A simple game overcomplicated for 20+ years?

[Unrighteous]

Good thread, this.

 

The tinkering, etc, is really annoying and thats one reason why I really feel good about Rodgers. We know we're going to have one single style of play for the entire time that he's at the club.

 

I think this is the single most important thing for a club, IMO, and you can tell by the examples of the 'one style' clubs like Barcelona, Arsenal, Dortmund, Shakhtar, the Manc cunts, etc.

[Ranxerox]

Very good OP and spot on the money. Barca can do what they do because they have quality and play that system from the academy on up.

 

As far as not working in europe the Mancs have won a couple of cups there as well, although I think this year they are to weak in the midfield to take on Barca, Real, or even a couple others.

[piscinin]

Very good OP and spot on the money. Barca can do what they do because they have quality and play that system from the academy on up.

 

As far as not working in europe the Mancs have won a couple of cups there as well, although I think this year they are to weak in the midfield to take on Barca, Real, or even a couple others.

 

Manure brought in Queiroz to instill a different way of playing specifically for Europe. So I'm not sure it's quite as 1-dimensional as some make out.

[TimeForHeroes]

Good thread, this.

 

The tinkering, etc, is really annoying and thats one reason why I really feel good about Rodgers. We know we're going to have one single style of play for the entire time that he's at the club.

 

I think this is the single most important thing for a club, IMO, and you can tell by the examples of the 'one style' clubs like Barcelona, Arsenal, Dortmund, Shakhtar, the Manc cunts, etc.

 

Dont understand why people get pissed off with squad rotation. Ferguson has done it for years so did Rafa and it keeps players fresh and on their toes. Not playing them week in, week out regardless of how out of form or knackered they are, which IMO is where Rodgers has gone wrong already with Allen, Gerrard and Sterling. Look at Suso, hasnt had a sniff for a month, even though players in his position have been crap.

[VladimirIlyich]

 

Dont understand why people get pissed off with squad rotation. Ferguson has done it for years so did Rafa and it keeps players fresh and on their toes. Not playing them week in' date=' week out regardless of how out of form or knackered they are, which IMO is where Rodgers has gone wrong already with Allen, Gerrard and Sterling. Look at Suso, hasnt had a sniff for a month, even though players in his position have been crap.[/quote']

 

Squad rotation is dependent on a capable squad of replacements.

The Mancs have always had 3 or 4 strikers so never leave themselves short of firepower.

Its great if you,ve got a decent squad but haven't even got a decent team!

[Trumo]

Bump.

 

This is the post whose points I wanted to address now that the season is over.

 

...

The mentality needs to be instilled to be ahead of the curve, as it were. For me, that means ALWAYS averaging a MINIMUM of both 2 points per game and 2 goals per game after every single game of the season. That means I expect the club to be getting at least 76 points and at least 76 goals per season in the league. And that is as a minimum. Those numbers pretty much ensure a top 4 place and a crack at competing in the Champions League.

 

Safe to say we've exceeded that and then some.

 

You'll notice I said 'ahead of the curve'. Well, for me that means at least 10 points and 10 goals more than the 'curve' I have outlined above. A total of 86 points and 86 goals is likely to result in a top-2 finish, and in some years has been enough to lift the title. Another thing that I consider to put a team ahead of the curve is getting a MINIMUM of 4 points out of 6 against EVERY other team in the league. That means nobody gets the better of you in the league, and that mentality is both positive for your team and a negative factor for your opponents. There will be plenty of occasions where your team will collect all 6 points. At the absolute worst, they'll collect 3.

When you motivate and build your squad to deliver these minimums on a consistent basis, it gives them something to strive for in every single game. Your team picking up more points means others will pick up less.

 

 

We fell short of that points target by 2 points but smashed the goals target by scoring 101 goals. More pertinently, we got maximum points against eight sides, 4 points from 6 against six sides, 3 points from 6 against four sides. Chelsea are the only side we failed to register points against, but we got at least one win against everybody else.

 

You might also notice I've not said anything about defending yet. That is not because I'm trying to promote a Keegan-esque "We'll score more than you" ideal - at least not in the same manner he envisioned it - but rather because teams that are too focussed on their defensive set-up inadvertently transmit that to their opponents. If you get your team to develop a habit of scoring regularly and picking up the points consistently, that will enable you to make the basic outcome of the team's performance less dependant on the players' actual form because they will still have a consistent ability to get goals and results from their own endeavours. They can do what is necessary even when they don't play well.

 

 

Yes, we shipped an awful lot of goals and there were loads of individual mistakes, but the habit of scoring regularly meant that we only failed to score in 3 out of 38 games, and each of those resulted in defeat. If we scored, more often than not we went on to get a positive result. There wasn't a single goalless draw.

 

With a squad capable of that base level, and capable of delivering that year-in your out, the manager can then work on adapting and evolving the squad. If he is worth his salt, he will be able to identify those players that have reached their peak, those that are winging it, and those that still want and have more to give. To help with that, I'd have individual targets for the squad. I'd want at least 4 players to get into double figures for goals in the league every season. At least 2 should aim to get over 20 goals, and we should have at least one player capable of over 30 goals a year in the league. Of course other players need to want to chip in with their fair share. To aid that idea, my aim would be to always have sufficient depth in every position on the field, so that never again are we short of attackers or players capable of putting the ball in the net. That is an area that has been of concern for pretty much all of the past 22 years, and it needs to be addressed.

 

 

Suarez, Sturridge and Gerrard all got into double figures in the league and Sterling just fell short with 9 goals. That's close enough to the 4 players getting into double figures that I wanted. Suarez and Sturridge both met the 20+ target and Suarez got into the 30+ so it's fair to say those targets were met. Skrtel, Coutinho and Henderson all chipped in with valuable goal contributions with 5 other players netting at least 1 goal in the league. That means we had 12 players finding the back of the net, plus 5 own goals in our favour.

 

If Brendan Rodgers can rectify the team's balance to be more solid and compact defensively yet still retain the team's ability to score at will at the other end, as well as adding significantly effective depth to the squad, then he could well have created a side capable of winning the league.

[billypilgrimnz]

Yes, we shipped an awful lot of goals and there were loads of individual mistakes, but the habit of scoring regularly meant that we only failed to score in 3 out of 38 games, and each of those resulted in defeat. If we scored, more often than not we went on to get a positive result. There wasn't a single goalless draw.

 

This part I don't get. A scoreless draw would have been fantastic against Chelsea. Sometimes, if we simply can't score, the least we can do is not let the other team score either.

[Pureblood]

I remember reading a few years back on here people taking the piss out of Redknapp at Spurs for being tactically naive, but in Bale and Lennon he had pace on the flanks, a well balanced midfield and a solid pool of goalscoring talent to call on in Crouch, Defoe, Pavyluchenko and Keane. Sometimes it is just that simple.

 

And they won fuck all.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

This part I don't get. A scoreless draw would have been fantastic against Chelsea. Sometimes, if we simply can't score, the least we can do is not let the other team score either.

 

True, a scoreless draw would have been fantastic against Chelsea. But had we played conservatively - changing the approach that underpinned a run of 11 consecutive victories - and lost narrowly people would be applying similar levels of hindsight.

 

Chelsea have played for conservative wins all season, with an excellent defensive record, and they're now ruing draws and narrow losses. It's all a gamble.

[Trumo]

This part I don't get. A scoreless draw would have been fantastic against Chelsea. Sometimes, if we simply can't score, the least we can do is not let the other team score either.

 

I think the timing of that Chelsea game was a factor. Prior to that, we'd won 11 on the bounce and when you've been on a roll like that, it's difficult to adapt your mindset to something more pragmatic. If we'd had that Chelsea game 4 or 5 games earlier, it might have been easier to exercise a little more caution. Added to that is the fact that Rodgers doesn't usually send his sides out to be pragmatic.

 

EDIT: what BBN just said.

[VladimirIlyich]

Section said in another post that with Brendan Rodgers we cannot expect defensive solidity much,if at all and attacking football is just the way he rolls and we will have to put up with that. I agree with this but think it may be balanced a little by having a better backroom staff containing a coach who understands the defensive side a lot better.

I'd imagine the likes of Steve Clarke would be ideal for a role like this.

[Lee909]

I dont think its a simple as getting Clarke, Hyypia etc in. Both coached/played with more defensive teams and were not exposed like our defenders are.

Clarke could come in and sure things up but it would be at the expense of some attacking play. No way would he be haply with Gerrard as the sitting midfielders, he would want a Lucas, Mascherano type to sit.

[VladimirIlyich]

I wasnt suggesting just getting a Clarke/Hyppia style person in and that would solve all our problems at the back. I think a more experienced assistant with status to speak to Rodgers and get his ear and speak with authority is needed.

We are now going to the next level with CL football and the Keystone Kops routine wont work there.

[polymerpunkah]

So is it a question of coaching, or personnel?

 

Is there a player out there who could shore up the mid-field defensively, but still contribute enough going forward?

[sir roger]

M'Vila seems an obvious shout as long as Brendan can keep him focussed.

 

I think Henderson could be a fantastic DM with a bit of seasoning.

[Pureblood]

So is it a question of coaching, or personnel?

 

Is there a player out there who could shore up the mid-field defensively, but still contribute enough going forward?

 

 

I think Rodgers will stick with Stevie but ask him to play a bit wiser at the correct time.  Surely the focus in pre-season training will be on killing games when we're ahead and being a bit smarter in possession (whilst retaining our overall aggressive attacking ethos).  

[polymerpunkah]

If Gerrard, then perhaps a more commanding CB to go with him?

 

Kompany, Terry, Vidic eg.

 

An organizer/ass kicker, etc.

 

Rodgers has repeatedly said "it's not formation/tactics, it's individual errors".

 

If so, then the solution is to reduce the errors.

[Pureblood]

I don't know what the solution there is.  I'd be surprised if FSG were willing to sanction buying more CBs unless a player left, maybe Agger?  We definitely need to sort out how to defend crosses and set pieces.  Mignolet will have to take more responsibility.  I don't know the stats but most of the stupid goals we concede seem to come from high balls or crosses rather than attacks through the middle so i don't see a weak midfield as the problem.