Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[magicrat]

This really is true.

 

There are a lot of people out there, as dumb as this may sound, who prefer equality to an improvement in their own economic situation.  What I mean is, some people will choose a society where everyone makes 10k/year over one where they make 35k/year but someone else makes 100k/year.

 

I live in Russia and it's amazing to me to talk to the older generation about socialism.  They remember not being able to say anything against the government, or when their parents told them about Stalin's repression and people just randomly disappearing from society and never being seen again, how they had almost nothing but potatoes and cabbage to live on.  All of that, and yet they'll say "yeah, but at least there weren't people driving around in Mercedes SUVs while people around them have a hard time buying schoolbooks for their kids."

 

It makes no sense to me at all.  Personally, I'd be happy for the rich to be even richer than they are now if it meant the poor were also better off.  Sure, it's irritating to see someone on twitter complaining about not having much money left over after spending all their 500k/year salary, but for me it's all about what's happening to the poor.  If you gave me a thought experiment where prices were frozen and I had the option to leave salaries as they are or give the rich an extra 40% more money while giving the poor 20% more money I'd give the poor the money every time.

 

I think there is some truth in this, Some people wanting to punish the better off out of jealousy,anger and frustration,

Whether there are sufficient numbers of these individuals to maintain a meaningful support for Brexit when it all goes tits up I would doubt. After all it's in the main Labour voters supporting an extreme Tory government and the people in power will still be driving Mercedes when they are queuing for potatoes . We are not living in Stalin's Russia and younger generations are an ever growing demographic and heavily opposed to Brexit, No I think there are far more people that were fooled by the propaganda and voted Leave in the erroneous belief it would leave them better or at least no worse off than those that decided to kick the house down in a fit of pique  

   

My belief it's more probable that eventually this will backfire on the Tories. They are inherently incompetent and will make miscalculation after miscalculation starting with the threat in May's letter yesterday

[AngryOfTuebrook]

fuck the eu

 

 

https://youtu.be/qEG-Gj_IyfA

The Fourth Railway Package is a proposal for the EU to follow the UK's fuck-ups. The disasters of privatised railways are a UK innovation for which Tories, Labour and Lib Dems should be held accountable. Don't imagine that the EU is responsible for this mess.

 

Contrary to the popular "Lexit" porky, nationalised rail was never outlawed by the EU - hence the fact that the Dutch and German national railways own so much of our system.

[Cardie]

fuck the eu

 

 

https://youtu.be/qEG-Gj_IyfA

Why exactly?

 

Never mind, ccovered already. As it was when people posted the various EU regs pointing out it was bollocks around the time of the referendum.

[cloggypop]

fuck the eu

 

 

https://youtu.be/qEG-Gj_IyfA

I'm in the EU right now. The trains are nationalised here. In fact the Dutch nationalised railway bought up some of the UK's network when they were stupid enough to sell them off, including Merseyrail.

 

It's just one example of the UK being the most neoliberal member of the EU.

[Cardie]

Well there you go, not so much of a turkey then.

Given an option of staying the same or getting worse what would you prefer?

[dennis tooth]

It undeniably helps to promote prosperity, peace and individual freedom.

 

Go read some history.

I did and I got as far as Greece's current predicament and NATO in afganistan. And the freedom of an individual from africa or even a country in the eu to decide its own healthcare system and decided you know less than you claim

[stringvest]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31135809

 

The former head of nurses Dr peter carter says the solution is simple, instead of paying through the nose on agency nurses we could train our own.

 

However that brings problems for a right wing government, nurses are powerful, they strike and governments fall so why empower people?

 

 

the government has systematically decimated the ability of the NHS to train its own nurses for decades. 

[dennis tooth]

What you say is largely true and I have never made a case for the EU being some sort of Nirvana. It is deeply flawed for the reasons you state and many more to boot, To me the decision to remain was entirely the pragmatic choice although the ideals of free movement and open borders were and still are worth fighting for, Where I do take issue with you is that people have nothing to lose, The vast majority do and voting to allow the Tories free reign to re-shape our economy will hurt the vast majority in so many different ways . It won't just be the jobs that go and whole industries downsizing ,it's the collapse of public services . Our Universities will be starved of cash, Arts funding will evaporate. The list of casualties is horrendous, Perhaps most damning is the opportunities that will be denied our children, those of which eligible to vote did so overwhelmingly in favour of Remain and their futures have been stolen largely by the older generation many of whom are homeowners and have decent pensions As for Leavers being characterised as retards then I can;t deny that along will many others I am guilty but when all the events that will follow from this madness were forecasted by people that were far better equipped to influence opinion than opportunistic politicians then I don't feel like apologising .

 

As for the shite Greece is enduring mainly as a result of Germany rigging the system to get the poorer countries signed up to the single currency should be reason to throw in the towel I disagree , If the Eurozone collapses we will be in the shit irrespective of whether we are in or out of the EU . Better to be in and finding solutions . Also the splintering of the EU that Brexit risks plays right into the hands of Putin. A;ready Russian military activity in the Ukraine is on the increase.

 

You know all this I'm sure , I would love a better, fairer society across the EU but that's not going to happen by throwing the EU out of the

window without anything remotely better on offer, It's a disaster to leave not because its great but because the alternative is worth no more than a big slogan plastered across the side of a fuck off bus

"free movement and open borders"

 

Not if you are Asian, African or a Philippine.

The EU is the most racist so racist it makes you forget. Runhomejack.

[dennis tooth]

This really is true.

 

There are a lot of people out there, as dumb as this may sound, who prefer equality to an improvement in their own economic situation. What I mean is, some people will choose a society where everyone makes 10k/year over one where they make 35k/year but someone else makes 100k/year.

 

I live in Russia and it's amazing to me to talk to the older generation about socialism. They remember not being able to say anything against the government, or when their parents told them about Stalin's repression and people just randomly disappearing from society and never being seen again, how they had almost nothing but potatoes and cabbage to live on. All of that, and yet they'll say "yeah, but at least there weren't people driving around in Mercedes SUVs while people around them have a hard time buying schoolbooks for their kids."

 

It makes no sense to me at all. Personally, I'd be happy for the rich to be even richer than they are now if it meant the poor were also better off. Sure, it's irritating to see someone on twitter complaining about not having much money left over after spending all their 500k/year salary, but for me it's all about what's happening to the poor. If you gave me a thought experiment where prices were frozen and I had the option to leave salaries as they are or give the rich an extra 40% more money while giving the poor 20% more money I'd give the poor the money every time.

Yeah but real wages have stagnated since the 70s and reduced since the credit crunch so the poor aren't better off at all.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I did and I got as far as Greece's current predicament and NATO in afganistan. And the freedom of an individual from africa or even a country in the eu to decide its own healthcare system and decided you know less than you claim

Greece is currently being fucked over by the current wave of EU neoliberalism. This is not a permanent or fundamental feature of the EU.

NATO is not the EU.

Africa is not in Europe.

EU Member States are free to determine their own healthcare systems.

 

European states have endured centuries of war and oppression, founded on competition. A few decades ago, some of them decided that cooperation was better and - as a direct result - Member States and their citizens have enjoyed an unprecedented, sustained period of peace, prosperity and freedom. If you want to argue against that, take any Member State and however long it's been a Member - 20 years, 40 years, 60 years, whatever - and compare life for its citizens now to what it was the same period before they joined, or any similar period in its history.

 

Keep reading.

[dennis tooth]

Perhaps you should read on:

http://www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/opinion/the-rising-wave-of-privatisation-damages-healthcare-in-europe/

Africa is not in the eu but you claimed we had freedom of movement which is obvs something you misled yourself about its like Hitler claiming Germany is free but omitting the jews.

They aren't cooperating with russia are they?

And replace Greece with Spain or Portugal or Italy if you need to.

I doubt they were better off now than any periods you described are you saying that for example youth unemployment in Spain was worse 20 years ago than now?

It was decided by America not some European nations.

Eu nations are actually not free to determine their own healthcare systems.

And yes neoliberalism is the future of the eu that's why the wanted ttip bringing in.

[dennis tooth]

The austerity policies pursued in several European countries in the wake of the EU fiscal crisis are pushing the public health sector to the brink – and forcing more and more services into private hands, writes Jan Willem Goudriaan on World Health Day (7 April).

 

Jan Willem Goudriaan is General Secretary of the European Public Service Union (EPSU).

 

Political leaders must halt the rising tide of commercialisation of healthcare services that is destroying quality of care and putting increased pressure on working conditions and the sustainability of services across Europe.

 

That is the message a network of trade unionists, citizen collectives, NGOs and social movements take to the streets in a series of actions planned in several European cities this World Health Day (Thursday 7 April).

 

Activists in Madrid, Barcelona, Zaragoza, Paris, Lille, Brussels, Milan and beyond raise their voices in a rallying cry, their message a simple one: invest in quality healthcare for all and end the treatment of health as a commodity.

 

In a time of rapidly ageing populations and rising co-morbidities, chronic diseases and dementia, public health and social care services need a vital injection of investment in order to meet complex needs.

 

Instead, they have become one of the primary targets for governments determined to slash budgets at any cost.

 

The introduction of fees and withdrawal of free care for some of the most vulnerable people in Europe mean that millions of people of all ages now live without access to quality care.

 

Tens of thousands of health professionals have lost their jobs; many more have had their wages cut and frozen. Increasing numbers of healthcare workers are leaving their home countries in search of better pay and working conditions abroad.

 

The resulting pressures on the staff that remain is reaching boiling point, of which this week’s 48-hour strike by junior doctors in the UK is just a snapshot. Recent months and years have seen industrial action and protest from health workers in Croatia, Kosovo, Latvia, Poland, Romania and Slovakia.

 

Health and public service workers are on strike in Greece today, where repeated cuts have left services starved of funding and staff overloaded. Workers in public services, health and other care are also on strike in Lombardia: like Greek workers they demand investment in quality health and social care.

 

The austerity policies pursued in several European countries in the wake of the EU fiscal crisis are pushing the public health sector to the brink – and forcing more and more services into private hands.

 

Deep cuts to government spending have been coupled with a widespread commercialisation and marketisation of health and social care. Large chunks of these services are being opened out to the market, allowing private enterprises and multinational corporations to bid for contracts from which huge profits can be made.

 

These governments do so at the risk of reduced quality of care, deteriorating working conditions and a two-tier health system in which lower risk and paying patients are “cherry picked” by commercial providers and receive better and faster care.

 

As such, what is just another opportunity for private health groups to make a quick profit becomes a deadly game of roulette for those who avoid too-costly check-ups and treatments or are made to wait at the back of a lengthy queue.

 

Evidence shows that economic crisis in Greece, Ireland, Latvia, Portugal and Spain, where mass cuts and hospital privatisations have taken place, has resulted in an upsurge in infectious diseases, including HIV, and suicides.

 

New costs for patients and increasing waiting lists are not simply financial and bureaucratic matters: they are costing us our health and lives.

 

The policies being implemented by national leaders in the UK and Spain are perhaps the most obvious examples of a government in aggressive pursuit of market liberalisation of the health sector.

 

But the desire of commercial providers to find new business avenues into the health and social service sector is facilitated by the European Commission’s own policy frameworks, too.

 

Increasing support is being shown for transnational markets and public-private partnerships (PPPs) in health and social care – through policy, EU legislation and financial assistance – which are presented by the Commission as a viable way to reduce government spending. This, despite the fact that the majority of PPPs rely on a stream of ever-increasing income from governments – a factor which the Commission itself recognises.

 

The UK’s Private Finance Initiative (PFI) scheme, whose model is being rolled out across Europe with gleeful encouragement by the European Commission, has in its nearly 25-year history shown no evidence of being a cheaper, more efficient or innovative method of providing public services.

 

Rather, PFI has been associated in the NHS with service cutbacks, hospital closures and spiraling debts for hospitals. Nowhere is this more evident than in south London, which was placed in administration in 2012 after losing £1.3 million per week and where PFI deals have cost the NHS Trust £69 million per year – £61 million on interest alone.

 

Of particular concern is the recent trade negotiations on agreements such as TTIP, TISA and CETA which could further open up healthcare for competition and hand a bigger role to private commercial providers, financial investors and insurance companies.

 

The inclusion of any form of private arbitration for multinationals – whether in the form of Investor-State Dispute Settlement or a mechanism by another name – threatens to render permanent the current liberalisations that future governments may seek to reverse, as well as endanger regulations and state intervention in the sector.

 

In Brussels, a series of actions on World Water Day shines a spotlight on the damaging consequences to citizens and workers of the increasing commercialisation of healthcare services by governments across the continent.

 

Following a morning press conference and seminar, a mediatised action next to Schuman roundabout invites participants for treatment at one of two temporary hospitals – one for those who can afford to pay and the other for those without such a luxury – to demonstrate the inequality of care that commercialisation policies create.

 

The pursuit of profit margins must never trump the duty of care to patients; our health and well-being is not a commodity to be sold to the lowest bidder. On World Health Day 2016 we call on governments to reverse this dangerous trend and give healthcare the support and investment it desperately needs.

[cloggypop]

And yes neoliberalism is the future of the eu that's why the wanted ttip bringing in.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal

 

It was the UK driving that one

[dennis tooth]

https://corporateeurope.org/2012/05/european-union-uses-eurocrisis-alibi-push-privatisation-water-services

[dennis tooth]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal

 

It was the UK driving that one

No it was America driving that actually.

 

"The European Commission (EC) in correspondence in 2012 explained it this way:

… privatisation of public companies contributes to the reduction of public debt, as well as to the reduction of subsidies, other transfers or state guarantees to state-owned enterprises. It also has the potential of increasing the efficiency of companies and, by extension, the competitiveness of the economy as a whole, while attracting foreign direct investment."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/making-a-killing-from-austerity-the-eus-great-privatisation-fire-sale/5510163

[dennis tooth]

EU AUSTERITY COULD PUSH 25 MILLION MORE INTO POVERTY

 

Up to 25 million more people in Europe are at risk of poverty by 2025 if governments continue with EU austerity policies, international aid agency Oxfam has said.

 

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-could-push-25-million-more-into-poverty/

[dennis tooth]

The second, more compelling factor is that the EU has long ceased to be a source of progressive legislation. Over the past two decades, the institutions of the EU have devoted themselves instead to the business mantra of 'competitiveness', code word for an all-out assault on the European social model. During Peter Mandelson's time as EU commissioner, any talk of 'Social Europe' was replaced by 'Global Europe', an explicit reengineering of the internal market for the benefit of transnational capital and a hard-nosed imperialism on behalf of European business abroad.

 

No one on the Left claims the EU is currently fit for purpose. If there was any doubt, the contempt shown to the people of Greece in 2015 when they called for a fair renegotiation of their debt confirmed there is zero tolerance in Brussels for any challenge to the fiscal compact that underpins neoliberal capitalist rule. 'Austerity Europe' is the brutal regime imposed by the institutions of the EU on its peoples, just as 'Fortress Europe' is the face presented to those fleeing disaster on its borders. There is no alternative.

 

Nor is this dogma simply a reflection of politics in the EU member states, as some have argued. The institutions of the EU are deeply committed to the twin agenda of competitiveness and austerity – and none more so than the European Commission, whose unique powers render it far more influential than any normal civil service. It was the Commission that joined forces with industry lobbyists to promote the infamous Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) currently under negotiation between the EU and USA. It's the Commission that is pressing ahead with a business-friendly agenda of deregulation that has already seen the downgrading of key environmental directives on fuel quality, air quality and the recycling of waste.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/01/08/comment-it-s-time-the-left-saw-the-eu-for-what-it-really-is

[cloggypop]

https://corporateeurope.org/2012/05/european-union-uses-eurocrisis-alibi-push-privatisation-water-services

The Dutch passed a law in 2004 specifically banning water privatisation.

 

You can even vote for the water boards here.

[dennis tooth]

Yeah back then it hadn't been fully compromised. Since 2006 it's been run a bit differently.

[dennis tooth]

Public ownership of gas and electricity is destined to become a cherished aim of the Labour Party. For years under privatisation, the swindling of the consumer has gone hand-in-hand with outrageous profit-taking by the corporate giants, to the loss of the public purse. Far from helping customers through keen competition, the main effect of energy privatisation has been – like austerity – a redistribution of wealth from the have-nots to the well-to-do.

 

What a pity, therefore, that Labour cannot renationalise it! Britain is a member of the European Union (EU) and as such bound by the EU Treaties. Indeed, every British court is duty-bound to enforce every EU law in preference to any conflicting British statute. Under Article 106, the EU prohibits public monopolies exercising exclusive rights where this violates EU competition rules. The EU’s Court of Justice has interpreted Article 106 as giving private companies the right to argue before the national courts that services should continue to be open to private-sector competition. Nationalised services are prima facie suspect and must be analysed by the judiciary for their “necessity”. Thus the EU has given companies a legal right to run to court to scupper programmes of public ownership.

 

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-membership-means-no-renationalisation/

[dennis tooth]

Privatization of water in Europe controversial

German local authorities and citizen initiatives are protesting against an EU directive that would lead to the privatization of public water supply systems. It could lead to forced privatization, critics fear.

http://m.dw.com/en/privatization-of-water-in-europe-controversial/a-16605658

[cloggypop]

"Renationalisation is impossible under EU rules"

 

 

This claim has been made about several different public services in the UK, but it is not true. In fact, the treaty that forms the EU’s most fundamental law (TFEU article 345) explicitly protects the right for EU countries to nationalise industries, and states that no EU rules can ever constrain each country’s choice of public or private ownership. Evidence

 

Even leaving this specific provision to one side, EU law in any case would not prohibit a Labour government from nationalising (or renationalising) a public service previously privatised by the Conservatives. The rules only say that, if a country decides to privatise a service and put it out to tender, then it must consider tenders from across the single market.

 

And even then, EU law explicitly allows a nationalised industry such as the health service to operate without competition if this is in the national interest.

 

It’s particularly crazy to hear this myth quoted with reference to the railways. Numerous EU countries have publicly-owned railways! Have eurosceptics never been on a train in France, Germany or Italy? (To prove the point, even within the UK, Northern Ireland’s railways are publicly owned.) Evidence

 

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/renationalisation-impossible/

[Plev]

Do you not realise they don't want evidence or expert opinion you leftie snowflake! Hard and painful Brexit and fuck the consequences!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Perhaps you should read on:

http://www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/opinion/the-rising-wave-of-privatisation-damages-healthcare-in-europe/

Africa is not in the eu but you claimed we had freedom of movement which is obvs something you misled yourself about its like Hitler claiming Germany is free but omitting the jews.

They aren't cooperating with russia are they?

And replace Greece with Spain or Portugal or Italy if you need to.

I doubt they were better off now than any periods you described are you saying that for example youth unemployment in Spain was worse 20 years ago than now?

It was decided by America not some European nations.

Eu nations are actually not free to determine their own healthcare systems.

And yes neoliberalism is the future of the eu that's why the wanted ttip bringing in.

Read it. There's nothing there to suggest that the EU limits the ability of Member States to set their own health policy.

I've never claimed anything about freedom of movement other than the obvious fact that citizens of Member States have a right of free movement throughout the EU. Your attempt at a Hitler analogy dies on first contact with facts.

Youth unemployment in Spain is higher now than 20 years ago. But 20 years ago Spain was an EU member. I challenged you to compare Member States to the time before membership. Spain has been a member for 31 years; 31 years before it joined, it was a Fascist dictatorship, economically isolated and on the bones of its arse.

Russia is not a Member State.

Neoliberalism - or any economic or political doctrine - is only "the future of the EU" to the extent that it is the future of the government's of the Member States. The EU used to be a bastion of liberal social democracy.

The EU was not "decided by America". Like your Hitler analogy, that nonsense claim doesn't stand the slightest whiff of scrutiny. (I think I debunked it in this thread a few weeks ago. Can't be arsed looking back.)

There's a hugely important point about the EU that you and the current crop of neoliberal politicians are missing - it was founded by people who had lived through two monstrous wars with the express purpose of reducing the risk of war by removing the conditions that lead to wars. In 60 years no two Member States have fired so much as a shot at each other.

[cloggypop]

Fascist dictatorships do have traditionally low levels of unemployment to be fair.