Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Thomo123]

If Corbyn is the problem then Owen Smith aint the fucking answer. 

[Thomo123]

Mate, you are so partisan it's untrue. If you don't think people - on both sides - are getting abuse and death threats then it's not really worth discussing it with you. Luciana Berger is in the Echo today saying someone called and threatened that she would get it like Jo Cox did. And also called her Jewish scum. That's been passed to the police.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/wavertree-mp-luciana-berger-reports-11611673

 

I can post dozens of tweets for example of vile abuse, antisemitic too, aimed at MPs but I've no doubt you'll just dismiss it. As for secret ballots, it's clear that a majority of the NEC wanted a secret ballot but also that a majority of the NEC backed Corbyn so it's not just his opponents that saw the need for one. The NEC have held secret ballots on votes in the past too on previous occasions so I've read, I think Dennis Skinner was voted off the NEC in 2014 in a secret ballot.

 

On the specific case in question of the trade union representitive on the NEC, if you'd just had your personal details leaked on the internet and hundreds of threatening emails/texts sent to you then I think you might be calling for a secret ballot too. People seem to think it's disgusting if anyone brings up Jo Cox like it's pointscoring, but if you'd seen that happen to a colleague then you are getting threatened with it like Berger then you would  be taking it seriously.

 

None of that is to say people aren't embellishing things for their own ends, but clearly not everyone is and some people are having problems.

My issue with all this is the amount of blame being apportioned to Corbyn, austerity and social inequality are the root causes of all this disquiet. The language used by Berger was bang out of order imo, when people feel patronised and marginalised by the 'establishment' then things start to get out of control. Corbyn is merely a symbol for the struggles going on all over the country, these relentless attacks on him personally are fuelling these emotions. But many in the PLP just carry on regardless then cry wolf when the chickens come home to roost. 

[Anubis]

You'd have to hope that's what's on his mind. Obviously I'm just keeping an interested eye on that without even pretending that I have anything in the way of insightful comment on it; I'm reasonably adept at interpreting tax legislation but I don't fool myself that I can extrapolate that to offering informed opinions on complex constitutional matters about which I know very little. I'm sure that won't stop many, many others from offering their profound insights into it in the coming months though...

I don't think anyone has a scooby. We're in uncharted waters and I don't think anyone expected to be there. There are probably quite reasoned arguments for most points of view about how you'd trigger Art 50. The Article itself is so vague.

[Sugar Ape]

My issue with all this is the amount of blame being apportioned to Corbyn, austerity and social inequality are the root causes of all this disquiet. The language used by Berger was bang out of order imo, when people feel patronised and marginalised by the 'establishment' then things start to get out of control. Corbyn is merely a symbol for the struggles going on all over the country, these relentless attacks on him personally are fuelling these emotions. But many in the PLP just carry on regardless then cry wolf when the chickens come home to roost.

I'm sorry, the language used by Berger was bang out of order? Or do you mean the language used towards her was bang out of order.

 

I'm pretty sure no one is blaming Corbyn directly for any of the abuse but whether you agree with the PLP or not it's no excuse for some of the shit they receive, and Corbyn himself receives according to him.

 

I saw a tweet to Angela Eagle before saying it's a pity the brick missed but they hope she died of cancer. Not really on stuff like that is it? And there is a lot of it out there.

[Thomo123]

I'm sorry, the language used by Berger was bang out of order? Or do you mean the language used towards her was bang out of order.

 

I'm pretty sure no one is blaming Corbyn directly for any of the abuse but whether you agree with the PLP or not it's not excuse for some of the shit they receive, and Corbyn himself receives according to him.

 

I saw a tweet to Angela Eagle before saying it's a pity the brick missed but they hope she died of cancer. Not really on is it?

 

Of course its not really on but ffs its twitter.....accessed daily by a variety of absolute muppets. We live in a country with a population of millions, do you honestly think something so emotive isn't going to bring out the lunatics, or people so desperate they don't really give a fuck anymore or those just wanting to cause trouble....wake the fuck up mate. 

 

Coupled with the fact Politics is so fucking rotten nowadays means very few have respect for politicians anymore, the vileness of the Brexit campaign coupled with the tactics of most of the PLP in trying to get rid of Corbyn are just fueling the fire. Corbyn is guilty of being naive at worst in wanting the vote to be open and not secret, open and transparent democracy is his thing. Berger accused him of endorsing bullying....after he has spent the last month having his arsehole ripped apart by the mainstream media and his own PLP. Its fucking bizarre.

[Anubis]

Not everyone is an Owen Smith fan.

 

https://medium.com/@TenPercent/message-to-disabled-people-regarding-owen-smith-mps-leadership-bid-2de1eda0fd8d#.b53g0oyao

 

Message to disabled people regarding Owen Smith MPs Leadership bid

 

Liza Van Zyl, a disability rights activist has made this statement:

 

‘Owen Smith needs to be challenged robustly on his position on the Work Capability Assessment and on his commitment to disabled people’s rights. I was a Labour Party activist who had no choice but to resign from the party after a very unpleasant encounter with Mr Smith. I am recounting it now because I believe it is very important that his views are robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership.

 

On Saturday 7th March 2015 I attended a Labour meeting in Pontypridd at which the guest speaker was Owen Smith MP, then shadow secretary of state for Wales. When questions were invited from the floor, I asked Mr Smith why, given that the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) has been responsible for a great many more deaths than the Bedroom Tax, Labour had pledged to scrap the Bedroom Tax but had said nothing about pledging to scrap the WCA. Mr Smith replied that Labour could not pledge to scrap the WCA because this would make Labour appear weak on benefits in the eyes of the media and compromise Labour’s general-election chances.

 

I posted this on Facebook and a journalist took it up and posted the story online. Subsequently the journalist was threatened with legal action by Mr Smith if he did not take the story down. I was very intimidated by the prospect of defending myself in court, and I had no money for a legal defence. In addition my Labour colleagues were terribly keen to maintain good relations with Mr Smith and would probably have backed Mr Smith and not me if it came to a court case (one of them had even contacted the journalist and briefed against me). So I asked the journalist to pull the story and I deleted references to it on Facebook.

 

I am publicising this incident now because I am very concerned about Mr Smith’s attitude toward disabled people and particularly to his views that the deaths of disabled people are less important than Labour’s “tough on benefits” standing in the right wing press. If he threatens me with legal action again it will be incredibly stressful and will probably exacerbate my disability-related ill-health. But I believe it is important that Mr Smith’s attitudes to the WCA and to disability rights (and freedom of speech!) be robustly challenged if he stands for the Labour leadership. And because we should be able to discuss things that profoundly impact on us, like the WCA, without being intimidated into silence by threats of legal action. I am happy to provide more details to journalists who can contact me at

 

lvanzyl55@gmail.com’

[Sugar Ape]

Of course its not really on but ffs its twitter.....accessed daily by a variety of absolute muppets. We live in a country with a population of millions, do you honestly think something so emotive isn't going to bring out the lunatics, or people so desperate they don't really give a fuck anymore or those just wanting to cause trouble....wake the fuck up mate.

 

Coupled with the fact Politics is so fucking rotten nowadays means very few have respect for politicians anymore, the vileness of the Brexit campaign coupled with the tactics of most of the PLP in trying to get rid of Corbyn are just fueling the fire. Corbyn is guilty of being naive at worst in wanting the vote to be open and not secret, open and transparent democracy is his thing. Berger accused him of endorsing bullying....after he has spent the last month having his arsehole ripped apart by the mainstream media and his own PLP. Its fucking bizarre.

Don't tell me to wake the fuck up like I'm fucking stupid. A lunatic had just murdered a Labour MP and some of them are now getting death threats but ah well, can't expect people to behave. Probably just lunatics. You want to know what's really fucking stupid? People trying to excuse that kind of behaviour.

 

Berger said he endorsed bullying. She's had death threats and antisemitic abuse aimed at her, which I shouldn't have to remind you is illegal. I'm pretty sure I'm coming down on the side of what she said not deserving close to the response she's had.

[Jairzinho]

I'm sorry, the language used by Berger was bang out of order? Or do you mean the language used towards her was bang out of order.

 

I'm pretty sure no one is blaming Corbyn directly for any of the abuse but whether you agree with the PLP or not it's no excuse for some of the shit they receive, and Corbyn himself receives according to him.

 

I saw a tweet to Angela Eagle before saying it's a pity the brick missed but they hope she died of cancer. Not really on stuff like that is it? And there is a lot of it out there.

 

Well, they're holding him responsible. Both members of the PLP and the media. Corbyn should apparently have full control of everyone with access to a phone or computer.

 

And why is fuck all made of death threats to Corbyn? Or Dan Hodges' "Labour must kill vampire Corbyn" piece?

 

It's not on from both sides, but it is being used for political gain. Some dickhead chucks a brick through a window and the story that everyone in Momentum is a violent Stalinist can be pumped out again.

[Thomo123]

Don't tell me to wake the fuck up like I'm fucking stupid. A lunatic had just murdered a Labour MP and some of them are now getting death threats but ah well, can't expect people to behave. Probably just lunatics. You want to know what's really fucking stupid? People trying to excuse that kind of behaviour.

 

Berger said he endorsed bullying. She's had death threats and antisemitic abuse aimed at her, which I shouldn't have to remind you is illegal. I'm pretty sure I'm coming down on the side of what she said not deserving close to the response she's had.

 

 

No mate, you can have a reasonable expectation that people on the whole will be decent and conduct themselves with dignity. Berger said he endorsed bullying, but how the fuck is one man meant to control the actions of the minority? I live in the real world where i hear things on a regular basis that i find pretty abhorrent, everything I've seen and heard regarding JC make me think he is a decent and principled man, a man who wants a better and fairer society. Real change and not just half hearted policies that do little to change the status quo....and for that he is paying a pretty high price, one I'm sure he realises he has to pay to make a difference. 

 

You absolutely cannot have any sort of realistic expectation for everybody to behave, thats the reality.

[Sugar Ape]

Well, they're holding him responsible. Both members of the PLP and the media. Corbyn should apparently have full control of everyone with access to a phone or computer.

 

And why is fuck all made of death threats to Corbyn? Or Dan Hodges' "Labour must kill vampire Corbyn" piece?

 

It's not on from both sides, but it is being used for political gain. Some dickhead chucks a brick through a window and the story that everyone in Momentum is a violent Stalinist can be pumped out again.

I've clearly said, in at least two different posts, that Corbyn himself has said he's received death threats and it's a problem for both sides.

 

I've seen plenty of people slating the Dan Hodges article. Thing is, I don't think I've seen anyone defending it but I see plenty of people ( not you ) justifying the abuse members of the PLP or the NEC have received as they deserve it. It's wrong both ways and needs to stop from both sides.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, though I'm repeating myself now.

 

Some Labour MPs like Kinnock are being disingenuous and over egging things and putting unfair blame on Corbyn. That's wrong.

 

Some Labour MPs and evidentially members of the NEC who aren't MPs are receiving genuine abuse, some of it antisemitic, and I've got a problem with people, rather than condemning it, trying to make out that's it's either some Blairite conspiracy or doesn't really matter because, can't control nutters on Twitter, innit?

[Sugar Ape]

No mate, you can have a reasonable expectation that people on the whole will be decent and conduct themselves with dignity. Berger said he endorsed bullying, but how the fuck is one man meant to control the actions of the minority? I live in the real world where i hear things on a regular basis that i find pretty abhorrent, everything I've seen and heard regarding JC make me think he is a decent and principled man, a man who wants a better and fairer society. Real change and not just half hearted policies that do little to change the status quo....and for that he is paying a pretty high price, one I'm sure he realises he has to pay to make a difference.

 

You absolutely cannot have any sort of realistic expectation for everybody to behave, thats the reality.

We all live in the real world. I'm not nipping into Narnia for the night when I log off here.

 

The Twitter stuff is by the by, though obviously when people get racist shit tweeted at them then that needs looking at properly.

 

The actual real life offline abuse people are receiving is not acceptable, text messages and the like but especially antisemitic abuse and death threats. It's not justified because people are pissed off that MPs have acted contrary to what they want. And no amount of excusing them as lunatics or acting out of desperation is going to change that for me.

[Thomo123]

We all live in the real world. I'm not nipping into Narnia for the night when I log off here.

 

The Twitter stuff is by the by, though obviously when people get racist shit tweeted at them then that needs looking at properly.

 

The actual real life offline abuse people are receiving is not acceptable, text messages and the like but especially antisemitic abuse and death threats. It's not justified because people are pissed off that MPs have acted contrary to what they want. And no amount of excusing them as lunatics or acting out of desperation is going to change that for me.

 

Well its a lot easier to sit there and tell everybody how wrong it is without trying to understand what drives people to do these things, and maybe even try to do something about it. 

 

I think we can all agree that this shit is wrong, but how does that solve anything? The current climate of blame and counter blame just polarises opinion even more to the point we can't even find common ground. 

[Sugar Ape]

Well its a lot easier to sit there and tell everybody how wrong it is without trying to understand what drives people to do these things, and maybe even try to do something about it.

 

I think we can all agree that this shit is wrong, but how does that solve anything? The current climate of blame and counter blame just polarises opinion even more to the point we can't even find common ground.

I suspect we'd fundamentally disagree on what drives these people to do these things. I'm pretty sure you don't wake up one day and decide to be antisemitic because you've been given a rough deal by the government or because you think the PLP have let you down.

[kalasoma]

Corbyn’s critics are hellbent on destroying the party they claim to love

 

Gary Younge.

 

Those who failed to foresee the Tories winning a parliamentary majority, Corbyn winning the leadership or the Brexit defeat long ago predicted the outcome of the next election under Corbyn and declared it a spectacular and unprecedented disaster. Evidence for failure on this scale has been thin on the ground. There have been four byelections since Corbyn was elected; Labour retained all four seats. In three it upped its share of the vote by between 5.9% and 8.7%; in one its share fell by just 0.3%. In local elections the party did not soar but did not crash either, holding on to bellwether towns like Nuneaton, Stevenage, Southampton and Crawley and receiving a slightly higher share of the vote than the Tories.

 

This, for me, is what gets me the most. The "he won't win" followed by no explanation, or fuzzy logic, frustrates the life out of me. Just because the PLP, and certain factions in the media say he won't win and repeat it 1000 times, without a clear explanation, doesn't make it true. Wishful, magical thinking, yes. Truth? No. Because it's not based on any evidence. None, nada.

[Thomo123]

I suspect we'd fundamentally disagree on what drives these people to do these things. I'm pretty sure you don't wake up one day and decide to be antisemitic because you've been given a rough deal by the government or because you think the PLP have let you down.

 

 

I find that pretty patronising to be honest. Anti-semitism, Racism etc are all rooted in deeper things than party allegiance and we both know that. 

[Gnasher]

They are playing the I'm scared bullshit card. If they can't handle a couple of idiots on twitter they should fuck off and find another job.

[Sugar Ape]

I find that pretty patronising to be honest. Anti-semitism, Racism etc are all rooted in deeper things than party allegiance and we both know that.

Well yeah, that's what I said. And it's the reason I don't accept excuses like people being angry or disenfranchised for engaging in that type of behaviour or issuing death threats.

 

The person who directed them at Berger has been arrested apparently so we'll find out in due course what he had to say.

[Sugar Ape]

They are playing the I'm scared bullshit card. If they can't handle a couple of idiots on twitter they should fuck off and find another job.

And the ones who have a problem having their personal details being posted online and then getting bombarded with abusive texts or the shit directed at Berger? They should fuck off too?

[Thomo123]

Well yeah, that's what I said. And it's the reason I don't accept excuses like people being angry or disenfranchised for engaging in that type of behaviour or issuing death threats.

 

The person who directed them at Berger has been arrested apparently so we'll find out in due course what he had to say.

 

I wasn't offering excuses, but generally speaking its a lot easier to apportion blame than look at the deeper causes and work towards eliminating them....longer than a election cycle thats for sure. 

 

And you would struggle arresting everybody acting like wankers on twitter.

[Gnasher]

And the ones who have a problem having their personal details being posted online and then getting bombarded with abusive texts or the shit directed at Berger? They should fuck off too?

OK i'll give you an example. Can you remmember the torrent of abuse directed against labour mp Stella Creasy? There were reports her house was targeted. it was in all the papers and over the bbc news.

 

Corbyn (obviously) got roped in and activists blamed.

 

Here is the bbc admitting they got the story wrong, it was started by ONE post on fuckin Facebook

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/comp-reports/ecu/today03122015

[Sugar Ape]

OK i'll give you an example. Can you remmember the torrent of abuse directed against labour mp Stella Creasy? There were reports her house was targeted. it was in all the papers and over the bbc news.

 

Corbyn (obviously) got roped in and activists blamed.

 

Here is the bbc admitting they got the story wrong, it was started by ONE post on fuckin Facebook

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/comp-reports/ecu/today03122015

That's got fuck all to do with anything I've said unless you think everyone who has said they have had abuse is lying and manufacturing the claims, which considering they've arrested someone in the Berger case, is something I find unlikely.

 

I'm going to bed now but maybe try answering what I actually asked you without your usual response of posting a link to a Twitter post or newspaper article.

 

A simple yes or no will do.

[Gnasher]

That's got fuck all to do with anything I've said unless you think everyone who has said they have had abuse is lying and manufacturing the claims, which considering they've arrested someone in the Berger case, is something I find unlikely.

 

I'm going to bed now but maybe try answering what I actually asked you without your usual response of posting a link to a Twitter post or newspaper article.

 

A simple yes or no will do.

How can I comment on an individual case when I do not know the full facts? If she is receiving abuse then I obviously condem it.

 

The point I am making is i am not going to take for granted every thing they (the so called victim) as gospel until those facts are established.

 

Another example, the Labour mp who rushed out of that Corbyn news conference a few weeks ago after supposedly suffering anti semetic abuse. A room full of journalists, the man's voice on tape yet not one anti semetic word was found to come out of his mouth.

 

A lot of them are fucking at it.

[kalasoma]

John Prescott ‏@johnprescott  34m34 minutes ago

Labour has a 5 point lead over Tories in new Ipsos Mori poll. Imagine if the PLP & leadership were united though...

I seem to recall a poll either on Sunday or Monday where Conservatives were 8 points ahead, so I don't know what any of the polls are telling us?

Is Corbyn having an effect? How do the unions feel about him now that he's officially on the ballot?

[magicrat]

Whilst all this is happening some of the most revolting specimens of political excrement have been shoe-horned into government by the Tory hierarchy along with Murdoch . It;'s so fucking blatant that May has been given the job with strings in return for Leadsom being knocked on the head yet we have no opposition holding them  to account , The country is going to hell in fucking handcart and there is no-one at home in the Labour party. I honestly despair at what is going on in our country.    

[Yozzer]

The Ipsos Mori poll has two graphs to it, John Prescott leaving off the one that has the Tories leading by one point after it has filtered out intended voters. The same poll has Corbyn with a net -41% satisfaction of the general population, worse than Cameron who has -38%. Of Labour supporters, the poll has more people dissatisfied than satisfied with Corbyn. Not great.