Is it safe to come out yet? - by John Brennan

[johnb]

The problem isn't your arguments, it's how you originally chose to portray them and your (ahem) premature expectation issue (Secret is safe with me)...

Yes, of course it's premature to expect changes to a defence which continues to leak goals like there's no tomorrow over a HUNDRED games into his reign.

 

Put the snarkiness to one side and look at the facts. 

 

If you think he can get it right, then good for you. I think it's going to end in tears.

[moof]

Yes, of course it's premature to expect changes to a defence which continues to leak goals like there's no tomorrow over a HUNDRED games into his reign.

 

Put the snarkiness to one side and look at the facts.

 

If you think he can get it right, then good for you. I think it's going to end in tears.

Your tears, when we win the everything.

 

Fact.

[Tony Moanero]

Bourbons every time.

 

 

I'd rather eat dog biscuits.

[liverpoolsno9]

Another thread that's going off on a tangent due to Tony's boring, inane, irrelevant posts. Such a funny bloke.

[Tony Moanero]

Another thread that's going off on a tangent due to Tony's boring, inane, irrelevant posts. Such a funny bloke.

 

 

I can only dream of being as cool and interesting as you, liverpoolsno9.

 

[Rotpeter]

Yes, of course it's premature to expect changes to a defence which continues to leak goals like there's no tomorrow over a HUNDRED games into his reign.

 

Put the snarkiness to one side and look at the facts. 

 

If you think he can get it right, then good for you. I think it's going to end in tears.

 

It's another part of the team performing relative to how much has been invested in it (-$15m). 

 

Given Klopp is very obviously working on a different timeline than your expectations, I think, it's going to continue with in fume (at chez johnb).

[aws]

I seem to remember that in the bad old days of Gerard and Rafa when we occasionally won things the main criticism was that the brakes needed to be taken off and the players just needed to be unleashed to twat everyone because we are Liverpool. The other big criticism was that they bought squad fillers and if only they would use their budget to buy a couple of quality players every season the side would inevitably improve over time instead of standing still. Well Jurgen must have been a regular on here because that is what he seems to be trying to do.

 

I don't see the point in comparing our stats to League winners unless the expectation is that the manager must over-achieve and surpass three other sides with massively greater resources who also happen to be managed by top managers. If we expect over-achievement then the only realistic approach is to invest time and money in a manager and see what he can do when he has had a proper opportunity to build his own side.

 

Our defence is shit though.

[Jennings]

Its the fucking corners that are the most frustrating.

[Rotpeter]

Its the fucking corners that are the most frustrating.

Nah, the Canbot rebooting in our penalty area instead of making a last ditch tackle is.

[Brownie]

I seem to remember that in the bad old days of Gerard and Rafa when we occasionally won things the main criticism was that the brakes needed to be taken off and the players just needed to be unleashed to twat everyone because we are Liverpool. The other big criticism was that they bought squad fillers and if only they would use their budget to buy a couple of quality players every season the side would inevitably improve over time instead of standing still. Well Jurgen must have been a regular on here because that is what he seems to be trying to do.

 

I don't see the point in comparing our stats to League winners unless the expectation is that the manager must over-achieve and surpass three other sides with massively greater resources who also happen to be managed by top managers. If we expect over-achievement then the only realistic approach is to invest time and money in a manager and see what he can do when he has had a proper opportunity to build his own side.

 

Our defence is shit though.

The ambition always has to be to win the league, whether it’s realistic or not. Not an expectation of course but definitely an ambition.

 

You need the balance between scoring and conceding. We’ve always had the balance wrong. Twice it’s been close to being right and on both occasions i’d argue that it was when the breaks were off.

 

The reasons for not doing it in 08/09 were because of 0-0’s at home relatively early in the season (before the breaks well and truly came off).

 

13/14 was ironically the lack of ability to get a 0-0! Infuriating stuff.

[VladimirIlyich]

Hoist up the snoop johnb.

[JoeBuck]

Good post John but I still think it's too early to judge whether progress has been made this season , which seems to be the premise of your argument - are we progressing?

 

The 1st half of last season saw us hit Champions form (43/ 86 points), the 2nd half UEFA form (33/ 66 points). Beat the Geordies on Sunday, which we will, and that would be 2 points per game which is CL form. So progress is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I still come back to our 12 games against the top 6 and our 7 wins / 5 draws and only 8 goals conceded (and that includes 3 against the Arse on the opening day). Therefore we can be defensively sound when we set ourselves up that way.

 

Our issue has always been breaking teams down and signing Salah helps with that, plus plays Phil as an attacking playmaker. We just need to cut out the individual defensive errors ( two more last night for their goal).

 

Clearly Van Dijk would have been much better at defending the space allowed the opposition than Lovren ( whose more comfortable attacking the ball in front of him)and Clyne is better than any alternative at right back. I'm hoping Klopp will coach the promising Robertson to do this too.

[Mr T]

A very obvious problem is that our defence and goalkeeper is consistently poor. We can virtually guarantee we are going to ship at least one goal per game. 

 

The attack on the other hand is inconsistently good. Players like Firminio and Salah on good days can score for fun. On bad days they can miss tap ins.

 

Put that attack and that defence together and you get a few games where teams are smashed but you also get many frustrating draws or tight losses even where we dominate.

 

It isn't very complex really.

[G Richards]

Article was reasonable for me. One thing I didn't like was the arbitrary chopping up of games into 25 game blocks. I like seasons as a unit of measure when trying to assess what's what. On that score, Klopp's first season saw us get to two cup finals, win neither, but still two finals so not bad, and then finish 8th in the league. It was 30 games, so the manager doesn't get a free pass, as such, but it wasn't really his season either, as he didn't buy players and didn't do preseason, etc. He was getting up to speed at Liverpool. 

 

His first full season saw us finish fourth. Big improvement on where we were. OK, no trophies, so nothing to get too excited about, but improvement nevertheless. It caused us to look ahead again with real hope, provided we got things right in the market...

 

His second full season has just begun. So far we haven't really found our stride so I'm not going to weigh in on what we've seen in just a few games as a couple of results here and there will skew it significantly. It seems obvious that the big miss of the summer was not improving central defence. 

 

The point is well made that the defence is lacking. That seems to be the one constant throughout. Get that right and we can challenge for the title, with a fair wind. As things stand we will probably be fighting Spurs and Arsenal to nab fourth spot. 

 

Still, there's loads of football to be played so we will have to see. 

[VladimirIlyich]

Article was reasonable for me. One thing I didn't like was the arbitrary chopping up of games into 25 game blocks. I like seasons as a unit of measure when trying to assess what's what. On that score, Klopp's first season saw us get to two cup finals, win neither, but still two finals so not bad, and then finish 8th in the league. It was 30 games, so the manager doesn't get a free pass, as such, but it wasn't really his season either, as he didn't buy players and didn't do preseason, etc. He was getting up to speed at Liverpool.

 

His first full season saw us finish fourth. Big improvement on where we were. OK, no trophies, so nothing to get too excited about, but improvement nevertheless. It caused us to look ahead again with real hope, provided we got things right in the market...

 

His second full season has just begun. So far we haven't really found our stride so I'm not going to weigh in on what we've seen in just a few games as a couple of results here and there will skew it significantly. It seems obvious that the big miss of the summer was not improving central defence.

 

The point is well made that the defence is lacking. That seems to be the one constant throughout. Get that right and we can challenge for the title, with a fair wind. As things stand we will probably be fighting Spurs and Arsenal to nab fourth spot.

 

Still, there's loads of football to be played so we will have to see.

I always enjoy your shit sarnies Rev,optimism at the start,a blob of pessimism in the middle and a topping of 'anything is still possible.' Your sermons must be ace.

[johnb]

Article was reasonable for me. One thing I didn't like was the arbitrary chopping up of games into 25 game blocks. I like seasons as a unit of measure when trying to assess what's what. On that score, Klopp's first season saw us get to two cup finals, win neither, but still two finals so not bad, and then finish 8th in the league. It was 30 games, so the manager doesn't get a free pass, as such, but it wasn't really his season either, as he didn't buy players and didn't do preseason, etc. He was getting up to speed at Liverpool. 

 

His first full season saw us finish fourth. Big improvement on where we were. OK, no trophies, so nothing to get too excited about, but improvement nevertheless. It caused us to look ahead again with real hope, provided we got things right in the market...

 

His second full season has just begun. So far we haven't really found our stride so I'm not going to weigh in on what we've seen in just a few games as a couple of results here and there will skew it significantly. It seems obvious that the big miss of the summer was not improving central defence. 

 

The point is well made that the defence is lacking. That seems to be the one constant throughout. Get that right and we can challenge for the title, with a fair wind. As things stand we will probably be fighting Spurs and Arsenal to nab fourth spot. 

 

Still, there's loads of football to be played so we will have to see. 

Arbitrary chopping up.

 

That's literally the best way to show a "rolling average" and thus, our progress (or lack thereof).

 

But I get the season-on-season comparison, the only total that counts, after all.

 

We've made progress but are we making progress? Time will tell. But if you guaranteed me 76 points now, I'd snatch your hand off.

[G Richards]

I see what you mean, and a 25 game sample is a good size. I just happen to think that once the league had gone (not that it was ever on!) and then once top four had gone, Klopp was mostly assessing his players and also looking at the cups. The league wasn't irrelevant, but it almost became that and we finished a paltry 8th. 

 

Overall we are progressing, but if you zoom in on this season thus far, there are obvious concerns! We need more data to see if the improvement trend continues. I'm hoping we maintain a foothold in the top four, then with the addition of Keita and improvements to the defence (surely) we may go on to mount a credible title challenge. 

 

I'm as interested as the next man in seeing how it pans out.

[Numero Veinticinco]

That’s the thing with the Cheerleader-in-Chief. Nothing sticks. Get beaten 5-0 at City? He has a built-in excuse with Mané’s sending-off. It would be cynical to suggest that was why he made such a big deal out of it, of course. Concede three at Watford? It wasn’t “that bad” and “too much was made of our defending”. Score on the counter-attack? Shout “That’s football!” at the crowd in a self-congratulatory manner. He’s above us all, isn’t he? The defence is just the on-field manifestation of this guy’s arrogance.

 

John Brennan

@JohnAPBrennan

 

Any change in opinion about the job the 'Cheerleader-in-Chief' is doing, John? Unless I missed it, I've not seen you post an opinion piece since your 'Facts' post back on 26th September. Some might have said the 26th September, or as with this, the 15th, might have been a little early to stick the boot in, but fair enough. Maybe it's a time for some other 'facts'. Let's see how the 'Arrogant One' has been doing since you last aired your grievance.

 

Fact 1. We have played 20 games in all competitions since your last airing on 26th September. In those 20 games, we have scored 58 goals and conceded 17. 10 of those goals came in just three away matches against Spurs, Arsenal, and Sevilla. If one was so inclined, you could call those three results an aberration and it would be 51 scored and 7 conceded, but we conceded 'em so they count.

 

Fact 2. In those 20 games, 10 of them have been clean sheets, 7 have been single goal concessions (4 wins, 3 x 1-1 draws). Only three times have we conceded more than one goal. Those three listed above.

 

Fact 3. We kicked the arsehole out of Europe, scoring 20 goals, conceding 3, topping our group.

 

Fact 4. Premier League. 16 games. Scored 38. Conceded 14. Half of which game in two away games against Spurs and Arsenal. P16 W9 D6 L1. Draws have hurt us. I expect this to even out over the season as four of the six draws have included games against Manchester United, Chelsea, Everton, and Arsenal.

 

Fact 5. Our home is turning into a fortress again. In all competitions, we have played 10, scored 25, conceded 3. In the League we have played 8, scored 15, conceded 3 (Chelsea, Everton, Leicester). In the league this season it's 21 scored, 4 conceded, no losses. Decent signed, if not perfect with draws.

 

Fact 6. The defensive problem hasn't gone away, but it has improved. That isn't down to personnel. It is down to training ground work and coaching. We have since added a 75m centreback to help in that area.

 

Fact 7. I'm working from home, was bored, and think we have improved. That's the only reason I did this, not some strange vendetta. I think the improvement is down to Klopp. He's a good manager and you were harsh in using terms like 'cheerleader-in-chief'. I think your judgement of Klopp is impaired by an irrational dislike of the man. I hope we keep progressing and you reevaluate things.

 

Fact 8. I've probably jinxed everything. I enjoy reading your post in a few months when we are 8th and you're putting your foot in. Sorry in advance.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

John can go in the summer. 

[Russ Atmosphere]

I'm all for judging people at the end of the season but that doesn't mean shutting up in the interim.

[moof]

Johnny B Wrong

[Grinch]

There's no real difference in how we're playing now and the start of the season.  Picking up a few more points that we deserve.

 

There's only been a handful of games where we've deserved very little.  Remarkable really with the squad Klopp has had available to him.   The man continues to overachieve and gets very little credit for it. 

[sir roger]

I am sure John will appear as soon as we lose a game.

 

Not sure where to put this , but was thinking last week during one of Klopp's interviews , his use of the English language is brilliant considering the relatively short time he has been here. Pochettino has been here since the war and still speaks like he is reading from a Janet & John book, and Conte is barely understandable at times whereas Jurgen comes out with belters like

' That is the beauty of free speech , you of course are allowed to say anything you want and I am allowed not to give a shit ' 

[Numero Veinticinco]

I am sure John will appear as soon as we lose a game.

 

Not sure where to put this , but was thinking last week during one of Klopp's interviews , his use of the English language is brilliant considering the relatively short time he has been here. Pochettino has been here since the war and still speaks like he is reading from a Janet & John book, and Conte is barely understandable at times whereas Jurgen comes out with belters like

' That is the beauty of free speech , you of course are allowed to say anything you want and I am allowed not to give a shit '

 

Haha. I liked that too. He’s German though, and had a half decent grasp before moving here.

[TheBitch]

I actually came across this thread last night while searching for something else and was gonna bump it, I didn't though because I didn't want to jinx it and it all be my fault for our downward spiral into mid table, so well done NV.