off a deft flicks, sell the dummy, provide defence-splitting slide rule pass for strike partners etc?

 

The 'sixth sense' that the greats have in abundance (fowler etc) and that a lot of strikers have to at least some extent, is totally absent.

 

People used to slag off lil Luis but he had it, the sense of timing and superb grasp of where and when to get into the box, where the cross was coming from, who was around him etc, even Crouch has it to a far lesser extent - and I'm not a fan.

Cisse didn't have it which is why - despite his ability - he was shit.

 

 

I don't see it in Kuyt either.

[derykw]

I`ve never rated him and didn`t want us to sign him.Nothing he`s done since has altered that view. 5.

[RedKnight]

If it wasn't for his attitude then I'd rate him a lot less. But he's clearly a strong team player and has a great positive sense to his play.

[Owen]

When do you see him pulling off a deft flicks, sell the dummy, provide defence-splitting slide rule pass for strike partners etc?

 

The 'sixth sense' that the greats have in abundance (fowler etc) and that a lot of strikers have to at least some extent, is totally absent.

 

People used to slag off lil Luis but he had it, the sense of timing and superb grasp of where and when to get into the box, where the cross was coming from, who was around him etc, even Crouch has it to a far lesser extent - and I'm not a fan.

Cisse didn't have it which is why - despite his ability - he was shit.

 

 

I don't see it in Kuyt either.

 

But you're talking about instinct there. I'd put Kuyt with the Carras of the world: thinks about the game, has great awareness during the match, and understands exactly what he's meant to be doing. He always plays with his head up - completely different to Cisse and Baros.

[RedKnight]

And another thing, fuck this 'Paco style' it should be Reynolds Style!

[Owen]

Burt Reynolds?

[RedKnight]

I can't believe you had to ask.

[Owen]

How good is Dirk - Reynolds Style!

 

I like it.

[RedKnight]

It's hard not too when things are done Reynolds Style!

[Hamma]

What's wrong with a discussion about a player's quality? Like I said, I know the numbers are crass, but it helps to relate different opinions to each other.

 

Paul, perhaps it would help if some more parameters were established to focus the contributions. Comparing Kuyt to a Red legend, is difficult to measure with any degree of objectivity. I'd suggest identifying other 10million pound strikers and then rating him against them.

[BENIRL]

He is alot closer to Josemi than Kenny!

[Jose Jones]

I've given him a 6. He's all round average at everything for me, but with great work-rate and good intelligence and major penalty taking balls. I think his best position would be right up top as he holds it up ok passes quite well and has a nose to be in the right place for the dirty goals.

The thing is Torres has better pace, finishing and can create his own chances. As Rafa seems to more often than not to play Torres right on the last defender and another striker slightly deeper I don't think we'll ever get the best out of Kuyt. I guess Rafa wants him to work the channels, but then also appear in the penalty box at the right time. It's not happening so far.

 

To comment on Rash's Alan Smith comparison, I would say maybe Darren Bent was a fairer comparison. Playing week in week out for a lesser team would score a bucket full. Not brilliant enough at anything to stand out, and perhaps struggles to step up because of a lack of the extra bit of class.

[Zippy]

But you're talking about instinct there. I'd put Kuyt with the Carras of the world: thinks about the game, has great awareness during the match, and understands exactly what he's meant to be doing. He always plays with his head up - completely different to Cisse and Baros.

 

 

You may be right on that but IMO he doesn't have the ability to consistently take advantage of that awareness. I think the second striker position should be for a player who can hurt the opposition much more than Kuyt can.

[Paul]

But you're talking about instinct there. I'd put Kuyt with the Carras of the world: thinks about the game, has great awareness during the match, and understands exactly what he's meant to be doing. He always plays with his head up - completely different to Cisse and Baros.

 

On the face of it, a comparison between Cara and Dirk makes sense as they have similar qualities. However, it falls down when the demands of their positions are taken into account. Carra is an incredibly effective defender, but Dirk is nowhere near as effective at his job. To be an effective striker requires more than character, effort and resilience.

[Zippy]

On the face of it, a comparison between Cara and Dirk makes sense as they have similar qualities. However, it falls down when the demands of their positions are taken into account. Carra is an incredibly effective defender, but Dirk is nowhere near as effective at his job. To be an effective striker requires more than character, effort and resilience.

 

Agree particularly as Kuyt's position should really be the creative fulcrum of a side where character, effort and resilience should be complimenting touch, technique and creativity.

[Stu Monty]

I haven't really got the time or inclination to try and put right some of the wrongs that I think people are perpetuating in this thread but I would like to just leave a few thoughs for people to ponder.

 

If Kuyt can't go past a man then why did Toure get booked yesterday?

 

If you think that Kuyt has got famously terrible technique then why was he singled out as the best technical player at the club by Mascherano in an interview?

 

He isn't the greatest player in the history of the club, he isn't the worst, but 11 Kuyts would beat any team in the World. One was enough for Barcalona.

[Paul]

I haven't really got the time or inclination to try and put right some of the wrongs that I think people are perpetuating in this thread but I would like to just leave a few thoughs for people to ponder.

 

If Kuyt can't go past a man then why did Toure get booked yesterday?

 

If you think that Kuyt has got famously terrible technique then why was he singled out as the best technical player at the club by Mascherano in an interview?

 

He isn't the greatest player in the history of the club, he isn't the worst, but 11 Kuyts would beat any team in the World. One was enough for Barcalona.

 

No-one with any sense is saying those two things, Stu. Oh, and eleven Dirks? You can't win a 0-0 draw.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*He, he.

[Red Nick]

I think he's Rafa's second worst ever signing IMO

 

Only Josemi is worse

[Rashid]

I think he's Rafa's second worst ever signing IMO

 

Only Josemi is worse

 

No way Nick... I can think of some very poor signings by Rafa...

 

Voronin, Morientes, Pelligrino to name but 3.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I think he's Rafa's second worst ever signing IMO

 

Only Josemi is worse

 

No way Nick... I can think of some very poor signings by Rafa...

 

Voronin, Morientes, Pelligrino to name but 3.

 

You two are the craziest cookies sin the jar.

 

How can Voronin be classed as a bad signing nearly 3 months into the campaign is beyond belief.

 

Your both out to lunch.

[Karl_b]

Aaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha, nice one Nick.