Gibraltar

[Josef Svejk]

The people of Gibraltar are British and want to remain with the UK. We've spent billions on its infrastructure. If we were to leave we should move the Brits to the UK and then level the entire place. Let Spain have the rock, and leave nothing else of value.

 

The people who live there have the right to self determination and the last time they voted I think it was 98% who wanted to remain British.

 

Hypothetical scenario:

 

The government of India spots some geo-political advantage in occupying Leicester. So, it sets about populating the city by military means, expelling the native population as necessary.

 

Needless to say, this doesn't go down very well with the English population more generally, a population which can't quite understand how India could "legitimately" claim such a distant territory under such morally questionable circumstances.

 

But, fear not, India offers an argument for such legitimacy, an argument which no democrat worthy of the name could possibly reject. India has a democratic mandate in Leicester! The vast majority of the population of Leicester feels Indian, wishes to remain part of India... and even claims to have turned the wasteland that was Leicester into some magnificent monument to Indian civilization.

[Josef Svejk]

Spain aren't really arsed about this reef they are making in Gibraltar waters. If they want to oppose it they could do so legally, but I don't think they've got a case.

 

It's an attempt by a crooked right wing government to beat the nationalist drum to divert attention from themselves.

 

I agree with this, however.

[Sugar Ape]

 

I do' date=' as it happens. I'm opposed to imperialism - and much of its historical legacy - whether that be British, Spanish, or any other kind.

 

That doesn't mean, however, that I think the legacy is always worth fighting over.[/quote']

 

I think everyone is against imperialism. But what do you do with somewhere like Gibraltar which has been a British territory for hundreds of years and the people living there want it to remain that way?

 

I mean, it was under Islamic rule for hundreds of years under the Umayyad Caliphate. I don't agree with some people's point or view that is should go ' back ' to Spain just because it borders their territory.

 

Edit: Re your point about Leicester I agree that wouldn't be allowed to happen, and shouldn't. But for the places like the Falklands, Girbaltar and Spanish overseas territories like Ceuta and Melilla where this has already happened then I think the only reasonable approach is to allow the people to determine their future.

[Josef Svejk]

I think everyone is against imperialism. But what do you do with somewhere like Gibraltar which has been a British territory for hundreds of years and the people living there want it to remain that way?

 

I mean, it was under Islamic rule for hundreds of years under the Umayyad Caliphate. I don't agree with some people's point or view that is should go ' back ' to Spain just because it borders their territory.

 

Well, as in most "post-imperial" conflict situations, you try to come to a mature resolution which recognises both current demographics and political history. Unfortunately, Britain only acknowledges the former while Spain only acknowledges the latter. Hence, a deadlock that is politically advantageous to the Spanish government, above all, at the moment - though of conceivable benefit to the British government, too.

[Josef Svejk]

Edit: Re your point about Leicester I agree that wouldn't be allowed to happen, and shouldn't. But for the places like the Falklands, Girbaltar and Spanish overseas territories like Ceuta and Melilla where this has already happened then I think the only reasonable approach is to allow the people to determine their future.

 

So, if you wait long enough, demographics are absolute?

 

Unless, of course, you don't like the demographics any more, in which case a democratic mandate no longer determines the outcome. (I'm thinking of likely future problems in Northern Ireland here.)

[Sugar Ape]

 

So' date=' if you wait long enough, demographics are absolute?

 

Unless, of course, you don't like the demographics any more, in which case a democratic mandate no longer determines the outcome. (I'm thinking of likely future problems in Northern Ireland here.)[/quote']

 

Well, there is never going to be an outcome that pleases everybody in a situation like this, but I believe that the people their should determine their own outcome, yes.

 

It's obviously easier for that to happen when it's 99% ( I just checked Wikipedia and it said 99% of he population voted to stay British in 2002 ) who are voting for one option. It's much harder in Northern Ireland as I'd imagine the vote would be split a lot more.

 

We are still doing some nasty shit though like Diego Garcia which is appalling really.

[mattyq]

Hypothetical scenario:

 

The government of India spots some geo-political advantage in occupying Leicester. So, it sets about populating the city by military means, expelling the native population as necessary.

 

Needless to say, this doesn't go down very well with the English population more generally, a population which can't quite understand how India could "legitimately" claim such a distant territory under such morally questionable circumstances.

 

But, fear not, India offers an argument for such legitimacy, an argument which no democrat worthy of the name could possibly reject. India has a democratic mandate in Leicester! The vast majority of the population of Leicester feels Indian, wishes to remain part of India... and even claims to have turned the wasteland that was Leicester into some magnificent monument to Indian civilization.

 

Your scenario doesn't make any sense.

A more apposite one would be if Spain won the Isle of White in a war 300 years ago and the locals all wanted to remain Spanish.

I wouldn't really give a shit about this - if they want to remain Spanish then fair enough. The same with N Ireland

I don't really see how you can argue against the wishes of the population...in fact it would be akin to tyranny to do so

What are your views on Kaliningrad?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

They can have Cornwall if they want it. Actually, fuck that, I don't want Chorizo in a pasty. Let 'em have the Scilly Isles.

[Josef Svejk]

Your scenario doesn't make any sense.

A more apposite one would be if Spain won the Isle of White in a war 300 years ago and the locals all wanted to remain Spanish.

I wouldn't really give a shit about this - if they want to remain Spanish then fair enough. The same with N Ireland

I don't really see how you can argue against the wishes of the population...in fact it would be akin to tyranny to do so

What are your views on Kaliningrad?

 

Kaliningrad? Russian imperial outpost, clearly. But not one that anyone else is staking a claim to, so far as I'm aware.

 

As for the scenario not making sense... because we're talking about a conquered island rather than a forcibly settled city?

 

Fine, then adjust the scenario accordingly. But you would need to acknowledge that the "locals" in question pre- and post-conquest are typically not the same. In other words, demography without reference to political history is likely to distort our picture of what is going on (or went on).

 

Every imperialist turns into a democrat after the event. So long as demographics favour them, at least.

 

Incidentally, I never suggested a tyrannical solution. Read my previous posts.

 

As for whether you care about any of this, I can't possibly comment...

[mattyq]

Well Gib isn't an island to start with and i expect the Poles would like Kaliningrad although i believe it's traditionally East Prussia so maybe the Germans would like it back

I get your point about the locals being booted out, murdered, pillaged and generally shat upon from a great height in 1704 and replaced by a new population.

Interestingly, the new arrivals included a lot of Jews which really pissed off the Spanish so you could add antisemitism to all of this.

I just think your anti imperialist answer is too simplistic and misses a lot of other factors and nuances including Spain's Fascist recent past; the fact that Spain has similar outposts in Morocco; applying today's conventions and laws to events that occurred over 300 years ago etc etc.

It's a complex issue and, in my view, is best solved by the wishes of the local population

[VladimirIlyich]

The people who live there have the right to self determination and the last time they voted I think it was 98% who wanted to remain British.

 

Spain aren't really arsed about this reef they are making in Gibraltar waters. If they want to oppose it they could do so legally' date=' but I don't think they've got a case.

 

It's an attempt by a crooked right wing government to beat the nationalist drum to divert attention from themselves.[/quote']

 

Which one?

[Sugar Ape]

 

Which one?

 

I know you're being facetious, and no one dislikes our government more than me, but they haven't done much wrong in this instance.

[Bjornebye]

Well, there is never going to be an outcome that pleases everybody in a situation like this, but I believe that the people their should determine their own outcome, yes.

 

It's obviously easier for that to happen when it's 99% ( I just checked Wikipedia and it said 99% of he population voted to stay British in 2002 ) who are voting for one option. It's much harder in Northern Ireland as I'd imagine the vote would be split a lot more.

 

We are still doing some nasty shit though like Diego Garcia which is appalling really.

 

For a lot of people in the navy when I was in, diego garcia was a dream draft. 6 months in the middle of the pacific. A girl i knew got drafted out there and actually hated it. miserable bitch.

 

fuck gibraltar. both sets of governments are cunts.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Those fucking Galician trawlers sucked the cod out of the Grand Banks off Newfoundland so the Spanish can get to fuck about fishing.

[Josef Svejk]

Well Gib isn't an island to start with and i expect the Poles would like Kaliningrad although i believe it's traditionally East Prussia so maybe the Germans would like it back

I get your point about the locals being booted out, murdered, pillaged and generally shat upon from a great height in 1704 and replaced by a new population.

Interestingly, the new arrivals included a lot of Jews which really pissed off the Spanish so you could add antisemitism to all of this.

I just think your anti imperialist answer is too simplistic and misses a lot of other factors and nuances including Spain's Fascist recent past; the fact that Spain has similar outposts in Morocco; applying today's conventions and laws to events that occurred over 300 years ago etc etc.

It's a complex issue and, in my view, is best solved by the wishes of the local population

 

You gave the (hypothetical) example of an island, not me.

 

I live in Poland and don't believe I've ever heard a single Pole laying claim to Kaliningrad. Though, no doubt, a few odd-balls do so. There is a fringe party in Germany that gets excited about such matters, but it's very much on the fringe.

 

It is - in some degree - a complex matter, of course, but the claim of complexity is often rhetorical.

[VladimirIlyich]

 

I know you're being facetious' date=' and no one dislikes our government more than me, but they haven't done much wrong in this instance.[/quote']

 

Its just when you write about right wing governments diverting attention away from serious problems at home,the UK is as bad as any.

[Sugar Ape]

Maybe, but in this case and the Argies moaning about the Falklands recently they haven't done anything wrong and have been quite restrained in their response.

[VladimirIlyich]

Maybe' date=' but in this case and the Argies moaning about the Falklands recently they haven't done anything wrong and have been quite restrained in their response.[/quote']

 

Im wasnt just referring to the Falklands. Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded by a right wing UK government too.

[mattyq]

You gave the (hypothetical) example of an island, not me.

 

I live in Poland and don't believe I've ever heard a single Pole laying claim to Kaliningrad. Though, no doubt, a few odd-balls do so. There is a fringe party in Germany that gets excited about such matters, but it's very much on the fringe.

 

It is - in some degree - a complex matter, of course, but the claim of complexity is often rhetorical.

 

Fair enough..i was just using Kaliningrad to illustrate a point

Human history is full of mass migrations, wars of conquest and displaced populations. Don't think many people would argue that invading a country now and booting out the local population is wrong and morally reprehensible

Gib has been a colony for over 300 years...that's older than the US.

Don't really see what rights Spain has to it other than proximity and the fact that it used to be part of Spain

Dublin used to be part of the UK and is in close proximity but there's not many who would argue that it should revert to the UK

What about the Channel Islands? Close proximity to France and used to part of the Duchy of Normandy but are the French bothered?

[Sugar Ape]

 

Im wasnt just referring to the Falklands. Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded by a right wing UK government too.

 

That's a completely different beast, for me. It doesn't have much relevance to this situation in my opinion. I don't think anyone would argue we invaded them to deflect attention from the government. If anything it focused attention on them.

[Josef Svejk]

Fair enough..i was just using Kaliningrad to illustrate a point

Human history is full of mass migrations, wars of conquest and displaced populations. Don't think many people would argue that invading a country now and booting out the local population is wrong and morally reprehensible

Gib has been a colony for over 300 years...that's older than the US.

Don't really see what rights Spain has to it other than proximity and the fact that it used to be part of Spain

Dublin used to be part of the UK and is in close proximity but there's not many who would argue that it should revert to the UK

What about the Channel Islands? Close proximity to France and used to part of the Duchy of Normandy but are the French bothered?

 

I see. You've now added (a) a claim about longevity to (b) your original claim about demographics. Meanwhile, you reject © a claim about proximity.

 

So, if an imperial power conquers a territory © anywhere on the planet, (a) holds onto it for long enough, and (b) forcibly (re)populates it in the desired fashion, then said territory becomes a legitimate possession? Yes?

 

I think you're ignoring what I take to be a crucial factor: the very fact of conquest and its ethico-political implications.

[dennis tooth]

Cameron offers military aid to Spain

14-08-13

 

DAVID Cameron has pledged military support to help Spain invade Gibraltar.

 

The Prime Minister has offered helicopters, landing craft and a division of Royal Marines to help spark a conflict a bit like the Falklands War.

 

Cameron said: “It is vital that Spain regains its national honour by invading Gibraltar, proving that they’re not a bunch of cowardly paella-munching bastards, which is what everyone is saying.

 

“Given the many glaring weaknesses in our defences, I cannot think why Spain would not give it a go. Unless, as it has been suggested, Spain is gay.

 

“Naturally the last thing we want is for ‘Operation Falklands 2’ to turn into a re-run of the Falklands, but if a war happens to distract everyone from the economy and makes me look like an iconic leader, so be it.

 

“And if they make a film about it afterwards with me played by Pierce Brosnan or a slimmed-down Sean Bean, well that is something I will just have to live with.”

 

An aircraft carrier full of TV journalists in flak jackets has been put on standby, with emergency supplies of Union Jack bunting being flown in from China.

 

Office worker Donna Sheridan said: “Say what you like about Mrs T, the Falklands were great for national pride and gritty post-watershed TV drama.

 

“Plus there was a big party afterwards with sausage rolls.”

 

A UN spokesman said: “Christ, not the Brits and their bloody islands again.”

[Strontium]

They can have Cornwall if they want it. Actually, fuck that, I don't want Chorizo in a pasty. Let 'em have the Scilly Isles.

 

 

I read today that the unemployment rate in the Scilly Isles is 3. As in, 3 people.

 

This artificial reef in Gibraltar is supposed to stop the Spanish illegally drag fishing in protected waters. So it's tough shit as far as I can see.

 

The devil in me wants us to retaliate by recognising Basque sovereignty over Euskal Herria. That would be proper IRL trolling.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I read today that the unemployment rate in the Scilly Isles is 3. As in, 3 people.

 

This artificial reef in Gibraltar is supposed to stop the Spanish illegally drag fishing in protected waters. So it's tough shit as far as I can see.

 

The devil in me wants us to retaliate by recognising Basque sovereignty over Euskal Herria. That would be proper IRL trolling.

 

Some politicos just want to watch the world burn.

[stringvest]

I have been to Gibraltar, and I can vouch for the fact that it is a fucking shithole. Like a shit army town with nasty tourist tat shops and sun. The British charge in there and make these places shit. See also The Falklands, Africa and the Eurovision Song Contest.