Arsenal vs Liverpool - what formation/squad to go with?

[spider-neil]

It is the players who snap at heels on the pitch, not the manager.

 

 

But it's the manager that gives the players the platform to press the opposition. 3 midfielders can't press 5 midfielders, it's simply not possible.

[Stickman]

We know the midfield is not great or mobile enough, bad day at the office, hopefully Brendan bins the 3 at the back and goes back to 4 4 2.

I know it nothing to do with us but Chelsea who have a glut of great players lost to the Geordies and no one is writing them off....We lost to a pretty good Arsenal side not a great one but we aren't a great side ourselves....last few seasons we have been finishing around 7th or 8th yet now everyone is moaning because we ain't gone back to the top....I guess that's progress.

 

Yesterday was a reality check for us that hopefully we will bounce back with a win next week as those are the games that will determine if we are challenge for 4th....maybe next season games against Arsenal are for trying to challenge to win the league .

[Fi!]

....................Mignolet

Johnson - Toure/Sakho - Agger - Enrique

................Henderson - Lucas

 

Suarez ...........Gerrard................Coutinho

......................Sturridge

 

That has to be our strongest side right?

 

There's a place for Gerrard in this team but not as a Defensive Midfielder.

If you prefer 4-2-3-1 then yes. However personally I still wants to give the 4-4-2 diamond a shot

[mark1975]

There were a few worrying aspects yesterday. First of all, for a side with no cup distractions, we look worryingly heavy legged, maybe that's due to a lack of football, we're unable to gather momentum because the games aren't coming thick and fast enough. Whatever, the work we put in preseason to get us up to speed, seems to have had zero effect.

 

As for the game itself, I think reverting to 4 at the back showed that we're not in danger of caving in by doing so, and that should be something to think about in the longterm. Three at the back brings it's own issues, especially when the full backs aren't technically brilliant. For the record I thought Flanno did ok, given he was thrown in at the deep end. But the midfield has it's own issues, and putting two defensive minded players either side didn't help.

 

Lucas was poor, and I don't think it's wide of the mark to question his place. I think he's got a reprieve and pretty much walks into side because of the lack of competition. That's gone on for far too long, as has his indifferent form. I think when a player has one full good season in six and continues to divide opinion so heavily, there has to be questions raised and criticism isn't undue.

 

Henderson wasn't great either, but you know you get energy and tireless running with him. I'm just not sure if the combined output from him and Lucas is good enough. Perhaps it's time to give Joe Allen another go, and get Coutinho back in the side sharpish. What we do with our captain is a mystery. He's performed poorly for far too long.

 

Overall though, we've done really well, so a defeat against top of the table shouldn't dent our ambitions, we just need to make sure we cancel out the result at our place.

 

At the start of the season, our goal was Europe, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact we look more than capable of punching higher than that, we just need some fresh impitus in the side and we need to revert to four at the back and to do our best to find a better setup in the middle of the park, that should be the goal over the next two months and then perhaps we can look at things in the transfer window.

 

One last thing, I wouldn't be breaking the bank for our two loanees, Cissokho doesn't offer enough going forward and I don't think I've seen a less inspired or motivated player than Moses. Thanks but no-thanks.

[spider-neil]

There were a few worrying aspects yesterday. First of all, for a side with no cup distractions, we look worryingly heavy legged, maybe that's due to a lack of football, we're unable to gather momentum because the games aren't coming thick and fast enough. Whatever, the work we put in preseason to get us up to speed, seems to have had zero effect.

 

As for the game itself, I think reverting to 4 at the back showed that we're not in danger of caving in by doing so, and that should be something to think about in the longterm. Three at the back brings it's own issues, especially when the full backs aren't technically brilliant. For the record I thought Flanno did ok, given he was thrown in at the deep end. But the midfield has it's own issues, and putting two defensive minded players either side didn't help.

 

Lucas was poor, and I don't think it's wide of the mark to question his place. I think he's got a reprieve and pretty much walks into side because of the lack of competition. That's gone on for far too long, as has his indifferent form. I think when a player has one full good season in six and continues to divide opinion so heavily, there has to be questions raised and criticism isn't undue.

 

Henderson wasn't great either, but you know you get energy and tireless running with him. I'm just not sure if the combined output from him and Lucas is good enough. Perhaps it's time to give Joe Allen another go, and get Coutinho back in the side sharpish. What we do with our captain is a mystery. He's performed poorly for far too long.

 

Overall though, we've done really well, so a defeat against top of the table shouldn't dent our ambitions, we just need to make sure we cancel out the result at our place.

 

At the start of the season, our goal was Europe, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact we look more than capable of punching higher than that, we just need some fresh impitus in the side and we need to revert to four at the back and to do our best to find a better setup in the middle of the park, that should be the goal over the next two months and then perhaps we can look at things in the transfer window.

 

One last thing, I wouldn't be breaking the bank for our two loanees, Cissokho doesn't offer enough going forward and I don't think I've seen a less inspired or motivated player than Moses. Thanks but no-thanks.

 

MARK!!!! :)

Great post as always.

I will say though, you are only going to see the best of Moses when we put bodies behind the ball and play him on the counter attack. Play him too deep or too central and it blunts his effectiveness.

As for Cissokho, the less said the better, I'd rather see Agger or Sakho there.

[mark1975]

Hey Neil, good to see you again, I didn't know you were on here! Hope you're well :)

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

For me, there were absolutely no revelations last night. At all. None. We don't know anything we didn't already know. We have a good goalkeeper, some very good central defenders, a world class front two, and we're not good enough in the middle. Sometimes - perhaps even most of the time in this league - the world class front two will make up for those in the middle not being mobile enough, and paired together totally ineffectively, but against better teams they won't. We need two very high quality players in January - Fernando and Konoplyanka - and then strengthening again in the summer with fullbacks and striker backup. We knew that after we tonked WBA and we knew it when we lost to Southampton. 

[Guest San Don]

There were a few worrying aspects yesterday. First of all, for a side with no cup distractions, we look worryingly heavy legged, maybe that's due to a lack of football, we're unable to gather momentum because the games aren't coming thick and fast enough. Whatever, the work we put in preseason to get us up to speed, seems to have had zero effect.

 

As for the game itself, I think reverting to 4 at the back showed that we're not in danger of caving in by doing so, and that should be something to think about in the longterm. Three at the back brings it's own issues, especially when the full backs aren't technically brilliant. For the record I thought Flanno did ok, given he was thrown in at the deep end. But the midfield has it's own issues, and putting two defensive minded players either side didn't help.

 

Lucas was poor, and I don't think it's wide of the mark to question his place. I think he's got a reprieve and pretty much walks into side because of the lack of competition. That's gone on for far too long, as has his indifferent form. I think when a player has one full good season in six and continues to divide opinion so heavily, there has to be questions raised and criticism isn't undue.

 

Henderson wasn't great either, but you know you get energy and tireless running with him. I'm just not sure if the combined output from him and Lucas is good enough. Perhaps it's time to give Joe Allen another go, and get Coutinho back in the side sharpish. What we do with our captain is a mystery. He's performed poorly for far too long.

 

Overall though, we've done really well, so a defeat against top of the table shouldn't dent our ambitions, we just need to make sure we cancel out the result at our place.

 

At the start of the season, our goal was Europe, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact we look more than capable of punching higher than that, we just need some fresh impitus in the side and we need to revert to four at the back and to do our best to find a better setup in the middle of the park, that should be the goal over the next two months and then perhaps we can look at things in the transfer window.

 

One last thing, I wouldn't be breaking the bank for our two loanees, Cissokho doesn't offer enough going forward and I don't think I've seen a less inspired or motivated player than Moses. Thanks but no-thanks.

 

Some of you people wont be content until Gerrard is no longer in the team. I fail to see how dropping him is going to make the team better given our squad.

 

Sure Gerrard didnt have a good game yesterday (like most of the team) but to say his form has been 'poor for far too long' is just utter nonsense.

 

As for Joe Allen, hahahahahaha! This is a player who'd got more stick in his first season than lucas and you want to 'give him a go'?

[spider-neil]

Hey Neil, good to see you again, I didn't know you were on here! Hope you're well :)

 

I'm good. Hope to see you post here more often :)

[Guest San Don]

For me, there were absolutely no revelations last night. At all. None. We don't know anything we didn't already know. We have a good goalkeeper, some very good central defenders, a world class front two, and we're not good enough in the middle. Sometimes - perhaps even most of the time in this league - the world class front two will make up for those in the middle not being mobile enough, and paired together totally ineffectively, but against better teams they won't. We need two very high quality players in January - Fernando and Konoplyanka - and then strengthening again in the summer with fullbacks and striker backup. We knew that after we tonked WBA and we knew it when we lost to Southampton. 

 

This is spot on. Dont know whether we'd be able to buy the two players you mention and step up again in summer though.

[mark1975]

I don't mean drop him, but his role at the very least needs questioning. I don't think addressing the issue warrants accusations of a lack of respect, he's been poor in that position for a long time. As for Lucas, maybe with the right partner we'll see the best of him. No one's saying drop Gerrard for Allen, but the money was invested in the lad so he deserves another chance, given our midfield is by no means pulling up trees. Henderson had a poor first season but a bit of indulgence did him the World of good.

 

Personally I think we'll need to reinvest, but for the time being we can only use what we've got, and if it isn't working then it's time to relook and reassess.

 

If we revert to 4 at the back, there's room for all of them, I certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to shoehorn Moses into the side.

[spider-neil]

Some of you people wont be content until Gerrard is no longer in the team. I fail to see how dropping him is going to make the team better given our squad.

 

Sure Gerrard didnt have a good game yesterday (like most of the team) but to say his form has been 'poor for far too long' is just utter nonsense.

 

As for Joe Allen, hahahahahaha! This is a player who'd got more stick in his first season than lucas and you want to 'give him a go'?

 

I don't see a problem with subbing Gerrard (or Lucas) when the game has obviously passed him by. As for Allen, our plan should have been about keeping the ball if we were unable to press the ball. Allen started his Liverpool career superbly and then his dislocated shoulder got worse as the season wore on, I don't have a problem with Allen being given a run is for no other reason than to give Gerrard or Lucas a rest when they tire late in games.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

This is spot on. Dont know whether we'd be able to buy the two players you mention and step up again in summer though.

 

Yeah, it's an issue. We just need to keep going. I was a bit disappointed at the result last night, as any fan should be, but we've got to be realistic here; we're still building a competitive side. There will be speed bumps along the way, there will be next season too. We aren't good enough to win the league, and a win yesterday would have put us back to the top of the pile. We're still joint second on points, and a draw today between Spurs and Everton will mean we go into the home game against Fulham looking to close the gap when Arsenal play United. 

 

Where we are now is actually really good. We're probably ahead of schedule, and if we can sort this formation out and add some more folk to the midfield, we're going to be really pushing for that top four come the end of the season. If we do that, this season will be an unqualified success. Not because fourth is some amazing achievement, but because it means it opens up the market so we can buy players to push us on again. We've finished outside the top five for the last four seasons, 8th a couple of times, not grabbing top spot going into November isn't a tragedy for us, not unless you're stuck in 2009. 

[Jairzinho]

The midfield could be strengthened considerably before January by playing a formation that allows us to have some possession and stop the odd counter attack, by playing people in positions where they'd be most effective, and by replacing players during a game that are quite clearly fucking knackered. There is plenty Rodgers could, and should, be doing now.

[Pan77]

....................Mignolet

Johnson - Toure/Sakho - Agger - Enrique

................Henderson - Lucas

 

Suarez ...........Gerrard................Coutinho

......................Sturridge

 

That has to be our strongest side right?

 

There's a place for Gerrard in this team but not as a Defensive Midfielder.

For me that midfield is woeful and we'd get battered against anyone decent. We'd end up with 2 midfielders against 5 in some games! I don't think Gerrard and Coutinho can play in the same team in that formation.

 

I'd rather us play 4312 with 3 midfielders (Lucas, Allen, Henderson) then Gerrard or Coutinho behind Sturridge and Suarez.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yeah, he doesn't have the players to leave them exposed. The likes of Lucas just aren't mobile enough, or positionally good enough to make up for it. His positioning yesterday was awful, as is Rodgers' choice of central midfield partnership. Still, even in a three you need to be mobile, so I agree it can be improved now but also think he needs upgrading in January. Gerrard needs moving, because he doesn't have the positional discipline either. I say it every time, I think he's the best player we've ever had, but a deep midfielder he aint. I'd sooner use him sparingly in an attacking role, because this isn't working. The players nor the system. 

[Guest San Don]

I don't see a problem with subbing Gerrard (or Lucas) when the game has obviously passed him by. As for Allen, our plan should have been about keeping the ball if we were unable to press the ball. Allen started his Liverpool career superbly and then his dislocated shoulder got worse as the season wore on, I don't have a problem with Allen being given a run is for no other reason than to give Gerrard or Lucas a rest when they tire late in games.

 

Im amazed you say allen started superbly. You must be one of the few because everyone I've come across said he wasnt a 15 million player well before his shoulder injury.

 

Sorry, we'll have to disagree about Gerrard. The lad may not be a box to box player he once was (how much of that is down to the manager telling him how and where he wants him to play?) but he's still too influential to sub off. If a game is passing him by its a slam dunk its passing by most of the others in the team.

 

Anyway, the point is we were laboured yesterday as a team. We need to address that. Fulham is the next game which shouldnt cause us problems (hopefully!) but the game at the shite most certainly is one we cannot afford to lose.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

He started very well, San Don. He won MotM in his first handful of games. He had people on here saying, '15m looks like a bargain'. I don't think he's the answer here, though. I'm a massive fan of his, but putting him into this formation won't do much. He needs to play in a three. 

[spider-neil]

With regards to our midfielders I think Gerrard is best higher up the pitch with less defensive duties, I think Henderson is at his best higher up the pitch where his pressing can disrupt the oppositions ability to bring the ball forwards and Lucas is at his best when he has less ground to cover to make interceptions.

 

Lucas had too much ground to cover yesterday as Cissokho couldn't be trusted to shield his side of the pitch. There was too much space around Gerrard to give anything to the game defensively or offensively and there were too many Arsenal bodies in midfield for Henderson to chase down the ball.

 

Basically moving forwards we need Johnson and Enrique fit asap and then we need to dip into the market to buy fullback competition for both players because their replacements frankly aren't good enough.

 

As for midfield we need to drop a centre back and add an extra body to midfield because we are being overrun any time we face a half decent midfield. As for dipping into the transfer market for another central midfielder unless that CM Alonso I wouldn't bother, no team is going to let us buy a top class CM mid season. I thought Allen was superb when he first joined and injury hampered him rather than a lack of quality.

[Jairzinho]

His positioning yesterday could have been immaculate and we'd still have been run straight through. He was playing against five attacking central midfielders. Henderson was pressing high up the pitch (fine until they pass the ball around him), and Gerrard was doing absolutely fuck all. All three of them were predictably terrible, setup in a way that ensured they would be.

 

Agree on Gerrard. He should be playing as a number 10 in a 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation, or not at all. I don't think Rodgers has got the stones to drop him though.

 

I don't particularly rate Allen, as you well know, but I really think he deserves a game.

 

Even if our main plan at the moment is to get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge at the expense of controlling any game there are far more effective formations and ways of playing than whatever the fuck we're trying now.

 

Can't agree with you that we're ahead of schedule (think you said as much in a previous post), and if we are then we're aiming far too low. Our league position and points total flatters us. We've had a very easy start to the season in terms of who we've played, and have gained quite a few points that we've probably not deserved. Now I'm fine with that, I'd happily win every game 1-0 having been battered for the entire match, unfortunately it simply isn't sustainable over the course of a season.

 

I'm far less optimistic now than I was at the end of last season.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I agree it flatters us, that's why I think we're ahead of Schedule. We're in the race for the title at the moment, and we're not good enough to be. That's what I mean by being ahead of schedule. I also agree with your last sentence. I think we have the players to improve on how we were playing in the last six months, but this three man defensive wall needs jibbing off. Firstly, it hasn't improved our defence. Actually, we've not kept a clean sheet since switching to it. Second, we don't need that many defenders on the pitch. We need more midfielders. I know a few love this formation, but it's not working. Either because we don't have the players to play it, or because it's a throw-back from another era. 

 

Still, we need to keep going forward. We're doing well in the league. I'd have snatched your hand off to be level with Chelsea, and above of City, Utd, Everton and Spurs. We've also got the potential to play much, much better than this. I'm hoping Rodgers is going to have the bottle to change the formation to help our midfield out. The engine room doesn't have enough grunt for my liking, but choking it of air and fuel just makes the problem worse.

 

All in all, I'm still positive. I think we can get into that top four, but we need to get control of the football, do what the manager loves, and pass it well, keep hold of it well, and connect the midfield with the attack. 

[spider-neil]

His positioning yesterday could have been immaculate and we'd still have been run straight through. He was playing against five attacking central midfielders. Henderson was pressing high up the pitch (fine until they pass the ball around him), and Gerrard was doing absolutely fuck all. All three of them were predictably terrible, setup in a way that ensured they would be.

 

Agree on Gerrard. He should be playing as a number 10 in a 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation, or not at all. I don't think Rodgers has got the stones to drop him though.

 

I don't particularly rate Allen, as you well know, but I really think he deserves a game.

 

Even if our main plan at the moment is to get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge at the expense of controlling any game there are far more effective formations and ways of playing than whatever the fuck we're trying now.

 

Can't agree with you that we're ahead of schedule (think you said as much in a previous post), and if we are then we're aiming far too low. Our league position and points total flatters us. We've had a very easy start to the season in terms of who we've played, and have gained quite a few points that we've probably not deserved. Now I'm fine with that, I'd happily win every game 1-0 having been battered for the entire match, unfortunately it simply isn't sustainable over the course of a season.

 

I'm far less optimistic now than I was at the end of last season.

I definitely didn't say we are ahead of schedule.

 

Basically we have top class strikers and a sea of really good centre backs so I can understand why Brendan was to accommodate as many of them as he can but we are totally losing the midfield battle and it is leaving massive gaps (because our defence wont push up) making the job of pressing the opposition nigh on impossible unless they too drop deep (which Arsenal were never going to do).

 

Basically I think we have the personnel to control games more than we are but that means changing the system formation and disappointing SOMEONE. Be it a centre back or an attacker so we can grab back some control of the midfield.

We were horribly naïve and got punished. We're better than we showed last night. 

[lamai]

We have to get top 4 this season and if that means spending in Janaury then we need to do it. We have the advantage over other teams this season in that we don't have european football or league cup now. If we qualify for the euro cup next season this it is going to be harder again to qualify. We have a chance to get back in the top 4 this season I hope we do not blow it.

[Jairzinho]

I definitely didn't say we are ahead of schedule.

 

Basically we have top class strikers and a sea of really good centre backs so I can understand why Brendan was to accommodate as many of them as he can but we are totally losing the midfield battle and it is leaving massive gaps (because our defence wont push up) making the job of pressing the opposition nigh on impossible unless they too drop deep (which Arsenal were never going to do).

 

Basically I think we have the personnel to control games more than we are but that means changing the system formation and disappointing SOMEONE. Be it a centre back or an attacker so we can grab back some control of the midfield.

We were horribly naïve and got punished. We're better than we showed last night. 

 

Sorry, mate. I was replying to Numero.

 

I don't give a fuck about disappointing someone really. Ditch a centre back, and do it now.

[mark1975]

For the good of the team it's the right mentality to have, otherwise we're never going to get anywhere. Revert to 4 at the back, put Gerrard in behind the front two, with Coutinho in the floating role on the left, much the same as the role Gerrard played on the right, several years ago.

 

Toure has looked a bit jaded in the last few games, so maybe it's time to give him a rest, though I do have concerns that Skrtel and Sakho are too similar in style, I'd give it a go for now:

 

-----------------Mignolet------------------

Johnson--KT/MS----Sakho--Enrique-

------------LL/JA---Henderson----------

-----------------Gerrard-------------------

----Suarez---Sturridge---Coutinho---