James Bulger Killer Jon Venables back in Prison

[Fowlers God]

Latest rumour is he raped a 19 year old girl in Warrington.

 

mmmm Rumour. I prefer just to hate him for fact- Fact that he killed and tortued an innocent 2 year old boy to death. Fuck his rights SD and Fuck him. Why should I give a toss about him when that child may have been mine?

[Plewggs]

Latest rumour is he raped a 19 year old girl in Warrington.

 

You have him confused with David Calvert who lives in Fleetwood.

Calvert spent time at Barton Child and knew the area, especially the school grounds in Long Lane where the girl was raped.

 

A prison officer doesn't think Calvert's crime should be kept secret.

 

FWIW, neither do I.

[briefs]

Why should a muslim have the right to not eat pork when he has killed the lives of innocent people.

 

Are you suggesting that we force feed Muslims pork as some form of punishment for war crimes?

 

This is a very emotive thread with some very strong and thoughtful views on it but seriously, some of you have lost the plot.

[Antynwa]

You have him confused with David Calvert who lives in Fleetwood.

Calvert spent time at Barton Child and knew the area, especially the school grounds in Long Lane where the girl was raped.

 

A prison officer doesn't think Calvert's crime should be kept secret.

 

FWIW, neither do I.

 

David Calvert got done for Fraud not rape

[Fowlers God]

Are you suggesting that we force feed Muslims pork as some form of punishment for war crimes?

 

This is a very emotive thread with some very strong and thoughtful views on it but seriously, some of you have lost the plot.

 

There is no way to take this out of context at all. What I am saying that if pork is on the menu in prison its on the menu. You shouldnt be able to choose what you eat. What I am saying is that whatever colour/race/creed/sex/sexuality ect you have no human rights once you have killed/tortured/sexually abused another person.

[AVEEZ]

Mine is that they do not deserve any rights. When you do not conform to the law of the land or even the moral grounds of a nation then what right do they have. Everyone has the right to a fair trial- That is it. once found guilty why should you have the right to vote fopr instance? Why should a muslim have the right to not eat pork when he has killed the lives of innocent people.

 

I have human rights because I try my hardest not to break any laws of the land- I do not hurt other people in either emotionally or physical ways and I pay my taxes.

 

FG this made me laugh out loud and spurt hot tea down my nose - which hurt - alot!!

 

You had me on the voting thing but surely you jest on the right not to eat something..regardless of whether or not I believe that you should give up certain rights once you have committed a crime - I cant honestly say that your actual rights over your own body are removed, unless of course you are talking about the right to breath under a death penalty - which is of course a different herd of cattle.

 

Can you imagine anything funnier -

 

Judge "Mr Muslim sir - you have commited a most heinous crime, one for which you have shown no remorse, do you have anything to say before sentencing?"

 

Mr Muslim " Nope"

 

Judge "in that case I sentance you to 5 years of menus consisting of

Monday, Pork curry

Tuesdays Pork pies

Wednesdays Normandy Pork

Thursdays Rillions of Pork

Fridays, parma ham wrapped pork

Saturdays - BBQ Spare ribs

with Sundays being Bacon butties for breakfast, with a roast Pork lunch with trimmings and yorkshires. TAKE HIM DOWN."

[Strontium]

What I am saying is that whatever colour/race/creed/sex/sexuality ect you have no human rights once you have killed/tortured/sexually abused another person.

 

 

Why just limit it to killing, torture or sexual abuse!

 

I say we remove all human rights from people who cut you up on the motorway, people who rob stationery from the office and people who work cash in hand.

 

That'll learn them.

[Whelan]

There is no way to take this out of context at all. What I am saying that if pork is on the menu in prison its on the menu. You shouldnt be able to choose what you eat. What I am saying is that whatever colour/race/creed/sex/sexuality ect you have no human rights once you have killed/tortured/sexually abused another person.

 

You are of course only talking about those people who you are 100%, confident, absolutely sure, certain that they are guilty!

 

I mean lets say for instance you take away the basic human rights of the Birmingham six, or Barry George, how does you theory work in those instances?

[Section_31]

Latest rumour is he raped a 19 year old girl in Warrington.

 

Would something like this only be a 'breach of his licence' though? Surely he'd just be arrested and put on remand the way anyone else would, under his new identity. The fact he was 'recalled to prison' suggests to me he's done something which he's specifically been told not to do, i.e enter a certain area or contact someone. Maybe even telling people who he really is is a breach of his licence?

 

I like the thought of strong punishments more than the next man, but this is all getting a bit daft. Many of the people who cry for justice and want him stabbing in the bollocks don't really care either way, they're just the type of people who like kicking off.

[Fowlers God]

Why just limit it to killing, torture or sexual abuse!

I say we remove all human rights from people who cut you up on the motorway, people who rob stationery from the office and people who work cash in hand.

 

That'll learn them.

 

Because we are talking about this in this subject. All I am saying is that if Venables for instance was of a different culture then that human right of deciding whether he should eat pork or not.

[redrosetints]

Would something like this only be a 'breach of his licence' though? Surely he'd just be arrested and put on remand the way anyone else would, under his new identity. The fact he was 'recalled to prison' suggests to me he's done something which he's specifically been told not to do, i.e enter a certain area or contact someone. Maybe even telling people who he really is is a breach of his licence?

 

I like the thought of strong punishments more than the next man, but this is all getting a bit daft. Many of the people who cry for justice and want him stabbing in the bollocks don't really care either way, they're just the type of people who like kicking off.

 

fro the different articles and one from teh Post which has been taken offline, it looks like he was originally recalled as he'd been rumbled, hence the fight at work, allegedly. In the process of moving him on, images were found on his pc.

 

Allegedly.

[Strontium]

Because we are talking about this in this subject. All I am saying is that if Venables for instance was of a different culture then that human right of deciding whether he should eat pork or not.

 

 

No offence, but you're a fucking mental.

 

Forcing Muslim criminals to eat pork as a punishment is easily the battiest non-simonlfcgreen idea I've seen on these forums this year.

[Stu Monty]

Because we are talking about this in this subject. All I am saying is that if Venables for instance was of a different culture then that human right of deciding whether he should eat pork or not.

 

Where do you stop then?

 

Does he have the right to a bed? Does he have a right to be fed and clothed? Who decided who gets treated as a human being and who doesn't? And just how many times do they have to apologise when some poor cunt who got framed comes out after twenty years of eating dog food in a bare concrete cell just because you wanted to inflict some pain on them.

 

I see you're not one for all that forgiveness stuff in religion, just the fire and brimstone stuff.

[Liverpool lad]

Why does every thread end up talking about Muslims?

[Jokerman]

Found this article quite interesting when looking at how children who commit such crimes should be treated. There are some key differences to the Bulger case; the children are much younger in this case and there's little in the article about how the public reacted to the investigation and the treatment of the perpetrators. Still found it interesting when thinking about these issues in broader terms though. It would be interesting to know, as the article is now 10 years old, how those involved have faired since ...

 

Young killers shown compassion

 

At what age should our children lose their innocence and take on adult responsibility?

 

The Bulger case touched such a raw nerve in Britain that it still produces powerful feelings even now seven years after two-year-old James was murdered. There was an outcry when the European Court of Human Rights recently forced the Home Secretary to review the sentence the killers should serve.

 

Just after James Bulger was murdered there was a case in Norway with almost eerie similarities: the two killers were children; there was that edge of cruelty about the way they were killed; and again the victim was a younger child - in this case a little girl. Yet the reaction of the community and the handling of her young killers marked an almost total contrast to that of the Bulger case.

 

The body of little Silje Redergard was found in the snow near her home in the Norwegian city of Trondheim. She had been beaten and battered and left to freeze to death by her attackers. Like the Bulger case it caused a city and a nation to examine its conscience.

 

Violent crime in Norway is rare, crimes against children are almost unheard of. As the first snow of winter was falling on Saturday the 15th of October 1994, Silje Redergard was out playing near her home. She was five years old, the middle of three children. The most her mother had to fear was an accident.

 

Beate Redergard was at home when there was a knock at the door. "One of the local children came to the door and told me what had happened. He said Silje had been found dead on the slope where they had been sledging. I couldn't believe it; it just didn't seem possible."

 

Silje had been murdered. The police quickly narrowed down the prime suspects, the two boys seen nearby. They were both six years old. Terje Lund, the police officer leading the investigation, did not treat the boys as he would other suspects. "I brought some toys with me from home and I asked the parents to bring some toys so we could try to be confident with the boys by playing." After an hour or so of gaining the boys' confidence they were officially interrogated. This took fifteen minutes, in which the boys confessed to using violence against Silje and then leaving her.

 

That night news of the murder spread. "I was shocked, my colleagues were shocked, the whole society was shocked", explains Terje Lund. "I don't know if it happened before in Norway so we were in a unique position ... and we were starting to get information from abroad to see if it had happened in Europe before and then we found a case in Britain."

 

Children treated differently to adults

 

That was the Bulger case. But the way in which Norway dealt with the murder of Silje was in stark contrast to that of James Bulger's. It's an astonishing story that forces us to challenge some of our basic principles of how we deal with young offenders.

 

In Norway, no children under 15 are prosecuted and Silje's killers were back at kindergarten within a week. The local community were encouraged to air their views and brought together to grieve openly. A team of counsellors was set up to work with the children in school. The strategy worked and, amazingly, there were no reprisals against either of the boys or their families. They were able to carry on living on the local housing estate.

 

The police, the local community and even Silje's mother were united in believing that they shouldn't be punished. "Yes, I feel sympathy for them," she says. "They need compassion. They must be treated as children and be shown kindness and concern rather than vengeance."

 

In England the age of criminal responsibility is ten. Laurence Lee, who represented one of the Bulger killers, questions whether England's policy is correct. "I come into contact with a good deal of juvenile crime and I see the same kids time and time again going through the system, receiving different penalties ... all that happens is they grow up through the system and become adult criminals."

 

Terje Lund, the policeman in charge of the Norway case, is adamant that young offenders should receive different treatment from adults, "I really don't like to hear that you can put children, ten years old, into custody. I think it's meaningless." The psychologist who treated the two Norwegian boys argues that children must be treated with compassion, "It's really got something to do with how you treat children. Because what we were concerned with was to do everything we could to prevent these children from developing further into dangerous and criminal individuals. And to do that you have to keep the children integrated in a normal environment." The boys were considered victims in much the same way as Silje.

 

On one of the first days back in the Kindergarten, one of the boys who killed Silje asked his helper if he could go for a walk. The boy brought him to the place where Silje was killed and they sat and talked about what happened. Such freedom would be unthinkable in England. However, this freedom does not necessarily abrogate feelings of forgiveness and guilt.

 

The two boys have visited Silje's grave to make real to them the tragic events in October 1994, and both have expressed remorse for what happened. While the Bulger killers remain locked away suffering from our desire for retribution, Silje's mother, Beate, believes it is easier to cope if you feel kindness and concern rather than vengeance and thinks she will, in time, forgive the boys involved in her daughter's tragic death.

 

"Clearly their system works for them", states Lee, "the statistics prove it. And maybe there are some things they can teach us." However, he fears that the social problems in English cities are now so entrenched that "we've missed our opportunity."

 

In light of last year's ruling by the European Court of Human Rights, stating that the trial of the two boys was unfair, questions may be raised in England as to how responsible children are for their actions and whether we should seek rehabilitation or retribution.

[Fowlers God]

Where do you stop then?

 

Does he have the right to a bed? Does he have a right to be fed and clothed? Who decided who gets treated as a human being and who doesn't? And just how many times do they have to apologise when some poor cunt who got framed comes out after twenty years of eating dog food in a bare concrete cell just because you wanted to inflict some pain on them.

 

I see you're not one for all that forgiveness stuff in religion, just the fire and brimstone stuff.

 

Its a very good point about where do you stop with his rights i.e a bed for example and the following, but you have missed my innitial point I think. All I am saying is if the bed covers for the bed are made from cotton and someone comes out and says that the only material allowed on their skin is silk, their human rights to decide that are gone once they are in prison for killing someone. The same thing is said about pork being on the menu. If its ont the menu because its cheap and bought cheaply on the TAX PAYERS money, then they have the option of course of not eating it, but they shouldnt be treated differently and be given a different meal.

[King Emlyn]

Where do you stop then?

 

Does he have the right to a bed? Does he have a right to be fed and clothed? Who decided who gets treated as a human being and who doesn't? And just how many times do they have to apologise when some poor cunt who got framed comes out after twenty years of eating dog food in a bare concrete cell just because you wanted to inflict some pain on them.

 

I see you're not one for all that forgiveness stuff in religion, just the fire and brimstone stuff.

Anybody convicted of similar crimes to this should be afforded only the very basics imo, they should be fed, medically cared for and that's about your lot. They do apparantly have access to luxuries such as Sky television, things people working away on the outside simply cannot afford. Surely this cannot be right. An extension of you're argument admittedly but you take the point? It's really not all Daily Mail slavering surely?

[Strontium]

Anybody convicted of similar crimes to this should be afforded only the very basics imo, they should be fed, medically cared for and that's about your lot. They do apparantly have access to luxuries such as Sky television, things people working away on the outside simply cannot afford. Surely this cannot be right. An extension of you're argument admittedly but you take the point? It's really not all Daily Mail slavering surely?

 

 

Your impession of the "luxuries" afforded prisoners is so out of touch with reality.

 

Perhaps you should visit a prison and see what conditions inmates have to live under instead of taking the Daily Mail's word for it?

[The 5th Benitel]

A ten year old child who has never been told what is right and what is wrong wouldn't know what is right and what is wrong!

 

It is the same with Mary Bell, she lived in a one bedroom flat whilst her mother took tricks from punters, to me that is inconceivable and utterly beyond comprehension how any child could grow up normal.

 

My mrs is a primary school teacher in Kenny and has dealt with numerous kids with backgrounds as bad and often worse than those two experienced. I'm sure the same can be said for thousands of kids across the country, unfortunately. None of them have done anything as evil as those two.

 

Also, if they didn't know it was wrong why did they try to get away with it?

[eternalscot]

Is Venables Anthony Marsh arrested the same week? They look so alike!

[Guest TK-421]

Young manager there's no need to feel down

I said young manager pick yourself off the ground

 

Oops, wrong thread.

[Guest TK-421]

There is no way to take this out of context at all. What I am saying that if pork is on the menu in prison its on the menu. You shouldnt be able to choose what you eat. What I am saying is that whatever colour/race/creed/sex/sexuality ect you have no human rights once you have killed/tortured/sexually abused another person.

 

Does that include a chinese burn? My siblings always gave me chinese burns cos I was the youngest and they bullied me. I might get revenge and force feed them some bacon sarnies when they're least expecting it.

[King Emlyn]

Your impession of the "luxuries" afforded prisoners is so out of touch with reality.

 

Perhaps you should visit a prison and see what conditions inmates have to live under instead of taking the Daily Mail's word for it?

How do you know i haven't?

 

In any event these threads just go around in circles, for me, you seriously hurt or kill somebody with a premeditated crime, you forfeit just about everything; and trust me, i'm not a Daily Mail flag waver.

Edited March 10, 2010 by King Emlyn

[Fowlers God]

How do you know i haven't?

 

In any event these threads just go around in circles, for me, you seriously hurt or kill somebody with a premeditated crime, you forfeit just about everything; and trust me, i'm not a Daily Mail flag waver.

 

This is a man who talks sense,

[Stu Monty]

How do you know i haven't?

 

In any event these threads just go around in circles, for me, you seriously hurt or kill somebody with a premeditated crime, you forfeit just about everything; and trust me, i'm not a Daily Mail flag waver.

 

Does that include soldiers?

 

I don't think you're a daily mail flag waver, just that we disagree on these issues.

 

I agree that prison should be relatively basic but I also see it as a place to turn broken people into useful people and I don't think you get that with purely bread, water and a rusty bed. Maybe there's something to be said for different grades of prison and you can move from one star to five star depending on your behaviour and attitude towards becoming a balanced member of society again. Clearly when I say one star I don't mean gruel and when I say five I don't mean caviar but it's an idea that's just come to me and I'm typing as I think.