American Politics

[Red Phoenix]

@SasaS We've just witnessed one of the biggest propaganda campaigns in UK history that was a big reason Corbyn lost the election, and you want me to believe that somehow in the US they're not as bad and will fairly let Sanders have a go at being the Dem candidate when his policies are largely the same?

 

It's comical.

[Red Phoenix]

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

 

[Jose Jones]

10 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

 

Going off the quotes in this;

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-arizona-debate-123467

 

The format for the next debate in Arizona — their first since Biden’s blowout Super Tuesday victories — would have the candidates seated for the first time this election cycle and take multiple questions from the audience. In the prior 10 debates, the candidates stood at lecterns and nearly all questions were asked by the professional moderators.

 

“Why does Joe Biden not want to stand toe-to-toe with Sen. Sanders on the debate stage March 15 and have an opportunity to defend his record and articulate his vision for the future?” asked Jeff Weaver, Sanders’ senior adviser

 

 

 

 

It just seems a lot less confrontational to me and will favour the candidate who has the worse record and is not as quick thinking (obviously Biden in my bias opinion). 

 

Once again it is the DNC, "these are the rules, you agree to the rules at the start of the campaign", changing the rules mid campaign.

 

Turns out there won't be an audience asking questions at the debate due to coronavirus concerns, so it's back to moderators questions.

Coronavirus is for Bernie!

 

[TheHowieLama]

18 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

TBF no one who is in line at the closing time is denied - they stay open to process all those votes.

[Red Phoenix]

42 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

TBF no one who is in line at the closing time is denied - they stay open to process all those votes.

Would be good if they had more places open for them to vote at though, waiting hours is insane.

 

Anyway this is about over now. Biden has taken two more states, Michigan is being called off I think until tomorrow but it's not as if it's going to save Sanders.

 

I think there'll come a point soon where socialists deserve to fail if they're going to run in that stupid fucking party, maybe that was Bernie's mistake all along this time around.

 

If Americans are serious about democracy they need to get third parties sorted out and push for ranked voting by the looks of it, same as over here in the UK.

[Red Phoenix]

Some are calling Michigan for Biden now. Early stuff I saw said that it'd be delayed.

[TheHowieLama]

It's over.

[moof]

There’s still a long way to go. You’re really going to send Joe Biden into an election vs Trump? God help you. 

[TheHowieLama]

I haven't voted yet.

But it is over.

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, moof said:

There’s still a long way to go. You’re really going to send Joe Biden into an election vs Trump? God help you. 

 

Even with all of the rigging going on, Biden is still managing to win over a lot of voters now which makes it almost impossible that Sanders can hit the delegates he needs to end it in the first round. At the convention super delegates will seal it for Biden even if Sanders starts turning it around unless some type of miracle happens.

 

Whatever he does now is probably going to be too little too late.

[Red Phoenix]

If he doesn't quit his campaign maybe there's a chance due to how insane things are right now and the state of Biden. Maybe Biden will lose the plot even more than he has been doing but I still think people will just vote for him anyway. I don't like the idea of an old guy losing it in an election campaign being the only reason Sanders wins either, but whatever.

 

 

[Jose Jones]

12 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

If he doesn't quit his campaign maybe there's a chance due to how insane things are right now and the state of Biden. Maybe Biden will lose the plot even more than he has been doing but I still think people will just vote for him anyway. I don't like the idea of an old guy losing it in an election campaign being the only reason Sanders wins either, but whatever.

 

 

This makes no sense, because even if Bernie suspends his campaign he will still have the second most delegates. 

So in the event that Biden carks it, or becomes obviously incapacitated, then the nomination is highly likely to pass down to Bernie anyway.

It certainly looks like the only way Bernie can win is if Biden makes a monumental fuck up of some description though.  

[Red Phoenix]

27 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

This makes no sense, because even if Bernie suspends his campaign he will still have the second most delegates. 

So in the event that Biden carks it, or becomes obviously incapacitated, then the nomination is highly likely to pass down to Bernie anyway.

It certainly looks like the only way Bernie can win is if Biden makes a monumental fuck up of some description though.  

 

I think he means if he stays in the race Biden's flaws could be exposed instead of him not having to do anything. It's hard to imagine how crazy it's going to be when Trump and the Republicans start up on him if/when he wins as well, could turn out to be one of the most farcical election campaigns in history.

[Jose Jones]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I think he means if he stays in the race Biden's flaws could be exposed instead of him not having to do anything. It's hard to imagine how crazy it's going to be when Trump and the Republicans start up on him if/when he wins as well, could turn out to be one of the most farcical election campaigns in history.

 

Biden will just have to be the jovial old guy and so any over the top Trump attack would backfire to just make him look like more of an arsehole.  

Biden is very well known and the Obama administration is getting more and more popular by the day the longer Trump is in power.  So I don't think he would really need to do anything other than just seem vaguely alive.

[Red Phoenix]

5 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Biden will just have to be the jovial old guy and so any over the top Trump attack would backfire to just make him look like more of an arsehole.  

Biden is very well known and the Obama administration is getting more and more popular by the day the longer Trump is in power.  So I don't think he would really need to do anything other than just seem vaguely alive.

 

Well this was a worker he saw yesterday so if he's going to be the jovial old guy in front of Trump he's probably got a bit of practicing to do.

 

 

[Jose Jones]

41 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Well this was a worker he saw yesterday so if he's going to be the jovial old guy in front of Trump he's probably got a bit of practicing to do.

 

 

Yes, not the best. I actually don’t mind him saying the guy is full of shit, but it wasn’t the most coherent argument after that bit.

[SasaS]

11 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

@SasaS We've just witnessed one of the biggest propaganda campaigns in UK history that was a big reason Corbyn lost the election, and you want me to believe that somehow in the US they're not as bad and will fairly let Sanders have a go at being the Dem candidate when his policies are largely the same?

 

It's comical.

At one point you might try to accept the possibility that not everyone wants these policies, some of the time, most of the time, all of the time, for whatever reason. Otherwise you just work yourself into some paranoid state.

Even if Sanders won the nomination and then the presidency, it would be only the beginning, probably not leading to much, without the full support within the party to push through legislation and being fought every step of the way by the opposition and various interests.  

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

At one point you might try to accept the possibility that not everyone wants these policies, some of the time, most of the time, all of the time, for whatever reason. Otherwise you just work yourself into some paranoid state.

Even if Sanders won the nomination and then the presidency, it would be only the beginning, probably not leading to much, without the full support within the party to push through legislation and being fought every step of the way by the opposition and various interests.  

 

The only way people are collectively so fucking stupid on this scale is largely down to mass media propaganda. People are voting against their own interests. Biden vs Trump = corporate candidate vs corporate candidate, shit vs shit.

 

Biden = "Nothing would fundamentally change." That's what people will be voting for.

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

The only way people are collectively so fucking stupid on this scale is largely down to mass media propaganda. People are voting against their own interests. Biden vs Trump = corporate candidate vs corporate candidate, shit vs shit.

 

Biden = "Nothing would fundamentally change." That's what people will be voting for.

 

Surely by now, not least after election results over the past few years, you should be open to the possibility that perhaps most people don't want a revolution, and are quite satisfied with incremental improvements to a system that already works pretty well for the majority? The American left seems to be making all the same mistakes that the British left made in overestimating the appetite for wholesale change.

[moof]

29 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Surely by now, not least after election results over the past few years, you should be open to the possibility that perhaps most people don't want a revolution, and are quite satisfied with incremental improvements to a system that already works pretty well for the majority? The American left seems to be making all the same mistakes that the British left made in overestimating the appetite for wholesale change.

Why do you think they are comfortable propping up a system that is so destructive and cruel? Are the majority of people sociopaths? Or maybe there are some other reasons like RP alluded to 

[SasaS]

5 minutes ago, moof said:

Why do you think they are comfortable propping up a system that is so destructive and cruel? Are the majority of people sociopaths? Or maybe there are some other reasons like RP alluded to 

Maybe they don't think the system is so destructive and cruel as you do, or they don't believe in the offered alternative? Maybe they have different values?

[Red Phoenix]

36 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Surely by now, not least after election results over the past few years, you should be open to the possibility that perhaps most people don't want a revolution, and are quite satisfied with incremental improvements to a system that already works pretty well for the majority? The American left seems to be making all the same mistakes that the British left made in overestimating the appetite for wholesale change.

Being fucked over by the upper classes doesn't work well for the majority, and several of Sanders' key policies are supported by a majority of Democrats. Besides he'd never get all of his policies pushed through the US house and senate, but it'd be good to think that some of it would go through and people would have things working better for them instead of "nothing would fundamentally change."

[Red Phoenix]

One of the key problems with the policies of Sanders and Corbyn seems to be cost and the amount of different things proposed. They announce a set of things and a lot of people lose track, don't think it's realistic and can't work out how it'll be paid for. Maybe if both of them hadn't focused on so many things and instead narrowed it down to a few key issues then said they'd at least try with some of the other things that would've helped.

 

I'm speaking about Sanders in the past tense now because I think he's done. Biden is hammering him in Florida polls I think and some others, if they're right it's well over by this point.

[moof]

10 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Maybe they don't think the system is so destructive and cruel as you do, or they don't believe in the offered alternative? Maybe they have different values?

Maybe they reside in a different reality? Maybe they can’t see what’s right in front of their faces?