Cameron: "Cuts will change our way of life"

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The NHS definately improved under Labour, I've no idea if education did though. They opened uni up to a lot more people that's for sure, but are people leaving school, uni any smarter than they did back then? I doubt very much - much of it is smoke and mirrors IMO.

 

Education on the whole was terrifically improved, I'd say. Probably more improvement in the state of schools and the quality of education across the board than in health.

[dennis tooth]

Education didnt actually improve.

[Tyler Durden]

Education facilities Definetly improved

[Section_31]

Education facilities Definetly improved

 

I agree there, although at what cost probably isn't yet clear judging by the amount of PFI involved. One school around ours for instance is commited to pay for facilities management to the construction firm that built it for the next 30 years. It budgets based on pupil intake, but a Tory inspired free school is on about starting up in its back yard, and if it takes a considerable amount of pupils away from it it won't have the cash to cover those payments, what would happen in that event is anyone's guess.

 

I still wonder how education is judged to have improved. Are this generation of young people any better educated than mine? I seriously, seriously doubt it.

[cochyn]

Primary school education improved massively mate.

 

Not to mention pre-school provision with SureStart. It'll take ten years to make proper judgement but it was the right move to target kids at the beginning of their formative years.

[dennis tooth]

All they did was find away around. Ill be honesr I did well at gcses but the teachers in many subjects had been to seminars and knew which questions were gonna be asked.

The tory plan is to outlaw the seminars, let grades fall, cry to high heaven with media in tow, use it as an excuse to push in more academy statuses against popular resistance, finally with a few withering public funded state responsible and accountable schools left finalise privatisation of academy schools.

 

You know I shit knowledge for the children.

Either way the tories are not for turning.

[Tyler Durden]

I agree there, although at what cost probably isn't yet clear judging by the amount of PFI involved. One school around ours for instance is commited to pay for facilities management to the construction firm that built it for the next 30 years. It budgets based on pupil intake, but a Tory inspired free school is on about starting up in its back yard, and if it takes a considerable amount of pupils away from it it won't have the cash to cover those payments, what would happen in that event is anyone's guess.

 

I still wonder how education is judged to have improved. Are this generation of young people any better educated than mine? I seriously, seriously doubt it.

 

PFI is an absolute cunt of a way to get any type of building done, whoever it was who decided that was the way forward should be hung,drawn and quartered. Its going to be a weight around the necks of these hospitals/schools etc for years to come.

The only thing I'll say I that when labour came in the government couldn't fund the massive refurbishments/rebuilds all these places needed after our current incumbents had done fuck all in places like Liverpool for years, I'll tell you what though having your lessons in a nice Eco friendly building as opposed to the fucking mobile buildings (containers) has got to be a better place to learn, even if we don't see the immediate effects.

 

And that's from seeing what my old West Derby school has change to from when I was there.

[Section_31]

All they did was find away around. Ill be honesr I did well at gcses but the teachers in many subjects had been to seminars and knew which questions were gonna be asked.

The tory plan is to outlaw the seminars, let grades fall, cry to high heaven with media in tow, use it as an excuse to push in more academy statuses against popular resistance, finally with a few withering public funded state responsible and accountable schools left finalise privatisation of academy schools.

 

You know I shit knowledge for the children.

Either way the tories are not for turning.

 

Agree with that bit.

 

I've said before that New Labour was dealing with much of the fallout of Thatcher's decision to set us on a course for selfishness. The breakdown of community, youth crime, binge drinking, so-called anti-scoial behaviour etc all stemmed from creating a culture that values only personal wealth IMO.

 

New Labour either didn't understand or care enough to try and reverse those policies (with people like Mandelson around - you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as enamoured with wealth and celebrity as him, with Blair eventually catching what he was spreading, I imagine the latter) but to its credit it at least tried to handle some of the fallour of those policies, things like the forementioned SureStart - which is essentially the state stepping into the breach left by the loss of community and family breakdown, which IMO stemmed from those previous Tory policies.

 

Problem was, it was and is just a sticking plaster. So you've got new PFI schools with teachers in them who - because there's been a loss of quality jobs in other industries due to offshoring and globalisation - have fallen into the profession merely because it pays well and they've got a degree (again, Labour trying to patch over the real issue, no jobs for young people? Send them all to college - no jobs when they get out? Let the state employ them)

 

But the kids are still often borderline feral, again, a fallout from social and family breakdown. So what you're left with his teachers who often can't be arsed being left to be a childminder come social worker, trying to keep the kids distracted during the day (my teacher mate does it with games consoles he's spent his media budget on) until the parents come and pick them up. Then the teacher goes home, sinks a cider, and plans his next house extension.

 

The fundamental issues aren't being dealt with though, and smoke and mirrors are used to make us all think things are getting better. Exam boards (which used to be non profit but which are now businesses) sell exams based on how 'passable' they are, the school wants kids to pass because it too is a business and it wants to advertise the fact it got a '100%' GCSE pass rate (a ludicrous notion in itself) so it can attract more kids and get more cash.

 

During Ofsted inspections - at my mate's school at least - all the naughty kids are sent to Alton Towers for the day.

 

Exam boards pretent to examine, teachers pretend to teach, kids pretend to learn. And at the end of it what are you left with? Lots and lots of low skilled, low paid public sector workers- many of whom are set for the chop.

[VladimirIlyich]

I don't understand the people who say this, then slam the current government's plans on health and education, which are just a natural progression. Fair enough if you opposed that sort of thing back then too.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again,Ive lived through a previous Tory government and I'm not expecting the kind of investment the previous Labour government had,quite the opposite in fact.

 

By immediately tripling tuition fees past behaviour looks like being repeated.

As for the NHS,those of us who use it regularly can already see standards slipping and the Health professionals can see this also.

[dennis tooth]

Agree with that bit.

 

I've said before that New Labour was dealing with much of the fallout of Thatcher's decision to set us on a course for selfishness. The breakdown of community, youth crime, binge drinking, so-called anti-scoial behaviour etc all stemmed from creating a culture that values only personal wealth IMO.

 

New Labour either didn't understand or care enough to try and reverse those policies (with people like Mandelson around - you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as enamoured with wealth and celebrity as him, with Blair eventually catching what he was spreading, I imagine the latter) but to its credit it at least tried to handle some of the fallour of those policies, things like the forementioned SureStart - which is essentially the state stepping into the breach left by the loss of community and family breakdown, which IMO stemmed from those previous Tory policies.

 

Problem was, it was and is just a sticking plaster. So you've got new PFI schools with teachers in them who - because there's been a loss of quality jobs in other industries due to offshoring and globalisation - have fallen into the profession merely because it pays well and they've got a degree (again, Labour trying to patch over the real issue, no jobs for young people? Send them all to college - no jobs when they get out? Let the state employ them)

 

But the kids are still often borderline feral, again, a fallout from social and family breakdown. So what you're left with his teachers who often can't be arsed being left to be a childminder come social worker, trying to keep the kids distracted during the day (my teacher mate does it with games consoles he's spent his media budget on) until the parents come and pick them up. Then the teacher goes home, sinks a cider, and plans his next house extension.

 

The fundamental issues aren't being dealt with though, and smoke and mirrors are used to make us all think things are getting better. Exam boards (which used to be non profit but which are now businesses) sell exams based on how 'passable' they are, the school wants kids to pass because it too is a business and it wants to advertise the fact it got a '100%' GCSE pass rate (a ludicrous notion in itself) so it can attract more kids and get more cash.

 

During Ofsted inspections - at my mate's school at least - all the naughty kids are sent to Alton Towers for the day.

 

Exam boards pretent to examine, teachers pretend to teach, kids pretend to learn. And at the end of it what are you left with? Lots and lots of low skilled, low paid public sector workers- many of whom are set for the chop.

 

Yeah what I was getting at.

 

Add in the fact that you have PFI schemes which add another 80% onto the costs than if the state had just funded them outright and you are left with the deficit we now have and you have to wonder whether the Tories and Labour have colluded to carry out a wider agenda.

[VladimirIlyich]

Yeah what I was getting at.

 

Add in the fact that you have PFI schemes which add another 80% onto the costs than if the state had just funded them outright and you are left with the deficit we now have and you have to wonder whether the Tories and Labour have colluded to carry out a wider agenda.

 

Are you saying that a Labour Government with a leader whose Father was a tory colluded to benefit future tory governments?

 

I cant believe that!

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I love reading Section's post and views on the world.

[dennis tooth]

Are you saying that a Labour Government with a leader whose Father was a tory colluded to benefit future tory governments?

 

I cant believe that!

 

Failing that the architects are the beneficiaries, the elites.

It could be supposed, my preposition and implemented by way of deliberate organised conspiracy or as an effect of the premeditated system or not withstanding vested interests and the logical conclusion of reality when pressed against such a weighted system. In the end the effect would be the same.

Without evidence, the money should be followed, crotches get sniffed while nervous glances exchange until the truth is uncovered in all its glorious might.

Im not going to make it easy for no one, least of all myself but the bottom of the smoking barrel should be scraped once shooting the fish has commenced, only problem is it has been comandeered by Dexter Fletcher Christian Science monitor media and they are holding the ladle. It writhes like a maggot in their hand so mutiny on the capitalist bounty becomes the only end, after that we write the rest of the Mike Storey ourselves.

 

Fuck afterdinner, Aljaminihad, after eight mint jackets.

[Strontium]

PFI is an absolute cunt of a way to get any type of building done, whoever it was who decided that was the way forward should be hung,drawn and quartered.

 

 

If you know anything about Labour councils, you know that they tend to underspend on maintenance and spend big on jobs for the comrades. The result is that any big capital projects are slumworthy within a decade. The Tories came up with PFI as an undemocratic way of locking the loony left out of running anything for a generation by setting fixed costs that run for the entirety of the (very long) contract.

 

Unfortunately, having loaded the gun, the Tories didn't have the foresight to consider what would happen when they then had to hand it over. Because while PFI is okay in principle it only works if contracts aren't negotiated by idiots. Fast forward a few years and we're tied into paying 300 quid to get a lightbulb changed for the next few decades.

[dennis tooth]

"Because while PFI is okay in principle"

 

No, no its not. Its like saying paying extra for anything with no sane reason to do so is ok in principle, why would anyone want to do that?

[Section_31]

If you know anything about Labour councils, you know that they tend to underspend on maintenance and spend big on jobs for the comrades

 

Explain with examples please SD.

[Strontium]

I can't think of any specifics offhand. I suppose Liverpool in the 80s springs to mind, when the city went to hell in a handcart while the council was massively overstaffed.

[Hand Shandy]

So you don't actually know anything about Labour councils then Stronts?

[Strontium]

I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of everything they've ever done, if that's what you're asking. I thought it was a relatively uncontroversial point. They always spend more money employing people than the other parties do.

[Hand Shandy]

I stay out of politics threads because a) I can't be arsed with going round and round in circles and b) there are others on her (yourself included Stronts) who are clearly more knowledgeable about the whole circus.

 

However, you can't come out with

 

If you know anything about Labour councils, you know that they tend to underspend on maintenance and spend big on jobs for the comrades.

 

and then say

 

I can't think of any specifics offhand.

 

It makes you look a bit of a tit.

[Section_31]

So you don't actually know anything about Labour councils then Stronts?

 

[Strontium]

Surely you can make a general point without remembering all the specifics. For instance, I know fuck all about physics, but I know that oppositely charged particles attract each other, without having any inkling of the mechanics behind it.

[Section_31]

Surely you can make a general point without remembering all the specifics. For instance, I know fuck all about physics, but I know that oppositely charged particles attract each other, without having any inkling of the mechanics behind it.

 

Pissing myself at that, are you bladdered mate?

 

"Labour councils are well known for not spending on infrastructure projects and giving all the money to their comrades."

 

"Do you know of any that have?"

 

"No."

 

Police forces run by women are well known for having officers with well-ironed pants.

[dennis tooth]

As if the tories and libs dont employ comrads.

Gay boyfreind libs or tory freinds waltzing round the mod with advisor cards.

 

 

Go head with that shit sd, save yourself another embarrasing dismantling of your premise, its my round, here a nice tall glass of stfu.

Theres a billion examples Im just dying to drag up and you have some shit from the eighties?

[dennis tooth]

Pop quiz, which libdem was asking what had happend to Nick clegg and why he was going after poor and disabled people for their money today?