The Ships and Boats Thread

[AngryOfTuebrook]

20 hours ago, Gnasher said:

O disagree, pay rates have everything to do with these people being sacked and is at the crux of what we've been talking about.

 

If those foreign agency workers didn't know they were replacing workers before, they certainly do now Angry. 

 

 

The agency workers very obviously could not have been privy to P&O's plans which were kept secret from everyone outside the highest levels of decision-making within the company's executive board.  It's just fucking ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

 

Instead, what we have is workers who have left their homes thousands of miles behind being bussed to their new workplace, only to discover there and then that the jobs they had been recruited for were not vacant posts. 

 

Of course, it's easy for you and me to say "I'd refuse to take the job as soon as I learned it was a scab job"; it's a lot less easy for the workers who are actually in that position.

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The agency workers very obviously could not have been privy to P&O's plans which were kept secret from everyone outside the highest levels of decision-making within the company's executive board.  It's just fucking ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

 

Instead, what we have is workers who have left their homes thousands of miles behind being bussed to their new workplace, only to discover there and then that the jobs they had been recruited for were not vacant posts. 

 

Of course, it's easy for you and me to say "I'd refuse to take the job as soon as I learned it was a scab job"; it's a lot less easy for the workers who are actually in that position.

OK fair enough Angry, maybe I was a little harsh on them in the heat of the moment.

[Arniepie]

1 hour ago, Anubis said:

Grayling. The ultimate example of falling upwards. A man of zero intellect and little imagination, who has been fortunate enough to be born into a position where others will always bat for him and where there will always be a political position or non-executive directorship/consultant role for him because of who he knows, not what he’s capable of.

He has a 17,000 majority. 

Over 30% of the electorate ,in his constituency trust him,to help run this country.

It is truly mind boggling.

[Kevin D]

A lot of balls.
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933

 

P&O Ferries boss Peter Hebblethwaite has admitted to MPs that a decision to sack 800 workers last week without notice broke the law.

 

He said there was "absolutely no doubt" that under UK employment law the firm was required to consult unions before making the mass cuts

 

Asked whether P&O broke the law by not consulting the unions, Mr Hebblethwaite said: "It was our assessment that the change [to staffing] was of such a magnitude that no union could possibly accept our proposal.

 

"So as I say, I completely throw our hands up, my hands up, that we did choose not to consult."

 

He added: "We did not believe there was any other way to do this and we are compensating people in full."

[Creator Supreme]

5 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

A lot of balls.
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933

 

P&O Ferries boss Peter Hebblethwaite has admitted to MPs that a decision to sack 800 workers last week without notice broke the law.

 

He said there was "absolutely no doubt" that under UK employment law the firm was required to consult unions before making the mass cuts

 

Asked whether P&O broke the law by not consulting the unions, Mr Hebblethwaite said: "It was our assessment that the change [to staffing] was of such a magnitude that no union could possibly accept our proposal.

 

"So as I say, I completely throw our hands up, my hands up, that we did choose not to consult."

 

He added: "We did not believe there was any other way to do this and we are compensating people in full."

If they get let away with that without any consequences, that kills off workers rights in Britain for good.

 

They must be sanctioned for this, if they're not, the Unions will have to call for strikes in all employment sectors otherwise they're dead in the water.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Creator Supreme said:

If they get let away with that without any consequences, that kills off workers rights in Britain for good.

 

They must be sanctioned for this, if they're not, the Unions will have to call for strikes in all employment sectors otherwise they're dead in the water.

If I'm not mistaken, the maximum penalty for their failure/refusal to consult with the unions is a fine of £5,000.  It's pocket change.

 

If unions call their members out in support of the sacked workers, they can face the kind of penalties which could bankrupt them.

 

43 years of successive governments attacking workers' rights has brought us here.

[Creator Supreme]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

If I'm not mistaken, the maximum penalty for their failure/refusal to consult with the unions is a fine of £5,000.  It's pocket change.

 

If unions call their members out in support of the sacked workers, they can face the kind of penalties which could bankrupt them.

 

43 years of successive governments attacking workers' rights has brought us here.

Breaks my heart! The years of arguments I've had with people about joining a union, 'why would I do that?, what do I need a union for?'!

 

They realise the fucking need when they've had a few weeks off sick and they're getting written warnings for it! Or when their wages don't go up for a few years running because their employer doesn't recognise collective bargaining!

[lifetime fan]

17 hours ago, Kevin D said:

A lot of balls.
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933

 

P&O Ferries boss Peter Hebblethwaite has admitted to MPs that a decision to sack 800 workers last week without notice broke the law.

 

He said there was "absolutely no doubt" that under UK employment law the firm was required to consult unions before making the mass cuts

 

Asked whether P&O broke the law by not consulting the unions, Mr Hebblethwaite said: "It was our assessment that the change [to staffing] was of such a magnitude that no union could possibly accept our proposal.

 

"So as I say, I completely throw our hands up, my hands up, that we did choose not to consult."

 

He added: "We did not believe there was any other way to do this and we are compensating people in full."

 

My old MP. 
 

 

 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/25/p-and-o-british-sea-shipping-seafarers

 

Great article on the capitalist greed that is stripping Britain of what were once prized assets. If these cunts could re-animate dead children to work on the ships, they would, as you could fit more into a room and would need to feed them less.  

[Colonel Bumcunt]

19 hours ago, lifetime fan said:

 

My old MP. 
 

 

 

Exactly.  "No union could have accepted the proposals".  

Why?

Well, because they want them to work twice as hard for half the money.  There was no fucking point in even asking a union what it thought.  Fuck em we'll get some Phillipino's in. 

 

Not one bit of P&O sits within UK jurisdiction.  It used to be registered in Dover, but post Brexit they now register in the Bahamas. 

 

The Tory inquiry was pointless, and they know it, just a chance to be seen to give a shit about something they don't give a shit about. 

[Anubis]

P&O ship detained in NI over safety and crew training concerns.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60881550
 

[Anubis]

1 hour ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

If these cunts could re-animate dead children to work on the ships, they would, as you could fit more into a room and would need to feed them less.  

I wouldn’t give up on that idea just yet…

[VladimirIlyich]

1 hour ago, Anubis said:

P&O ship detained in NI over safety and crew training concerns.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60881550
 

This is a great idea. Any place a P and O ship docks where they've breached these working conditions,seize the ship. That would show them. And I wouldnt expect anything more than a token gesture in the UK,but elsewhere could do it.

[dockers_strike]

HMS Queen Elizabeth arrives in Liverpool.

 

 

[Red Shift]

Great doco on the continuing expeditions down to the disappearing remains of the Titanic. I have much respect for Cameron. He only made the 90s movie to finance his own expedition, which was his real passion.

 

 

 

[Red Shift]

On 23/03/2016 at 11:18, AngryOfTuebrook said:

One of the ships my dad sailed on, Reina del Mar

 

 

 

(He also claimed that he sailed out of Sidi Barahni on the Old Wakkatonga.  Strange cat, my dad.)

My Dad did some time on the Reina del Mar as well. PSNC

[Anubis]

AoT and Red Shift about to find out they are half-brothers…

[VladimirIlyich]

1 hour ago, Anubis said:

AoT and Red Shift about to find out they are half-brothers…

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

This was quite a smart editorial decision by Channel 4.  Obviously, an impartial news organisation isn't allowed to say "worra shower of cunts" - but, the Gogglebox people are free to react as usual.

 

[halewood pete]

On 19/03/2022 at 15:35, AngryOfTuebrook said:

HMS Queen Elizabeth will be in Liverpool later this month (from the 24th).

 

It's not open to the public, but you should get good views from the ferry.

 

[Gnasher]

I used to be able to get round this paywall to read O'Conners articles but this time I'm blocked, if anyone on here has a subscription or can get behind and print this article it'd be much appreciated thanks,

 

 

 

[dockers_strike]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

I used to be able to get round this paywall to read O'Conners articles but this time I'm blocked, if anyone on here has a subscription or can get behind and print this article it'd be much appreciated thanks,

 

 

 

Had to copy the article to Word then copy to here. For some reason, wouldnt let me copy direct!

 

A few years ago, P&O ferries with names like Spirit of Britain and Pride of Kent were under the UK flag with mostly UK-based crew on an average salary of £36,000 a year. Now they are under the flags of Bermuda, Bahamas and Cyprus and are set to be crewed by agency staff paid an average of £5.50 an hour, well below the UK minimum wage.

 

When presented with these facts in parliament last week, transport minister Grant Shapps seemed at first to somewhat miss the point. “I will be calling on P&O to change the name of the ships,” he assured MPs. For the government’s critics, the real point was that P&O’s decision to sack almost 800 staff had given the lie to the narrative that Britain was “taking back control” after Brexit to create a “high wage economy” where workers were not undercut by low-paid migrants.

 

In truth, what happened with P&O doesn’t tell us much about the pros and cons of leaving the EU. But it does demonstrate that Brexit was no substitute for what is really required to improve the lot of Britain’s workers: the closure of legal loopholes and the adequate enforcement of employment laws already on the books.

 

P&O can employ agency staff on the Dover to Calais route at £5.50 an hour because a law in 2020 that extended the minimum wage to many seafarers in UK waters excluded workers on ferry routes like these. It might make sense for sailors who are simply passing through UK waters on a long voyage to be exempt, but there is no good reason why people to-ing and fro-ing between two rich countries like the UK and France should be expected to subsist on less than either one’s minimum wage.

 

The working conditions of many seafarers are largely invisible. There are global minimum standards in place but the floor is low: the worldwide minimum monthly wage for “able seafarers” is less than $700 while the maximum working hours are 14 hours in any 24-hour period and 72 hours in any seven-day period. You can be on board for up to 11 months without taking leave.

 

The International Transport Workers’ Federation often deals with problems like unpaid wages and seafarers being abandoned on ships with no way home. “There have been times we’ve had to get helicopters to bring them food and water,” says Ruwan Subasinghe, the ITF’s legal director. Shapps has now said he intends to close the minimum wage loophole for ferry workers.

 

But P&O also demonstrated the weakness of employment rights on land. The company has admitted it was required to consult unions but chose not to do so. Instead, it offered settlements to workers in excess of the amount they would be awarded by an employment tribunal.

 

While the government expressed shock that a company would in effect buy its way out of the law, lawyers call this an “efficient breach” and it’s not as uncommon as ministers might like to think. “Employment rights are all for sale, there’s a price tag on every single one of them,” one lawyer told me.

 

If ministers want to dissuade companies from making these sorts of calculations, they could uncap the amount of money workers could receive in tribunals, at least for the most serious examples. Though not at issue in the P&O case, underpayment of minimum wage is another example where stronger penalties would help.

 

A study of employment tribunal records by the Resolution Foundation think-tank in 2020 found that since 2017, only one of the 141 firms found to have underpaid the minimum wage was subject to a financial penalty in addition to repaying the arrears owed. HM Revenue & Customs does typically levy fines on employers who underpay workers, but in 2017-18 the average violation only incurred a penalty worth 90 per cent of the arrears owed.

 

This is not a strong disincentive given the low chances of getting caught in the first place. There have been fewer than 20 criminal prosecutions for underpaying the minimum wage since 2007. A “softly softly” approach to the enforcement of employment rights might seem to be pro-business.

 

In fact it is often the opposite. This hit home for me a few years ago when I stood with the owner of a clothes factory in Leicester who was following all the laws, trying desperately to compete with sweatshops paying £4 an hour with seeming impunity.

 

Most employers want to do the right thing by their staff. They struggle if they are undercut by the minority who don’t. The government is now scrambling to make sure ferry services don’t end up in a race to the bottom. Workers need a level playing field without loopholes and grey areas. Businesses do too.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f3adea93-69bf-4784-8b58-b7d9c9f9b78f

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, dockers_strike said:

Had to copy the article to Word then copy to here. For some reason, wouldnt let me copy direct!

 

A few years ago, P&O ferries with names like Spirit of Britain and Pride of Kent were under the UK flag with mostly UK-based crew on an average salary of £36,000 a year. Now they are under the flags of Bermuda, Bahamas and Cyprus and are set to be crewed by agency staff paid an average of £5.50 an hour, well below the UK minimum wage.

 

When presented with these facts in parliament last week, transport minister Grant Shapps seemed at first to somewhat miss the point. “I will be calling on P&O to change the name of the ships,” he assured MPs. For the government’s critics, the real point was that P&O’s decision to sack almost 800 staff had given the lie to the narrative that Britain was “taking back control” after Brexit to create a “high wage economy” where workers were not undercut by low-paid migrants.

 

In truth, what happened with P&O doesn’t tell us much about the pros and cons of leaving the EU. But it does demonstrate that Brexit was no substitute for what is really required to improve the lot of Britain’s workers: the closure of legal loopholes and the adequate enforcement of employment laws already on the books.

 

P&O can employ agency staff on the Dover to Calais route at £5.50 an hour because a law in 2020 that extended the minimum wage to many seafarers in UK waters excluded workers on ferry routes like these. It might make sense for sailors who are simply passing through UK waters on a long voyage to be exempt, but there is no good reason why people to-ing and fro-ing between two rich countries like the UK and France should be expected to subsist on less than either one’s minimum wage.

 

The working conditions of many seafarers are largely invisible. There are global minimum standards in place but the floor is low: the worldwide minimum monthly wage for “able seafarers” is less than $700 while the maximum working hours are 14 hours in any 24-hour period and 72 hours in any seven-day period. You can be on board for up to 11 months without taking leave.

 

The International Transport Workers’ Federation often deals with problems like unpaid wages and seafarers being abandoned on ships with no way home. “There have been times we’ve had to get helicopters to bring them food and water,” says Ruwan Subasinghe, the ITF’s legal director. Shapps has now said he intends to close the minimum wage loophole for ferry workers.

 

But P&O also demonstrated the weakness of employment rights on land. The company has admitted it was required to consult unions but chose not to do so. Instead, it offered settlements to workers in excess of the amount they would be awarded by an employment tribunal.

 

While the government expressed shock that a company would in effect buy its way out of the law, lawyers call this an “efficient breach” and it’s not as uncommon as ministers might like to think. “Employment rights are all for sale, there’s a price tag on every single one of them,” one lawyer told me.

 

If ministers want to dissuade companies from making these sorts of calculations, they could uncap the amount of money workers could receive in tribunals, at least for the most serious examples. Though not at issue in the P&O case, underpayment of minimum wage is another example where stronger penalties would help.

 

A study of employment tribunal records by the Resolution Foundation think-tank in 2020 found that since 2017, only one of the 141 firms found to have underpaid the minimum wage was subject to a financial penalty in addition to repaying the arrears owed. HM Revenue & Customs does typically levy fines on employers who underpay workers, but in 2017-18 the average violation only incurred a penalty worth 90 per cent of the arrears owed.

 

This is not a strong disincentive given the low chances of getting caught in the first place. There have been fewer than 20 criminal prosecutions for underpaying the minimum wage since 2007. A “softly softly” approach to the enforcement of employment rights might seem to be pro-business.

 

In fact it is often the opposite. This hit home for me a few years ago when I stood with the owner of a clothes factory in Leicester who was following all the laws, trying desperately to compete with sweatshops paying £4 an hour with seeming impunity.

 

Most employers want to do the right thing by their staff. They struggle if they are undercut by the minority who don’t. The government is now scrambling to make sure ferry services don’t end up in a race to the bottom. Workers need a level playing field without loopholes and grey areas. Businesses do too.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f3adea93-69bf-4784-8b58-b7d9c9f9b78f

Thanks Dockers.

[Harry's Lad]

[VladimirIlyich]

On 27/03/2022 at 10:02, AngryOfTuebrook said:

This was quite a smart editorial decision by Channel 4.  Obviously, an impartial news organisation isn't allowed to say "worra shower of cunts" - but, the Gogglebox people are free to react as usual.

 

Don't expect them to stop voting Tory though.