Tomlinson Hearing

[Charles Penrose]

It's symptomatic of people who have an issue with a Police related decision to go through the back catalogue of fouls and fuckups as if they're really relevant. Look hard enough and you might find the eight track of Rodney King getting kicked to shit, or a vinyl LP of the Birmingham Six getting water boarded. Why can't we discuss each case on its merits?

 

One question Walton. Do you think that had you been chosen as a juror you'd have left your pre-conceptions at the door? No-one went in there adamant that we're going to deliver a not guilty verdict pre trial, so why did they? Perhaps it was because the evidence against him was not compelling enough to send him to prison. Perhaps an underlying mistrust and dislike of Police based on past incidents wasn't quite enough for them to send him to the proverbial gallows.

[moof]

FUCK THE PO-LICE

 

Seriously though, most of them are utter cocks.

[Stu Monty]

Let's not pretend I'm on some great crusade to defend the Police here. I'm acutely aware that a not guilty verdict does not mean innocence, or even that a guilty verdict confirms certain guilt. I've seen the two blokes that murdered my uncle sent to prison for life, and conversely seen the lady who killed my mother by way of her shoddy driving escape without punishment. With that in mind, and given that I've spent nine years investigating crime and presenting evidence to the Courts, I'm at least as well placed and probably better placed than most to comment on the effectiveness of the legal system.

 

Fucking hell, even I think the Officer is guilty based on the evidence I've seen, but then again I wasn't privy to everything that twelve men and women were. The funny thing is that, at least statistically, the chances are that even the people on here crying foul play would have returned a verdict of not guilty yesterday afternoon. Even I would have gone into that Courtroom believing a man's death had been caused by the reckless, unlawful actions of a Police Officer. Who could honestly say they would have entered that Court room with no pre-conceived notions of guilt. I could just see Walton Red and Monty rubbing their hands maniacally at the thought of sending a man to prison regardless of what evidence is presented. Dispute it all you like, but the very fact you're on here lambasting the verdict based on the snapshot of the incident you had pre-trial only supports the accusation.

 

I'm not actually. I'm saying that the verdict looks very suspect and that it's only normal for people not to trust the justice system in this country to hold the police to account. I can't see how you'd have an issue with that.

 

My major gripe is that I'm waiting for all those coppers who stood and watch it happen and did nothing to be disciplined. That's the really damning image for me.

[Anubis]

Picking up on Stu's point, Charles - have you ever reported fellow officers who's behaviour is, shall we say, untoward, or been prepared to give evidence against them if they've faced prosecution or disciplinary proceedings?

[Elmyn Noos]

I don't get the police bashing on here at all. Show me a profession anywhere that doesn't have its fair share of cocks? Try knocking the armed forces on here like you do the police and see what reaction you get - and the british army is the very epitome of institutionalised thuggery.

 

The police in this country do a fucking difficult job, often in horrendous circumstances, and by and large do it very well. Of course, in a group of people that size drawn from the british public, you are going to get a handful of cunts, but like I say, pop into any office, bank, hospital, school, barracks, or football match and you'll find plenty there too.

[AquiMan]

It isn't a handfull of cunts like any other job though, the job attracts cunts in much the same way the job of a bouncer does.

The amount of thuggish policing that goes on (in major cities at least) would make most realise that the job weren't for them and they didn't like being a thug, just like if I was to be a bouncer I would probably give it up in a week as I wouldn't enjoy punching fuck out of drunken teenagers.

Eventually only the thugs are left and you have the reason people in city's have a dislike and distrust for a force of people that abuse the powers set in place to protect the people they are abusing.

Cunts to a man/shebitch (don't get me started on the shebizzies-power mad little drawfs)

[Charles Penrose]

I'm not actually. I'm saying that the verdict looks very suspect and that it's only normal for people not to trust the justice system in this country to hold the police to account. I can't see how you'd have an issue with that.

 

My major gripe is that I'm waiting for all those coppers who stood and watch it happen and did nothing to be disciplined. That's the really damning image for me.

 

I haven't got much of a problem with people not trusting the justice system. It very often doesn't get things right. But people throw in the terms scandal and corruption every time a verdict doesn't go the way they wish. The not guilty verdict is seemingly based on the fact medical experts couldn't agree. There was enough there to present a reasonable doubt and that is the evidential standard here. That's enough surely? This hasn't been about evidence withheld (it was captured on film, it doesn't get much better).

 

Anubis, no I never have. But then again, I've never seen anything that warranted it. I work in a City force but one which is relatively small in comparison to say London, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool. I can't deny there would be an exceptionally strong barrier to doing so though, however I do feel I've enough about me to speak up as and when required but it'd be difficult.

 

Maybe I've got a far too rosy opinion of us here. I don't see the levels of corruption or unnecessary heavy handedness that is rumoured to happen in the bigger forces. Here you don't get racism, you don't really get corruption and you don't get people beaten to shit.

[Elmyn Noos]

It isn't a handfull of cunts like any other job though, the job attracts cunts in much the same way the job of a bouncer does.

The amount of thuggish policing that goes on (in major cities at least) would make most realise that the job weren't for them and they didn't like being a thug, just like if I was to be a bouncer I would probably give it up in a week as I wouldn't enjoy punching fuck out of drunken teenagers.

Eventually only the thugs are left and you have the reason people in city's have a dislike and distrust for a force of people that abuse the powers set in place to protect the people they are abusing.

Cunts to a man/shebitch (don't get me started on the shebizzies-power mad little drawfs)

 

Nonsense. I suppose you'd have squads of social workers patrolling the city centres at chucking out time on a Saturday night then?

[Tom R]

I don't get the police bashing on here at all. Show me a profession anywhere that doesn't have its fair share of cocks? Try knocking the armed forces on here like you do the police and see what reaction you get - and the british army is the very epitome of institutionalised thuggery.

 

The police in this country do a fucking difficult job, often in horrendous circumstances, and by and large do it very well. Of course, in a group of people that size drawn from the british public, you are going to get a handful of cunts, but like I say, pop into any office, bank, hospital, school, barracks, or football match and you'll find plenty there too.

 

bang on mate.

 

I can understand people's misgivings with this verdict, though.

 

It's all well and good saying that he was judged by a jury of his peers, but don't forget that the defence team has a strong influence in hand picking and selecting that jury of peers.

I'd be absolutely staggered if every single person in that jury, to a man and woman, wasn't between the age of 45 and 60, very white, very middle class, very straight and law-fearing, and very supportive in general of all of our big brave coppers.

[Tom R]

EDIT - interesting legal titbit: Expert studies have shown that up to 85% of court cases are believed to be won or lost on jury selection alone.

 

 

So don't believe or this bollocks about juries being "randomly" selected. They're not.

[Charles Penrose]

EDIT - interesting legal titbit: Expert studies have shown that up to 85% of court cases are believed to be won or lost on jury selection alone.

 

 

So don't believe or this bollocks about juries being "randomly" selected. They're not.

 

Gene Hackman is a fucking cunt.

[Tom R]

haha.

 

No idea what you're referring to, and I'm sure it's a clever film analogy, but I have always suspected that to be the case anyway.

[Tom R]

Since 1990, in the UK, a total 1,433 people have died after having contact with the police.

How many officers have been convicted of manslaughter?.... None.

 

You can dress this up any way you like, but this verdict was entirely predictable. I'd have bet the keys to my house on it.

 

In other news, G4S have been told this week that none of their operatives will face any charges after restraining a man to death as he was being deported to Angola.

 

Have a safe Olympics!

[AquiMan]

 

Nonsense. I suppose you'd have squads of social workers patrolling the city centres at chucking out time on a Saturday night then?

 

Nope , just saying the profession is flooded with power abusing bellends. not just at chucking out time either, I was no scallywag as a teenager but the treatment we received during our daily stops just breeds contempt.

I'm not offering a solution , I'm stating that your view that it's like any profession in relation to the percentage of cunts is wrong

[Stu Monty]

I don't get the police bashing on here at all. Show me a profession anywhere that doesn't have its fair share of cocks? Try knocking the armed forces on here like you do the police and see what reaction you get - and the british army is the very epitome of institutionalised thuggery.

 

The police in this country do a fucking difficult job, often in horrendous circumstances, and by and large do it very well. Of course, in a group of people that size drawn from the british public, you are going to get a handful of cunts, but like I say, pop into any office, bank, hospital, school, barracks, or football match and you'll find plenty there too.

 

The point is that they have to hold themselves to a higher standard; they are the police. They uphold the law. They need systems to ensure that they operate at better standards than the general public.

 

I've had a pop at the military too. It's no surprise that when you give people the power to police themselves they tend to get away with things they shouldn't.

[Charles Penrose]

Can I just address this death after Police contact thing that keeps cropping up.

 

It would include some moron attempting to evade Police during a road traffic pursuit who crashed into a wall whilst turning a corner at 70mph. It includes someone that jumps off a building whilst talking to a Police negotiator trying to coax them down, it includes a missing person we are actively looking for or have returned home. It includes someone who dies in Custody after having suffered a head injury prior to Police contact and who failed to disclose it. In actual fact, I'm in Coroners Court later this year for a 'death after Police contact' in which the actions of myself and other Officer's were praised by members of the public watching the incident unfold (you'll appreciate I can't be specific).

 

The percentage of those 1433 people who died in any way due to the deliberate or negligent actions of Police Officer's will be miniscule. It obviously includes De Menezes and will obviously include Tomlinson and the shooting of Mark Duggan which sparked last summers riots and the death of Christopher Alder. People are using the figure as if all of those 1433 were shrouded in the same uncertainty. They just aren't. A little balance here please.

[lifetime fan]

haha.

 

No idea what you're referring to, and I'm sure it's a clever film analogy, but I have always suspected that to be the case anyway.

 

 

Runaway Jury

[Elmyn Noos]

The point is that they have to hold themselves to a higher standard; they are the police. They uphold the law. They need systems to ensure that they operate at better standards than the general public.

 

I've had a pop at the military too. It's no surprise that when you give people the power to police themselves they tend to get away with things they shouldn't.

 

I would argue that the majority do, but the high profile fuckups give them a bad name - not as some on here would suggest, that this case is the norm.

 

Look at all the coppers that were at that protest march that didn't murder anyone. That day. No-one talks about that do they?

[Champ]

Nope , just saying the profession is flooded with power abusing bellends. not just at chucking out time either, I was no scallywag as a teenager but the treatment we received during our daily stops just breeds contempt.

I'm not offering a solution , I'm stating that your view that it's like any profession in relation to the percentage of cunts is wrong

 

These two statements strike me as a bit incongruous.

 

I come into contact with the Police through work on a regular basis and in the overwhelming majority of cases find them to be hard working decent people who will often 'go the extra mile' to do things that would not necessarily be regarded as 'Police work' often in the face of high levels of abuse and hostility.

 

Very uneasy at the 'new' Emlyn Noos. I keep being in agreement with him

[Elmyn Noos]

These two statements strike me as a bit incongruous.

 

I come into contact with the Police through work on a regular basis and in the overwhelming majority of cases find them to be hard working decent people who will often 'go the extra mile' to do things that would not necessarily be regarded as 'Police work' often in the face of high levels of abuse and hostility.

 

Very uneasy at the 'new' Emlyn Noos. I keep being in agreement with him

 

I agree. I think if you come into regular enough contact with the police to hate them, then it's probably you that's the cunt.

[Champ]

I agree. I think if you come into regular enough contact with the police to hate them, then it's probably you that's the cunt.

And now he's agreeing with me!

 

But, seriously, that's how it strikes me

[jonnybastard]

Fear biters, the fucking lot of them. When I was a younger man our local police were notorious for kicking fuck out of people in the cells (they even got first dibs at the birmingham six). In the 80's two of them were found guilty of killing Owen Roberts, a local hard man who was cuffed, kicked, stamped on and bludgeoned to death to 'teach him a lesson'.

[Elmyn Noos]

Fear biters, the fucking lot of them. When I was a younger man our local police were notorious for kicking fuck out of people in the cells (they even got first dibs at the birmingham six). In the 80's two of them were found guilty of killing Owen Roberts, a local hard man who was cuffed, kicked, stamped on and bludgeoned to death to 'teach him a lesson'.

 

Birmingham Six and some "local hard man from the 80's" (which usually means absolute cunt who got what he deserved)? You're judging today's police force on hearsay from 30 years ago.

[jonnybastard]

He may well have been a cunt, but he didn't deserve to die like an animal. And I've seen no evidence in the last 30 years of any great improvement in the police force.

[kelster]

I think it is important for people to remember that not all police are violent scum out to cover their own or colleagues backsides. 5, maybe even 10 percent of police do a conscientious job and look to interact with the public in a polite and respectful way. You'll usually see them on telly, rarely on the front desk of a police station.