America about to run out of cash

[Horus]

Sorry, but I just don't and will never believe it, I think the whole thing is designed to have people arguing over left and right, republican and democrat, conservative and labour, (it's probably no coincidence that both parties use red and blue colours.) etc, when the real problem is the actual way the whole thing is set up. Democrats as much as republicans are part of the problem. Ask yourself why things have never truly got better no matter who's been in power over the course of history. It's because governments like the ones we have now and have had since ancient times are created to fuck us, it's a sham.

 

You can believe what you want, however, the facts will always remain the same. The last Democrat in office was Clinton, and he turned deficit into surplus with democratic policies.

 

Bush came after and gave away the surplus in the guise of tax breaks for the rich, and before 9/11 had even happened, the surplus had disappeared. He involved the states in wars that he didn't even put on the books and pay for, he also introduced a massive spending bill on medicare, that again, wasn't paid for.

 

What you see now, are the effects of 10 years of Republican.

 

So like I said, believe what you wish, but the facts don't change. The democrats are pussies and cave into the right far too easily. Maybe if they stood up to the bullying a little sooner, they could have done more, but this crisis is nothing too do with the democrats and progressives.

[clangers]

You can believe what you want, however, the facts will always remain the same. The last Democrat in office was Clinton, and he turned deficit into surplus with democratic policies.

 

Bush came after and gave away the surplus in the guise of tax breaks for the rich, and before 9/11 had even happened, the surplus had disappeared. He involved the states in wars that he didn't even put on the books and pay for, he also introduced a massive spending bill on medicare, that again, wasn't paid for.

 

What you see now, are the effects of 10 years of Republican.

 

So like I said, believe what you wish, but the facts don't change. The democrats are pussies and cave into the right far too easily. Maybe if they stood up to the bullying a little sooner, they could have done more, but this crisis is nothing too do with the democrats and progressives.

 

I'm not defending the Republicans at all but it's also worth remembering the role the Clinton administration has played in the current mess. Clinton removed the firewall between commercial and investment banking that played a huge part in the financial crash. He also introduced legislation to effectively force lenders to give loans to individuals irrespective of status, though Bush took this much, much further.

[Horus]

I'm not defending the Republicans at all but it's also worth remembering the role the Clinton administration has played in the current mess. Clinton removed the firewall between commercial and investment banking that played a huge part in the financial crash. He also introduced legislation to effectively force lenders to give loans to individuals irrespective of status, though Bush took this much, much further.

 

I agree with your point wholeheartedly. But this deficit default crisis is nothing to do with democrats. We can get in to the ins and outs of it all if you wish. Just look at democrat/obamas plans to protect the country from happening again - the right has prevented appointment to financial protection agencies. The left wants to correct the mistakes, the right wants to fuck Obama and the left over.

 

 

If you look at what clinton left and what Bush left then there is a comparison to be made between right and left. Even now, with a proper jobs plan to improve infrastructure, rather than a spending cutting program, the deficit is not a problem.

[Red Phoenix]

You can believe what you want, however, the facts will always remain the same. The last Democrat in office was Clinton, and he turned deficit into surplus with democratic policies.

 

Bush came after and gave away the surplus in the guise of tax breaks for the rich, and before 9/11 had even happened, the surplus had disappeared. He involved the states in wars that he didn't even put on the books and pay for, he also introduced a massive spending bill on medicare, that again, wasn't paid for.

 

What you see now, are the effects of 10 years of Republican.

 

Can see what you're trying to say but things just don't really change with either party. Democrats might make figures look good but things don't really change for the better, and if they do the other side just comes in and messes everything up. It's the way it's set up that's the problem, and the people that are able to influence whoever's in power.

 

And Obama was always and will always be like Blair in the way that all he offered was false hope. Even if he was genuine the system he works in would never allow him to truly change things, and that's not all the fault of republicans, it's the fault of the senate, republicans, democrats, corporations, the military industrial complex, the media, and banks.

[Red Phoenix]

And us, as people. We shouldn't allow it to happen.

[Einch]

That's not quite right. Clinton was business friendly and he inherited a deficit, but left a surplus. It really is as simple as high employment, realistic taxes on citizens and especially businesses.

 

Some of the big companies in America, like GE for example, may pay about 4-6 billion in taxes, but because of rebates, loopholes, and other stuff, they end up getting nearly 10 billion back from the government.

 

All the while, these companies are raking in record profits and moving jobs abroad.

 

The American debt is in no way a problem, they are not in danger of going bankrupt, and need to spend in order to dig themselves out of a recession. If the tea baggers force the country into default, then the money that everyone pays in charges and stuff will fly through the roof anyway, making this a completely futile exercise.

 

I think Obama has brought this on himself by his failure to stand up to any of the rights previous bullshit over budgets and taxes. He's caved on pretty much everything, and is actually governing from the right of all of his party. He looked like he could be the game-changing president for America, but he's just as bad as the rest of them.

 

Bernie Sanders or Dennis Kucinich need to primary Obama to get some progressive ideas on the table.

 

If Obama wasn't such a pussy he'd use the 14th amendment to just raise the debt ceiling, but who knows what he'll actually do.

 

I agree with what you have written but what does this have to do with my comments? Why does the Federal reserve charge the US interest on its own currency? Why does the US govt, via taxation, have to pay the Fed' interest and not just the principal?

[Beantown Red]

I agree with what you have written but what does this have to do with my comments? Why does the Federal reserve charge the US interest on its own currency? Why does the US govt, via taxation, have to pay the Fed' interest and not just the principal?

 

Not sure if they charge interest? But they return any profit they make to the treasury anyway.

 

example

 

Wall Street firms aren't the only banks that had a banner year. The Federal Reserve made record profits in 2009, as its unconventional efforts to prop up the economy created a windfall for the government.

 

The Fed will return about $45 billion to the U.S. Treasury for 2009, according to calculations by The Washington Post based on public documents. That reflects the highest earnings in the 96-year history of the central bank. The Fed, unlike most government agencies, funds itself from its own operations and returns its profits to the Treasury.

[Stu Monty]

You can believe what you want, however, the facts will always remain the same. The last Democrat in office was Clinton, and he turned deficit into surplus with democratic policies.

 

Bush came after and gave away the surplus in the guise of tax breaks for the rich, and before 9/11 had even happened, the surplus had disappeared. He involved the states in wars that he didn't even put on the books and pay for, he also introduced a massive spending bill on medicare, that again, wasn't paid for.

 

What you see now, are the effects of 10 years of Republican.

 

So like I said, believe what you wish, but the facts don't change. The democrats are pussies and cave into the right far too easily. Maybe if they stood up to the bullying a little sooner, they could have done more, but this crisis is nothing too do with the democrats and progressives.

 

 

Clinton de-regulated the financial industries, well before Bush did, as far as I am aware. The financial industries were the main reason why global capitalism failed, and is being bailed out by the socialisation of their debts.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Stu Monty

[Section_31]

Cracking little article.

 

30 Years Ago Today: The Day the Middle Class Died

By Michael Moore

 

From time to time, someone under 30 will ask me, "When did this all begin, America's downward slide?" They say they've heard of a time when working people could raise a family and send the kids to college on just one parent's income (and that college in states like California and New York was almost free). That anyone who wanted a decent paying job could get one. That people only worked five days a week, eight hours a day, got the whole weekend off and had a paid vacation every summer. That many jobs were union jobs, from baggers at the grocery store to the guy painting your house, and this meant that no matter how "lowly" your job was you had guarantees of a pension, occasional raises, health insurance and someone to stick up for you if you were unfairly treated.

 

Young people have heard of this mythical time -- but it was no myth, it was real. And when they ask, "When did this all end?", I say, "It ended on this day: August 5th, 1981."

 

Beginning on this date, 30 years ago, Big Business and the Right Wing decided to "go for it" -- to see if they could actually destroy the middle class so that they could become richer themselves.

 

And they've succeeded.

 

On August 5, 1981, President Ronald Reagan fired every member of the air traffic controllers union (PATCO) who'd defied his order to return to work and declared their union illegal. They had been on strike for just two days.

 

It was a bold and brash move. No one had ever tried it. What made it even bolder was that PATCO was one of only two unions that had endorsed Reagan for president! It sent a shock wave through workers across the country. If he would do this to the people who were with him, what would he do to us?

 

Reagan had been backed by Wall Street in his run for the White House and they, along with right-wing Christians, wanted to restructure America and turn back the tide that President Franklin D. Roosevelt started -- a tide that was intended to make life better for the average working person. The rich hated paying better wages and providing benefits. They hated paying taxes even more. And they despised unions. The right-wing Christians hated anything that sounded like socialism or holding out a helping hand to minorities or women.

 

Reagan promised to end all that. So when the air traffic controllers went on strike, he seized the moment. In getting rid of every single last one of them and outlawing their union, he sent a clear and strong message: The days of everyone having a comfortable middle class life were over. America, from now on, would be run this way:

 

* The super-rich will make more, much much more, and the rest of you will scramble for the crumbs that are left.

 

* Everyone must work! Mom, Dad, the teenagers in the house! Dad, you work a second job! Kids, here's your latch-key! Your parents might be home in time to put you to bed.

 

* 50 million of you must go without health insurance! And health insurance companies: you go ahead and decide who you want to help -- or not.

 

* Unions are evil! You will not belong to a union! You do not need an advocate! Shut up and get back to work! No, you can't leave now, we're not done. Your kids can make their own dinner.

 

* You want to go to college? No problem -- just sign here and be in hock to a bank for the next 20 years!

 

* What's "a raise"? Get back to work and shut up!

 

And so it went. But Reagan could not have pulled this off by himself in 1981. He had some big help:

 

The AFL-CIO.

 

The biggest organization of unions in America told its members to cross the picket lines of the air traffic controllers and go to work. And that's just what these union members did. Union pilots, flight attendants, delivery truck drivers, baggage handlers -- they all crossed the line and helped to break the strike. And union members of all stripes crossed the picket lines and continued to fly.

 

Reagan and Wall Street could not believe their eyes! Hundreds of thousands of working people and union members endorsing the firing of fellow union members. It was Christmas in August for Corporate America.

 

And that was the beginning of the end. Reagan and the Republicans knew they could get away with anything -- and they did. They slashed taxes on the rich. They made it harder for you to start a union at your workplace. They eliminated safety regulations on the job. They ignored the monopoly laws and allowed thousands of companies to merge or be bought out and closed down. Corporations froze wages and threatened to move overseas if the workers didn't accept lower pay and less benefits. And when the workers agreed to work for less, they moved the jobs overseas anyway.

 

And at every step along the way, the majority of Americans went along with this. There was little opposition or fight-back. The "masses" did not rise up and protect their jobs, their homes, their schools (which used to be the best in the world). They just accepted their fate and took the beating.

 

I have often wondered what would have happened had we all just stopped flying, period, back in 1981. What if all the unions had said to Reagan, "Give those controllers their jobs back or we're shutting the country down!"? You know what would have happened. The corporate elite and their boy Reagan would have buckled.

 

But we didn't do it. And so, bit by bit, piece by piece, in the ensuing 30 years, those in power have destroyed the middle class of our country and, in turn, have wrecked the future for our young people. Wages have remained stagnant for 30 years. Take a look at the statistics and you can see that every decline we're now suffering with had it's beginning in 1981 (here's a little scene to illustrate that from my last movie).

 

It all began on this day, 30 years ago. One of the darkest days in American history. And we let it happen to us. Yes, they had the money, and the media and the cops. But we had 200 million of us. Ever wonder what it would look like if 200 million got truly upset and wanted their country, their life, their job, their weekend, their time with their kids back?

 

Have we all just given up? What are we waiting for? Forget about the 20% who support the Tea Party -- we are the other 80%! This decline will only end when we demand it. And not through an online petition or a tweet. We are going to have to turn the TV and the computer and the video games off and get out in the streets (like they've done in Wisconsin). Some of you need to run for local office next year. We need to demand that the Democrats either get a spine and stop taking corporate money -- or step aside.

 

When is enough, enough? The middle class dream will not just magically reappear. Wall Street's plan is clear: America is to be a nation of Haves and Have Nothings. Is that OK for you?

 

[stevienando]

Aug 5 (Reuters) - The United States lost its top-notch AAA credit rating from Standard & Poor's on Friday, in a dramatic reversal of fortune for the world's largest economy.

 

S&P cut the long-term U.S. credit rating by one notch to AA-plus on concerns about growing budget deficits.

 

U.S. Treasuries, once undisputedly seen as the safest investment in the world, are now rated lower than bonds issued by countries such as the UK, Germany, France or Canada.

 

The outlook on the new U.S. credit rating is negative, S&P said in a statement, a sign that another downgrade is possible in the next 12 to 18 months. (Reporting by Walter Brandimarte; Editing by Jan Paschal)

 

Obama's fucked.

[dennis tooth]

yip, altho I think when you look at the alternatives, the USA is fucked.

[Beantown Red]

S&P are saying they downgraded it because the debt reduction deal did not go far enough, not that the country was out of options. It is more about political ideology and damaging Obama instead of an actual crisis.

 

We have lowered our long-term sovereign credit rating on the United States of America to 'AA+' from 'AAA' and affirmed the 'A-1+' short-term rating.

 

We have also removed both the short- and long-term ratings from CreditWatch negative.

 

The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics.

 

More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.

 

Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government's debt dynamics any time soon.

 

The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if we see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I'm not sure I can think of a less competent agency than Standard & Poor's to make that decision. More ideological nonsense from the agency that fucked up every step of the way through the crisis.

[PestiRed]

Moody's will be the key one. Hopefully they'll hold

 

Credit agencies have bloody stupid names

[stringvest]

Big business will always do for the democrats in the end.

[Beantown Red]

The deal they came up with to solve the debt ceiling crisis, a joint Democratic-Republican Supercommittee, has until midnight to come up with an agreement to cut $1.2 trillion but it looks like they are going to fail. If they fail the $1.2 trillion will be cut automatically from domestic and defense programs starting in 2013 so most likely by that time the Republicans and the Pentagon will figure out a way to stop any cuts to defense programs.

[The Bugged Out]

the entire system is teetering on the brink of the abyss.

[Magic Sponge]

I had a dream last night that society, as we know it, collapsed. We were all left to fend for ourselves. It was a lot less fucking complex than all the shit that's goin on at the moment.

[Guest davelfc]

I was reading some rubbish about the end of the world (again) and some pulse from the sun that was going to wipe out all electronic devices and cause chaos.

 

As usual we are still here and it didn't happen. But I got to thinking that it would have been great, none of the debt really exists it's just numbers on a computer. Had an electro magnetic pulse from the sun really hit us then it would have done the world a massive favour.

 

You can't owe someone a trillion things in real life, you'd be dead before you counted them all.

[Section_31]

I had a dream last night that society, as we know it, collapsed. We were all left to fend for ourselves. It was a lot less fucking complex than all the shit that's going on at the moment.

 

It'd be boss. I'm 6'3 and you're a former squaddie, it'd be survival of the fittest the way things used to be, rather than survival of the most well connected. We'll be sitting on thrones of skulls and bathing in the tears of the Bullingdon Club boy's widows.

[Guest davelfc]

We need an ex servicemen gang, one of my wartime roles was to qwell civil unrest. I was always disappointed that I didn't get to try it out.

[Magic Sponge]

 

It'd be boss. I'm 6'3 and you're a former squaddie, it'd be survival of the fittest the way things used to be, rather than survival of the most well connected. We'll be sitting on thrones of skulls and bathing in the tears of the Bullingdon Club boy's widows.

 

Quality.

 

I'd use wild chavs that I've caught and tamed, as my mode of transport. All harnessed together using strips of shredded kappa clothing.

[Anubis]

It'd be boss. I'm 6'3 and you're a former squaddie, it'd be survival of the fittest the way things used to be, rather than survival of the most well connected. We'll be sitting on thrones of skulls and bathing in the tears of the Bullingdon Club boy's widows.

 

Quality.

 

I'd use wild chavs that I've caught and tamed, as my mode of transport. All harnessed together using strips of shredded kappa clothing.

 

 

You two want to come off sounding all Conan The Barbarian, but I can't help reading the above and thinking Master Blaster.

[Section_31]

You two want to come off sounding all Conan The Barbarian, but I can't help reading the above and thinking Master Blaster.

 

Correct. In fairness I am flat footed and spend roughly 90% of my time feeling extremely tired.

[Guest davelfc]

Correct. In fairness I am flat footed and spend roughly 90% of my time feeling extremely tired.

 

You'll make an ideal decoy. Oh and in keeping with the spirit of the forces your nickname is now 'kippers'