Spare room tax

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Yep. I did. Not rented, but bought an ex council house.

 

Not because the estate was perfect, but because it was the best I could afford at the time reasonably close to where I wanted to be.

 

Still here now, and will be trying to sell again after next month, but I still made that choice 'in my right mind'

 

Out of curiosity this Bob. Would it not have been better to wait till you were in a position to get something better?

 

In response to Rico's response to Secs.

 

Me and my other half could go out and get a mortgage for a house on a council estate tomorrow, but we don't want to live on council estate. Why should we? So what if we can save £15k on repayments? Would that make us happy?

 

No. Because it is not what we want.

 

We want to live in a house that is in a nicer area, and not just take second best to what we want for the sake of saving money each month. I haven't worked hard learning about life all these years and being pushed by my parents to get better than what they were able to provide me.

 

A nice house, a car that works and gets me from A to B and a good catchment area so my kids can get a better education than I did. My kids getting the things they need. Would I achieve all that by living on a council estate and saving £15k in mortgage payments? I am pretty certain I wouldn't.

 

Don't be thinking that people would automatically jump at the chance of living on a council estate to save money. In their right mind, as Section put it, they wouldn't.

[VladimirIlyich]

 

That's a bit harsh' date=' but I've been called worse. I'm a bit baffled as to how I'm jealous though. Maybe if people stopped making fraudulent claims, stopped having kids they can't afford, stopped avoiding taxes, stopped taking risks with other people's money they wouldn't have to. Just to be clear, I've done none of the above, I've paid tax since I started my Saturday job at WH Smiths in 1988 and paid it ever since. I now pay a fucking fortune in tax - but I'm the prick? Ok.[/quote']

 

I see this comment about,'kids people cant afford' a lot but if you are from a working class background its more than likely that your own upbringing has featured this a generation or two ago so maybe you wouldnt be here yourself but for it?

 

You make some sweeping generalisations about people's circumstances based solely on their possessions and this isnt a great indicator of how well off people are.

 

Remember the Thatcher administration encouraged everybody's right to buy their council houses, spend with their credit cards and then took away their jobs and left them in the shit. They may have kept their houses but are scraping to pay a mortgage and cant afford to renovate it. Thats just one small example of things not being as they seem and im sure there are others.

 

I will also say that the vast majority of benefit fraud involves amounts so small that a lot of 'upstanding citizens' have done the equivalent in some way are other in their own lifetime and most of the time these things are done merely to survive rather than greed, not all of course but a hell of a lot.

 

I also find it funny that people in privately owned property would move on to a council estate to save money while those on council estates would move into private homes like a shot.

Maybe there is some kind of transfer scheme we could introduce?

[Rico1304]

I see this comment about,'kids people cant afford' a lot but if you are from a working class background its more than likely that your own upbringing has featured this a generation or two ago so maybe you wouldnt be here yourself but for it?

 

You make some sweeping generalisations about people's circumstances based solely on their possessions and this isnt a great indicator of how well off people are.

 

Remember the Thatcher administration encouraged everybody's right to buy their council houses, spend with their credit cards and then took away their jobs and left them in the shit. They may have kept their houses but are scraping to pay a mortgage and cant afford to renovate it. Thats just one small example of things not being as they seem and im sure there are others.

 

I will also say that the vast majority of benefit fraud involves amounts so small that a lot of 'upstanding citizens' have done the equivalent in some way are other in their own lifetime and most of the time these things are done merely to survive rather than greed, not all of course but a hell of a lot.

 

I also find it funny that people in privately owned property would move on to a council estate to save money while those on council estates would move into private homes like a shot.

Maybe there is some kind of transfer scheme we could introduce?

 

How many times do I have to say this...I'm not talking about people moving into Council homes, I'm talking about choosing to stay in them. Which they do, undoubtably. The scenario I outlined with a family being awarded a council home based on need and then circumstances changing with kids growing up must happen tens of thousands of times a year. Is it fair that that family continues to pay a low rent with 4 people working whilst denying a family in need? From what I've seen here it's ok to lie and cheat if you are sticking it to the man. No if fucking isn't, it's that kind of attitude that infuriates me.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

How many times do I have to say this...I'm not talking about people moving into Council homes, I'm talking about choosing to stay in them. Which they do, undoubtably. The scenario I outlined with a family being awarded a council home based on need and then circumstances changing with kids growing up must happen tens of thousands of times a year. Is it fair that that family continues to pay a low rent with 4 people working whilst denying a family in need? From what I've seen here it's ok to lie and cheat if you are sticking it to the man. No if fucking isn't, it's that kind of attitude that infuriates me.

 

Are you saying kick those people out of the home that they have had for say 18 years, just because their kids have grown up and are earning a wage? That is what it seems like to me? Apologies if I am wrong.

 

How about government stop pandering to the rich fat cats and their needs and start meeting the needs of the people by producing a social housing model that benefits all.

 

I pay my taxes and have done since the day I left school and got my first job. I want my taxes to provide me and the people of this country the things we need, like the NHS, free prescriptions, free and better education, suitable social housing, , better public services and better opportunities to get on the housing market ladder.

 

Why should Joe Public take the hit for bankers and governments gambling with our money and losing it all? They might as well have taken all the money in the country and spent it in the bookies, because that is effectively what they have done.

 

A capitalist world is laden corruption and greed. And greed is seeping through to the people and it stinks. Especially for those who pay their way in life get screwed over. They promise you all the riches if you put into this pension or that savings so that when you retire you will have an x amount of cash in a lump sum so you wont have to worry about the days after you stop working.

 

All these services 'made' for you and me, are sold on how it benefits the provider or the middle man, not you. How the fuck can a company be making billions in profit in a recession? Yet the person on the street is worse off?

 

As great as all these new forms of technology are, are destroying society in this creation of a 'need', when there wasn't one in the first place.

 

Went off topic a little there, my apologies.

[Rico1304]

I'm not saying kick them out, I'm saying make them pay. That generates cash for the councils, allowing them to build new housing stock for the needy.

 

The 'fat cat' company I work for has 33k employees, all paying tax and contributing to society.

 

Once again, I don't think going after tax avoiders and benefit cheats are mutually exclusive, go after both the bastards.

[Rico1304]

I see this comment about,'kids people cant afford' a lot but if you are from a working class background its more than likely that your own upbringing has featured this a generation or two ago so maybe you wouldnt be here yourself but for it? 2 generations ago was before the welfare state -

You make some sweeping generalisations about people's circumstances based solely on their possessions and this isnt a great indicator of how well off people are. Well, without seeing their bank account it's the best indicator there is!!!!]

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I'm not saying kick them out, I'm saying make them pay. That generates cash for the councils, allowing them to build new housing stock for the needy.

 

The 'fat cat' company I work for has 33k employees, all paying tax and contributing to society.

 

Once again, I don't think going after tax avoiders and benefit cheats are mutually exclusive, go after both the bastards.

 

But a government won't go after the likes of Apple, Vodafone or Amazon because they threaten to leave the country and take their work with them. Governments panic and pander to them. Instead they go for the weakest.

 

How about a government grew some fucking balls and decided "Do you know what Mr Apple? Fuck you. We will make our own shipping company and employ our own people, we will build our own mobile company and provide our people with a service they need and deserve. We will build our own products so that any money we make actually goes back in to the country rather than some warm tax haven"

 

Corporations like Amazon, Apple and Vodafone paying their way like they should be, would more than cover the problems we currently have. We wouldn't have to wait 18 years for this current shit to be sorted out.

[Rico1304]

But a government won't go after the likes of Apple, Vodafone or Amazon because they threaten to leave the country and take their work with them. Governments panic and pander to them. Instead they go for the weakest.

 

How about a government grew some fucking balls and decided "Do you know what Mr Apple? Fuck you. We will make our own shipping company and employ our own people, we will build our own mobile company and provide our people with a service they need and deserve. We will build our own products so that any money we make actually goes back in to the country rather than some warm tax haven"

 

Corporations like Amazon, Apple and Vodafone paying their way like they should be, would more than cover the problems we currently have. We wouldn't have to wait 18 years for this current shit to be sorted out.

 

I'm sorry and no offence meant but that's pie in the sky, how would it be funded? where is the capital coming from? Could you see civil servants being paid millions for the top jobs? No chance.

[VladimirIlyich]

 

How many times do I have to say this...I'm not talking about people moving into Council homes' date=' I'm talking about choosing to stay in them. Which they do, undoubtably. The scenario I outlined with a family being awarded a council home based on need and then circumstances changing with kids growing up must happen tens of thousands of times a year. Is it fair that that family continues to pay a low rent with 4 people working whilst denying a family in need? From what I've seen here it's ok to lie and cheat if you are sticking it to the man. No if fucking isn't, it's that kind of attitude that infuriates me.[/quote']

 

So just because your kids grow up you get kicked out of your home? And go where exactly?

Lots of parents are as badly or worse off than their kids and simply cannot afford to go anywhere and wouldnt stay on a council estate if they didnt have to, I definitely wouldnt.

 

Lots of parents are also having to house their kids and their kids families too as there arent any council houses available, parents cannot pass on their houses to offspring if they move or pass away and those kids cant afford private housing either.

 

So who is responsible for these houses not getting built? Its certainly not the tenants is it?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I'm sorry and no offence meant but that's pie in the sky, how would it be funded? where is the capital coming from?

 

Spoken like a true capitalist. No offence.

 

Typical cop out answer is "that's pie in the sky". How do you know it is?

 

You would have more people employed, therefore creating a better economy as what money goes out in terms of wages goes back in terms of buying. You would use credit unions instead of banks so everybody's money was safe and not at risk at being gambled. You are re-creating those jobs for the working class that Section is talking about in his last post.

 

You may pay a little more in taxes but it would be our service that we pay for. Any profit would go back into the service/country so the people benefit from it rather than some 'fat cat' CEO or Director.

 

I don't think people would be against that because they would be getting what they believe they should be getting now for their taxes, a better service and a better way of life in a more fairer way.

 

If a fat cat company can make billions in profit, why can't a country do the same?

 

This country could become self sufficient by bringing back our old industries that were sold off cheaply by Maggie and her cronies in the 80's. All because we were led to believe the American Dream is the way to follow. When it is clearly not. It is as much a failure as Communism was.

 

Could you see civil servants being paid millions for the top jobs? No chance.

 

 

Why should anyone be paid millions for doing a job?

[Rico1304]

Spoken like a true capitalist. No offence.

 

Typical cop out answer is "that's pie in the sky". How do you know it is?

 

You would have more people employed, therefore creating a better economy as what money goes out in terms of wages goes back in terms of buying. You would use credit unions instead of banks so everybody's money was safe and not at risk at being gambled. You are re-creating those jobs for the working class that Section is talking about in his last post.

 

You may pay a little more in taxes but it would be our service that we pay for. Any profit would go back into the service/country so the people benefit from it rather than some 'fat cat' CEO or Director.

 

I don't think people would be against that because they would be getting what they believe they should be getting now for their taxes, a better service and a better way of life in a more fairer way.

 

If a fat cat company can make billions in profit, why can't a country do the same?

 

This country could become self sufficient by bringing back our old industries that were sold off cheaply by Maggie and her cronies in the 80's. All because we were led to believe the American Dream is the way to follow. When it is clearly not. It is as much a failure as Communism was.

 

 

 

 

Why should anyone be paid millions for doing a job?

 

OK, so just take your example of a mobile phone factory;

- Where to build it? Every council would want it and would petition government to get the advantage of the jobs - that'd have to be done fairly and would take some kind of review - 2 yrs to take account of the appeals?

 

- Build the factory? A year to go from nothing to a working factory?

 

- Develop the phone? 3-4 years from concept to first one on Sale?

 

- Who is the market? we are competing with Apple, Blackberry etc - so it'd have to be cheap - maybe even a loss leader to get into the market

 

So far we are 5 or so years in, no product and no guarantee it'd work. To get the best minds in the business (which we'd need to get a decent product) you'd need to pay them the millions because Apple and VF certainly are.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

OK, so just take your example of a mobile phone factory;

 

- Where to build it? Every council would want it and would petition government to get the advantage of the jobs - that'd have to be done fairly and would take some kind of review - 2 yrs to take account of the appeals?

 

If a mobile company was to do one with it's business then the buildings would already be there. If it is government led, then there would be no need for councils' to fight over it as other sectors could be given to different councils.

 

- Build the factory? A year to go from nothing to a working factory?

 

Who said a year? Do you not think a more sensible option would be to start preparing for life without the likes of Apple before you give them the ultimatum?

 

- Develop the phone? 3-4 years from concept to first one on Sale?

 

The phone is already developed, why would you need to build a new one? Every phone does the same thing anyway.

 

- Who is the market? we are competing with Apple, Blackberry etc - so it'd have to be cheap - maybe even a loss leader to get into the market

 

The market are the people who live in this country. If you offered them an equal or even better service compared to what they get now, they would go for it.

 

So far we are 5 or so years in, no product and no guarantee it'd work. To get the best minds in the business (which we'd need to get a decent product) you'd need to pay them the millions because Apple and VF certainly are.

 

5 years? Why that long?

 

How would it not work when the infrastructure is already there. Mobile phone companies don't build the masts and networks, governments do. they then sell it to the highest bidder.

 

The phone does not need to be developed. There are gazillions of phones out there already. And I am pretty certain that somewhere out there is already somebody with an idea for a next generation phone. It just needs to be discovered. And though Uni and Education, you would find it.

 

You don't need to pay them millions at all. What about all those studying engineering and technology development in Universities? What do we offer them when they finish Uni at the moment?

 

You could tailor the curriculum to suit the needs of the country, get people to specialise in specific areas that would mean they actually get a job related to what they worked hard for in Uni, rather than coming out and ending up ding something so far way from what the qualified to do.

 

You would have network engineers, customer service advisor's, specialists in technology development, people to develop those people. Would the head of that operation need to be paid millions? I don't think so. If a company that is already set up in the UK (but have their tax haven set aside) and are making millions, why couldn't a government run company do the same?

 

Oh and by the way, the fella who runs Vodafone did not invent the mobile phone. He just has experience of cutting costs and ringing every penny out of every customer that he can to keep other fat cats happy.

 

Develop our own and reap the benefits ourselves rather than some tax dodging company.

[Rico1304]

Mate - I think what you've written there is completely wrong. I think you are suggesting that we move to some communist style state where choice is removed and we rely on the government. that's so far removed from what I believe I don't think there is any point carrying on as we aren't going to convince each other.

 

Luckily for me I think you are in a minority, I don't fancy the country you've described.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Mate - I think what you've written there is completely wrong. I think you are suggesting that we move to some communist style state where choice is removed and we rely on the government. that's so far removed from what I believe I don't think there is any point carrying on as we aren't going to convince each other.

 

Luckily for me I think you are in a minority, I don't fancy the country you've described.

 

Communism? I am not 17 mate.

[Moo]

Mate - I think what you've written there is completely wrong. I think you are suggesting that we move to some communist style state where choice is removed and we rely on the government. that's so far removed from what I believe I don't think there is any point carrying on as we aren't going to convince each other.

 

Luckily for me I think you are in a minority, I don't fancy the country you've described.

 

Out of interest what don't you fancy about it?

[Rico1304]

I did say Communist style - how would you describe it then?

 

The rest of your argument does seem very basic...taking over the infrastructure without compensating companies, copying tech with no redress from the owner of the IP, moving millions of Amazon, Google , VF customers to a state owned company because it'll be 'better'. Good luck.

[Rico1304]

Out of interest what don't you fancy about it?

 

OK, I was going to walk away...its a fucking pipe dream. If the government told you that you couldn't use Amazon, Google, VF or any other big multinational because they were going to provide the services would you have the confidence they'd be able to do it? Would you let them do it? What if they didnt?

 

Would you work for this government company? Would you accept less money than you got before?

 

Once this amazing company is built wih the idea for the next phone which is just 'out there' waiting to be discovered there are only 60 million people in the UK. How much is this phone going to cost to support an entire mobile industry?

 

There, that's a 30 second think about why it couldn't work.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I did say Communist style - how would you describe it then?

 

The rest of your argument does seem very basic...taking over the infrastructure without compensating companies, copying tech with no redress from the owner of the IP, moving millions of Amazon, Google , VF customers to a state owned company because it'll be 'better'. Good luck.

 

If the service is better the customers will go for it. How do you think the likes of Amazon grew in the first place? They promoted a service that was better.

 

I think you need to read about Communism is mate, if you think that my suggestion at this country becoming self sufficient is Communism then you are wrong. It is more aligned to Socialism than Communism. I applied this theory to your example of a mobile company. I think you are picturing a 1984 type scenario, when that is so far away from what I am suggesting.

 

The same ideology could be applied to all services. The people of this country would benefit from it rather than a group of CEO's in a tax haven. Which is how it should be.

 

Technology is always being copied. Are you really that naive to think all "new" phones (or other products)are brand new? They are evolved not brand new.

 

Compensating the companies? Are you shitting me?

 

So you think it is OK for a corporation that is screwing this country out of billions, and when you give them an ultimatum of pay your way or follow through with your threats to leave you want us to go "Here you go Mr Amazon, have some money for us upsetting you" Really?

 

You want us to compensate a company that is holding us to ransom over money they rightly owe us?

 

I am sorry but that is a world I don't want to be a part of while the poor are just left to fight for scraps and those who driven by greed are allowed to circle like vultures.

 

At least my world would be a more equal world and everybody would get the chance they deserve.

[Rico1304]

If the service is better the customers will go for it. How do you think the likes of Amazon grew in the first place? They promoted a service that was better.

 

I think you need to read about Communism is mate, if you think that my suggestion at this country becoming self sufficient is Communism then you are wrong. It is more aligned to Socialism than Communism. I applied this theory to your example of a mobile company. I think you are picturing a 1984 type scenario, when that is so far away from what I am suggesting.

 

The same ideology could be applied to all services. The people of this country would benefit from it rather than a group of CEO's in a tax haven. Which is how it should be.

 

Technology is always being copied. Are you really that naive to think all "new" phones (or other products)are brand new? They are evolved not brand new.

 

Compensating the companies? Are you shitting me?

 

So you think it is OK for a corporation that is screwing this country out of billions, and when you give them an ultimatum of pay your way or follow through with your threats to leave you want us to go "Here you go Mr Amazon, have some money for us upsetting you" Really?

 

You want us to compensate a company that is holding us to ransom over money they rightly owe us?

 

I am sorry but that is a world I don't want to be a part of while the poor are just left to fight for scraps and those who driven by greed are allowed to circle like vultures.

 

At least my world would be a more equal world and everybody would get the chance they deserve.

 

I tell you what, if you've got this amazing idea for making a 'better' company than Amazon why not run with it? It sounds so easy so get back to me when you are a billionaire.

 

What do you do? I have a sneaking suspicion it's in eduction.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

OK, I was going to walk away...its a fucking pipe dream. If the government told you that you couldn't use Amazon, Google, VF or any other big multinational because they were going to provide the services would you have the confidence they'd be able to do it? Would you let them do it? What if they didnt?

 

Would you work for this government company? Would you accept less money than you got before?

 

Once this amazing company is built with the idea for the next phone which is just 'out there' waiting to be discovered there are only 60 million people in the UK. How much is this phone going to cost to support an entire mobile industry?

 

There, that's a 30 second think about why it couldn't work.

 

No offence mate, but lose the condescending "Pipe dream" tone.

 

What alternatives have you got in making it a better place then?

 

If I was playing my part in society and contributing to the welfare and improvement of this country, why wouldn't I work for a government company?

 

Are public sector workers not doing that already?

 

You are also under the assumption that I am only talking about working within the boundaries of this country. Why would we not be able to develop the technology over time and use it to help third world countries and use our expertise to develop their own infrastructure linking in together to make the world a better place?

 

Why would be getting paid less be a problem if the country was providing services that were of a better quality, gas and electric would be cheaper, the products would be fairly priced so everybody could have access to them. As long as you had everything you needed, and had the opportunity to earn extra as rewards for overtime e.g. a weeks worth of overtime for a new 40" 3D TV.

 

Surely that would make the less pay less of an issue as you are still being rewarded and not losing out.

 

A "new" handset costs around £500 - £600 to buy as a standalone. When people take out new contracts, the tariff they pay for is the subsidy towards the handset. You don't actually get the phone for free or for just £50. You pay near enough the amount of the phone for the majority of you contract.

 

Would you need 60 Million of the same phone? No because that would just be idiotic. You identify what people want. You provide a products that meet everybody's needs, not just what the likes of what Apple tells you that you need.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I tell you what, if you've got this amazing idea for making a 'better' company than Amazon why not run with it? It sounds so easy so get back to me when you are a billionaire.

 

What do you do? I have a sneaking suspicion it's in eduction.

 

I don't want to be a billionaire. I am not driven by greed.

 

No I am not in education, what gives you that idea?

[Rico1304]

I don't want to be a billionaire. I am not driven by greed.

 

No I am not in education, what gives you that idea?

 

I just had a feeling you were, maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else. But you've not said what you do...so, what do you do?

 

With all due respect if it's that easy do it, if the solution to the world's ills is at your feet then crack on.

[TheHitman]

They weren't allowed to build new council houses with the money. So far as I can see, that was the biggest problem with right to buy, that you were losing all this housing stock and not replacing it.

 

Housing benefit is a total shambles and little more than a tidy subsidy for wealthy landlords. No government will have the balls to heavily reform or eradicate it though.

 

This is the crux of the problem people often forget the reason why so many people are eligible for Housing Benefit is rents have increased way beyond wages. When the old "fair rents" were scrapped at the end of 80's it created the situation we have arrived at now. In other words if private rents had more stringent regulation and were controlled then they wouldn't need to be coming up with these daft ideas that are the equivalent of painting over moldy plaster.

 

I read somewhere that Housing benefit has risen from 14-21 billion over the past decade with the majority of that increase going to private landlords. So successive governments have created a situation where they are losing out on several billion per year that should be going into the public coffers. The government and the tabloids have created narratives where someone like Bob and Rico will blame those on the end of rather than looking further up at the real problems.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I just had a feeling you were, maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else. But you've not said what you do...so, what do you do?

 

With all due respect if it's that easy do it, if the solution to the world's ills is at your feet then crack on.

 

I am a trainer in a law firm.

 

What do you do?

 

Nobody said it was easy to do. Just needs a little more thought and somebody within power to actually make a stand against capitalism. Just capitalism likes to make a stand against anything that it disagrees with or wants to take off somebody else.

[VladimirIlyich]

I have put this article as a separate thread but it sums up a lot of what has gone wrong in this country and particularly with the screwed up thinking of the last few governments.

 

'If there was a revolution it would start in Liverpool' - Ken Loach on how he takes inspiration from Hillsborough campaigners - In The Mix Today - News - Liverpool Echo