London looking like Mogadishu...

[Section_31]

The Poles thing was just thrown in there by that bloke in Salford who was quite clearly a mong (he started the interview by interrupting another person's interview and licking the TV camera lens).

 

Economic migration has got nothing to do with it IMO, although it is a symptom of the same underlying problem - i.e certain sections of people becoming gradually obsolete in the capitalist system.

[Whelan]

I would say naive then

 

Quite possibly to be fair. I think people with very little, or a poor education can be easily led to do stupid things. I would be reluctant to lable all those involved as being criminal.

[Guest davelfc]

BBC News - Riot costs could 'decimate' police authorities' funds

 

Funds held by English police authorities could be "decimated" by claims made for damage caused by the riots in English towns and cities.

 

Under the Riot (Damages) Act of 1886, insurers and the uninsured could claim costs from police authorities.

 

The Association of Police Authorities (APA) described the Riot Act as an "out of date law".

 

But the Association of British Insurers (ABI) said the regulations had worked well for 125 years.

[Code]

As Whelan alluded to though,if the Poles,Russians etc,lose their job they have always got the option to return home.

For UK workers its everything to them and they cant just leave the country as the overseas workers can.

Its easier to work for less money if its only for a short time and its just about saving a few quid.

 

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

[Sugar Ape]

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

 

What kinds of jobs Code?

[Whelan]

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

 

In all honesty Code probably not. And that is not necessarily because of ignorance, it is purely from a complete lack of awareness of the possibilities.

 

It isn't laziness in any form just that this is not something that would cross their minds.

 

I never even considered leaving the Country up until this last year, and I am in my late 30's and enjoy finding out about other cultures.

[lfcwonderboy1]

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

 

Do you think there educated enough? there will make this country look bad.

 

But what jobs? i wouldn't mind working in Norway a year our two

[Captain]

Code in chatting shit shocker.

[Section_31]

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

 

It isn't really a jobs issue though. People keep saying it is, but I don't agree. The people you see rioting now are already fucked, they're rabid dogs. But society has to take the blame for that. They weren't all spawned by some magic beans, they've been brought up in areas that are built on fear, built on the need to survive and have some kind of street skills. Family life, community life, all the things which may have helped them become better people, has been completely dismantled here in favour of a system which values nothing other than personal wealth.

 

Where the real injustice lies is that we've gone backwards. We had something, the working class had something worth holding on to, but it was destroyed because it wasn't valued by people who didn't need it or understand it - and that's where much of the anger comes from. Many people don't even know why they feel the rage, the fear or the despair, but this is why, IMO.

[Code]

In all honesty Code probably not. And that is not necessarily because of ignorance, it is purely from a complete lack of awareness of the possibilities.

 

It isn't laziness in any form just that this is not something that would cross their minds.

 

Its just something that annoys me.

 

I admire people who take the step and move abroad to look for jobs, those complaining about people coming to their country to steal their jobs not so much.

 

If they wanted these jobs in the first place they would have just as big a chance to get most of them.

 

To me its just something people use as an excuse for their own faults.

[Phoenix]

Would it even enter these peoples minds to move abroad to look for jobs?

 

There are jobs in Norway for those who are tough enough to rise to the challenge and move.

 

I presume they would look for basic education, which rules out majority of the looters. Maybe as a punishment for the looting, a prison school could be set up.

 

Punishment and getting something positive out of the mess.

[Section_31]

Do you think there educated enough? there will make this country look bad.

 

...

[Code]

What kinds of jobs Code?

 

All sorts.

 

If you are unemployed in Norway its got everything to do with your own attitude and you unwillingness to either move a few miles or that you think some jobs are beneath you.

[Whelan]

Its just something that annoys me.

 

I admire people who take the step and move abroad to look for jobs, those complaining about people coming to their country to steal their jobs not so much.

 

If they wanted these jobs in the first place they would have just as big a chance to get most of them.

 

To me its just something people use as an excuse for their own faults.

 

That is the problem though Code! This is not about the characteristics that you admire, in fact it is about being able to understand people who you quite possibly find abhorrent!

 

People seem to be judging everyone involved from how they would deal with the situation, but that isn't going to help you understand why people behave as they do, and I do think that we do have to begin to try and understand why! As that is the only way that we can begin to improve. I have had periods when life was quite simply shit, but it got better, it doesn't always work out like that and I think had I grown up surrounded by people who are unemployed, uneducated I would also feel that shit is as good as it gets.

 

This doesn't mean that they are not luckier, but I remember the disgust about the Bulger killers until I remembered the kid who lived at the bottom of my street, and how I used to pity him and his life, I never for one moment felt it would lead where it did.

[JohnnyH]

So far we've blamed the blacks, the Tories and the middle classes. When are we going to start blaming the gays? If they all pull together and start flaming down the streets then we're all up shit creak*

 

 

 

 

*every single pun intended, no matter how bad.

[3 Colours Red]

The thing that confuses me is that like 1981 it tends to be the same areas of the same cities. Why Toxteth and not Scotland Rd or Speke. Why Bristol but not Newcastle. Whilst on the subject why don't the major Scottish cities seem to join in?

[Captain]

As long as you don't blame the nggers you'll be alright.

[Anubis]

People are looking at this in far too basic a manner. It's not really about jobs. It's not really about benefits. It's about a breakdown in society. A breakdown in community. And a breakdown in moral values.

 

If someone where to do a search of my posts over the last few years, you'd find several posts (which attracted little comment at the time) about how I've watched a deterioration in moral values of the youths coming through the youth justice system over the past 17 years, and about how we were storing up trouble for ourselves. These boys come from dysfunctional homes or the care system, with little or no moral compass, and no safety net from the community around them (in terms of anyone stepping in to address that). In addition, like the rest of society they've been bombarded with outside influences such as lifestyle advertising and a general demand for five minutes of fame for doing fuck all (there is a reason comapnies spend shitloads on advertising and a reason this country has a credit debt crisis). All of this has created a false sense of entitlement - to be fair not only among them, but among society at large as shows like Big Brother and X Factor attest to.

 

The lads I deal with are pretty much the youths you're seeing on the street. Taking benefits away won't hurt them because they're not on benefits. Signing on gets in the way of their low level drug dealing which funds their gang uniforms and their own drug taking. they can't get credit, so they take what they perceive should be theirs.

 

I honestly don't think you can reach them, because this has been developing over a long period of time. Maybe a few, but en masse? My worry is about the generations below them, because these lads and girls are breeding, often with children to several different fathers, and those kids aren't going to grow up with anyone to instill values in them either. If I'm honest, that's where we should be looking to concentrate our efforts. And we need to, or this will cycle round every few years.

[tea]

Talk about eating your words, this is an extract from September's Guardian about Theresa May :-

 

The home secretary, Theresa May, has dismissed fears that deep spending cuts could undermine the ability of the police to tackle possible civil unrest, and insisted the British did not respond to austerity by rioting on the streets.

 

 

The full article is here:-

 

Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest | UK news | guardian.co.uk

[Anubis]

What has encouraged me over the last few days, is seeing the decent pockets of the community come together - such as the groups clearing up and some of the groups standing watch over their communities (not the BNP element). We could do with encouraging these people and helping them. Seriously helping them. Because they have, for a long time, been living in fear of the scum.

[Code]

That is the problem though Code! This is not about the characteristics that you admire, in fact it is about being able to understand people who you quite possibly find abhorrent!

 

People seem to be judging everyone involved from how they would deal with the situation, but that isn't going to help you understand why people behave as they do, and we do have to begin understanding why as it is the only way that we can begin to improve. I have had periods when life was quite simply shit, but it got better, it doesn't always work out like that and I think had I grown up surrounded by people who are unemployed, uneducated I would also feel that shit is as good as it gets.

 

In my view they behave like they do because no one have ever made them take responsibility for anything in their life.

 

Where and when it all started to go wrong for the UK is a different discussion and I have a few points I would raise in such a discussion, but right now the only important thing is how to stop these riots, how to prevent them from happening again should be discussed later.

 

As I see it there are no "excuses" for such behaviour, there might be explanations but still no excuses.

 

The rules and laws in a country is supposed to mirror/reflect the expectations/morale the population in the country have to different matters.

 

I`m not saying its about emplyment either, its simply about whats right and wrong, no matter who they are and where they are from, these people are breaking the laws of the country and for that they need to be punished.

 

PS- I wish I could write this in my own language as it would make much more sense and I would be able to put my arguments forward a lot better.

[TSC]

Whilst on the subject why don't the major Scottish cities seem to join in?

 

Protected from most/the worst of the cuts through the devolved govt?

[Phoenix]

Protected from most/the worst of the cuts through the devolved govt?

 

No they just stick to the football riots and violence

[andymc]

It isn't really a jobs issue though. People keep saying it is, but I don't agree. The people you see rioting now are already fucked, they're rabid dogs. But society has to take the blame for that. They weren't all spawned by some magic beans, they've been brought up in areas that are built on fear, built on the need to survive and have some kind of street skills. Family life, community life, all the things which may have helped them become better people, has been completely dismantled here in favour of a system which values nothing other than personal wealth.

 

Where the real injustice lies is that we've gone backwards. We had something, the working class had something worth holding on to, but it was destroyed because it wasn't valued by people who didn't need it or understand it - and that's where much of the anger comes from. Many people don't even know why they feel the rage, the fear or the despair, but this is why, IMO.

 

 

 

mate best post i've read i've been teaching in London a few years and some kids have no idea to even know how to aspire to a different life. You aren't born with that level of despair, what has happened has been awful and can't be excused but people aren't born that way and people no longer know about what community spirit is or should be about.

 

Read quite a few of your posts and good to see someone talking so much sense.

[Section_31]

The Scottish cities thing is a fascinating one in all honesty, I think the answer lies in the fact they don't feel betrayed and shat on to the same extent. Under the devolved Government and with the SNP in control, they probably feel like they have an exciting future and people in control who are willing to put them first, rather than shareholders, bankers and Tesco. Whether this is the case or not is another matter, but I'd bet good money that is the perception.

 

If Scotland wasn't devolved and the shots were being called by Cameron still, I absolutely guarantee they'd all be joining in with aplomb.

 

Maybe this is something that deserves to be examined in greater detail.