JoeBuck

So the two best attacking sides in Europe in terms of goals scored/ chances created / possession also posess the best defensive records in terms of goals conceded- Barca & City. Proof that attack acts as best form of defence. We're probably the 3rd best attacking side in Europe, but unfortunately our defenders are gnash. This is when Van Dijk comes in - covers the ( large defensive) space supremely and sniffs out danger. I also have my doubts but it's why Pep paid £50m for Stones - and probably why Paisley broke our transfer record for Lawro (the only defender I've ever seen mark Kenny out of a game when Brighton came to Anfield after they got promotion). For our all out attack minded team, this money makes sense for a centre back who has the athleticism to cover their glories.

sorry for my snide dig last night - no disrespect/ offence meant. As for Jordy - I just love the fella. Kenny identified him as a future Liverpool great (enough for me) and having shown balls to overcome the initial lack of faith in him, he became integral in our title challenge (and arguably we won have it had he not got suspended). He may not be Stevie in terms of his ability (we'll let the away shower sing about that), but he's a fine footballer and Rodgers, Klopp and three England Managers clearly see his leadership qualities. Every post match interview I feel proud of him to represent our Club and if he doesn't show enough drive and vocal encouragement on the pitch, then maybe that's because of his humility (see his lack of confidence when trying to mediate between the two show ponies over a penalty, Balotelli and Sturridge). Within our squid, Milner is the natural Captain but let's not disturb the "Carlos Puyol" of our next great side to emerge.

Don't get me wrong,I appreciate every thing all these players did for us, and good luck to them when they move on at the peak of their careers for more money/ greater glories, they're just not legends to me. As for Hendo, Carlos Puyol was the Captain of the greatest Club side ever with 3 of the best players ever (Messi, Xavi,Iniesta ) because he was an embodiment of their values.I suggest Hendo is the best representation of ours.

Taksim Square.

That song started in Tamsin Square as a put- down to Gerrard. And yes, let's have better and world class players around him, but it's right that we have someone who is true to the Club as Captain.

The Club nurtured him from the age of 11 to become the player he became. he won the biggest Club trophy and still petulantly wanted a move - would you have done that in you were him?

Well, anyone with the Forum name of "Maschereno" clearly has little understanding of our Club - didn't he go on strike in the summer of 2010 to get his dream move? But he's one of many "legends" who doesn't deserve the title - Keegan, Souness, Rush, McManaman, Owen, Gerrard, Torres, Suarez, Couthino. Shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the real legends - Liddell, Hunt, St John, Cally, Smith, Kenny, Hansen, Nicol, Carragher, Hyppia. Henderson may well become this generation's Cally. He may not be the most talented Liverpool midfielder ever , and it's not helped by Klopp playing him out of position, but he only sees and wants to help Liverpool get back to the top of the pile ( unlike someone who wants to move to win something).

Well, at least he's committed to our Club unlike his predecessor who wanted to leave for Mourinho's Chelsea for two summers in a row, even after we became European Champions. If anyone is trying to pin our decline in self esteem to this lad who came to us as a promising 20 year old but has given his all in every game since and understands the values of our Club, then they are misguided. The precious one who no one can out as a "treachous bastard", is largely to blame. We all dream of a team of Carraghers (and Hendersons)!

Good post John but I still think it's too early to judge whether progress has been made this season , which seems to be the premise of your argument - are we progressing? The 1st half of last season saw us hit Champions form (43/ 86 points), the 2nd half UEFA form (33/ 66 points). Beat the Geordies on Sunday, which we will, and that would be 2 points per game which is CL form. So progress is in the eye of the beholder. I still come back to our 12 games against the top 6 and our 7 wins / 5 draws and only 8 goals conceded (and that includes 3 against the Arse on the opening day). Therefore we can be defensively sound when we set ourselves up that way. Our issue has always been breaking teams down and signing Salah helps with that, plus plays Phil as an attacking playmaker. We just need to cut out the individual defensive errors ( two more last night for their goal). Clearly Van Dijk would have been much better at defending the space allowed the opposition than Lovren ( whose more comfortable attacking the ball in front of him)and Clyne is better than any alternative at right back. I'm hoping Klopp will coach the promising Robertson to do this too.

My expectations John is that we should be challenging for the League this season , get out of Group stages , and win a trophy. Be disappointed if these aren't achieved. My mid term expectations are to win the League in the next 2-3seasons and the European Cup in the next 3-4. You make a lot of fair points about Klopp and learning his lessons - probably the biggest one being that he can't turn Mignolet, Lovren, Moreno, Hendo (as a defensive midfielder) into the players he wants or we need and he should have rectified this by now. He's still great though:)

we'll be in the elite in Europe in 2 years when City, United and Chelsea are rebuilding (again). BTW, we were unbeaten against them all last season with 4 goals conceded, and can see us take apart any top side in Europe who like to build from the back - wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat of 04-05.

with of course...doing it "The Liverpool Way". Mourinho at United is part of the subconscious problem....short term , defensive-minded , heavy spending (albeit successful) pragmatism to Klopp's long term, attacking, developmental romanticism

one of the many reasons why modern football is so shit is this expectation of instant gratification/ success. Maybe if you're in a false economy world of a Chelsea, City or any Club Mourinho chooses to go to (proven 28 years old bought at top dollar, yet he's always gone by the end of the 3rd season having burnt out his squad). But it took Shankly 3 years to build a Championship team, Paisley two with a better foundation, Kendall 4 years, Ferguson longer etc etc. It took Klopp 3 full seasons to make Dortmund champions. The point is not to judge Klopp against the £200m spent by City/ United but what he is building. Granted, we may get frustrated at a lack of progress at times but if Klopp sees it as a 6 year project (his average tenure is 7 years) , then waiting a year for Van Dijk or Keita probably makes sense. Pep, Mourinho, and Conte will be gone in two years and those Clubs will continue to lack identity and soul and will need to start again. I would say we're similar to Spurs who are trying to build something legendary and sustainable.

Klopp is the best thing to happen to our Club for years and we should appreciate him. Yes, he gets things wrong, thinks he can turn water to wine, but he's here for the long term and HIS team will emerge over time - judge him after 3 full seasons. A criticism may be that he's too loyal to the players he inherited, overestimates them while they make mistake after mistake , thinks attack is the best form of defence ( see our full backs), probably needs his number 6 to shield and position himself correctly rather than press ( see the 2 goals on Tuesday due to Hendo's naviety). But he's fucking boss - the best attacking football in Europe , players will die for him, and he gets us and Our Club - his cheerleading is simply to find our old selves. As I say, we are lucky to have him.

I would play Moreno on the left of a front 3 with Robertson behind him to keep close to Mahrez. Play Coutinho in midfield where he can pull the strings with Can as the defensive midfielder. Would like to see Hendo revert to being a box to box player - energy is his main strength (see 13-14). Play and keep Gomez as right back until Clyne is fit.

In fairness Jockney, there's a lot of forumites who are old enough to remember Liverpool as Champions and not just a brand. Those who are old enough know that we needed a new keeper, left back, central defender, defence midfielder - all areas Klopp has failed to adddress after 4 transfer windows. Rafa would have sorted it out after one. If Klopp is not serious about winning the league , then he should fuck off now. I don't think he is - he is the perfect FSG poster boy - great , charismatic front man but not really serious about winning the League.

Ok, fair enough.

4 transfer windows in and he starts with Mingolet, Lovren and Moreno and without a natural defensive midfielder enforcer or striker. 5 problematic positions for 3 seasons now. Maybe there's something wrong with Klopp?

This is his 4th transfer and so the excuses are running out. Andy fucking Robertson is the best left back he could identify? - same profile and issues as Moreno. VVD is the Dutch Mark Wright... plays his own game positionally and hence is a £12m defender at best. What about his famed charisma for attracting German stars, and keeping the likes of Couthino and Can happy?

I absolutely love Milner - our best left back since Nicol in 87-88. I don't know if it's because he scores vital penalties in key games at key times (at Spurs, United, City etc) or just because he does everything right as a footballer - always makes the right choice , gets in the right position , even if it doesn't come off because he isn't a top level football, but one with a brilliant footballing brain. At my wedding 12 years ago, I had players names as my tables - a present from my wife. They weren't our greatest players ever - the St Johns, Keegans, Kenny, Rushie, Barnes, Gerrards etc - but the truly real "Liverpool" players - Jimmy Case, Barney, Nicol, Sammy Lee, Ronnie Whelan, Carragher, Alonso (even though he is a "great"). I would happily have Milner on there as a true "Liverpool" player. And Kuyt of course:)

I don't know what's worst about Origi - having a Championship striker leading our line - or The Kop singing his name at any excuse, such as closing their keeper down. Would defo keep Sturridge over him as our back up striker next season. For this match , would have liked to seen Klopp learn some lessons from our miserable home form this year and play two wide men with the full backs overlapping them. Rather than the redundant Lucas and the hopeless Origi - have TAA and Moreno as the two wide men to stretch them.

I'm beginning to feel ambivalent about Jurgen - he's still got a lot to prove which his gesticulating behaviour to the fans dosent help: - Seville - not sorting out the defence - poor signings - Karius, Klovan - no plan B - his general ignorance about the limitations of the players he inherited and hence delaying the upgrade -ineffectual and wrong substitutions He needs to create his team / squad this summer but certainly needs to be pUlled off his pedestal of being a false messiah

anyone singing that Seamus Coleman song should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves - the same cowardly shit that sing Munich songs in the pubs where's there' no away fans. would love for this scum to focus on supporting their England as they have no place in us.

I think this is it. Klopp still has our reserved if not unreserved backing. The blind faith has gone but the faith remains. In the summer, he needs to address all the faults we see and moan about every week - a dominating keeper and centre back for set pieces, a defensive midfielder to cut out counter attacks, a left winger to get behind and break down 10 men behind the ball, a mobile centre forward within the area, a left back who can defend as well as attack. It's no good him continuing to back this current crop of mentally weak primadonnas as we know they cannot be trusted. How much he will get is anyone's guest, but I would say £50m + sales must be the minimum. With a new spine and left wing, and perhaps playing his favoured 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho in the number 10 role , that would be HIS team and the expectations for next season should be for them to bed in together , finish top 4 and win a Cup. The expectations for 2018-19 is the challenge for the league (and win a Cup). The expectations for 2019-2020 would be to win the league. A similar timescale to his Dortmund success.

And Matip is awful - a long line of inadequate Bosmans. Of course what we need most is big investment in the summer but we need the right person to make that. Of course Klopp deserves the chance to do that but, with exception of the established Premiership Mane, not seen anything to suggest he will do anything. At least Rafa won't be selling his house in Caldy anytime soon.