James Bulger Killer Jon Venables back in Prison

[Stu Monty]

I get the feeling that the Guardian brigade must have an answer, and will wheel out endless cod-psychology to try and explain human depravity. Yet those who spent years with the boys seem to suggest they don't know why they did it.

 

Even if the world was free of poor parents and poverty I'm sure it'd still produce a Josef Mengele and others with no regard for human life.

 

Who said anything about poverty? You don't have tobe rich to attempt to bring a child up the right way. If the planet were only populated with well balanced people I'd imagine the odds of a Mengele would be very, very small. I don't think people are born evil, they're moulded that way.

 

I don't particularly have the answer but I do look to understand causation, as I think that's the way I'm most likely to find one. You want to read some of Dirk's posts if you don't want cod.

[cracker]

To continue having seen some further contributions - I am not a Daily Mail reader, I am not in favour of capital punishement, I am just someone with a strong sense of justice and what I see for Venables and Thompson and the like is not justice - people like them I honestly believe will look at what has happened to them and think that they have 'got off' and in a way they have as they have been free from the age of 18. I doubt that they really regret what they did or even really grasp it tbh.

 

In school I hear horrendous stories of kids homes and obviously many bad kids are like that cos of bad parents (you can see that their values mirror those of their parents) but the truth is that many many other kids have awful homes and still turn out OK. Here I am not particularly thinking of working hard and achieving academically in school - there are many who do not care about school work or whatever but you can still tell deep down that they are OK people and will be OK people when they leave school - job (if they're lucky), mates, hobbies, maybe get a partner and kids as they can relate to others ... etc so they will have a 'normal' life. Others (not many) you can predict will get into trouble with the law simply cos of the way they are.

 

Trust me good teachers (which is most of them) constantly try to be patient and model good behaviour to kids in terms of how to talk to others and the really bad kids (a very small minority) just ignore it and cannot ever seem to talk or behave reasonably. I know there are times whan I have not reacted the best when my patience has worn out and I have shouted at a kid or said something I shouldn't but on the whole I have a clear conscience that I try every single day to teach all the kids I teach how to behave and I hope that overall I show them a good example.

 

But you look at yer average teenager and tell me you could react patiently all the time with them!! - you only have to ask if people want to be teachers to learn how hard others see the job we do!!

[Anny Road]

I am going to sit on the fence in terms of the death penalty, simply because I don't trust the coppers enough, but these cunts should never have been released.

Who does it serve letting these two wander about?

[mgw100]

I get the feeling that the Guardian brigade must have an answer, and will wheel out endless cod-psychology to try and explain human depravity. Yet those who spent years with the boys seem to suggest they don't know why they did it.

 

Even if the world was free of poor parents and poverty I'm sure it'd still produce a Josef Mengele and others with no regard for human life.

 

Yeah, I do actually know what you mean.

 

Having said that, for Mengele and the rest of the Nazi weirdos, us Guardian brigade have a pretty standard explanation, what with the fucked up self worth of a proud nation primed for world domination by Kaiser Bill yet reduced to street corner Weimar nomarks, printing off ever growing denominations of Marks while being screwed for wartime reparations and humbling apologies by your enemies (who hypocritically continue to enjoy the fruits of an Imperialistic bounty.....)

 

Plus he was a bit mental....

[Stu Monty]

I am going to sit on the fence in terms of the death penalty, simply because I don't trust the coppers enough, but these cunts should never have been released.

Who does it serve letting these two wander about?

 

It serves the taxpayer Anny, if you want to think in cold hard cash that is going to be spent keeping them. I imagine that whoever is making the call on the issue also thinks it is helping the two of them become normalised and useful and therefore it's helping society.

 

You may disagree that it is right, or that it will work, but that's who it's attempting to serve in their eyes.

[Anny Road]

I had a mate who was in care all his life. He was a thief and a real villian drugs armed robbery the lot.

See him with kids you would think he was a saint. Nicest bloke in the world.

Killing is different than being a wrongun. Thats like a dog thats bitten, you put it down.

[Anny Road]

It serves the taxpayer Anny, if you want to think in cold hard cash that is going to be spent keeping them. I imagine that whoever is making the call on the issue also thinks it is helping the two of them become normalised and useful and therefore it's helping society.

 

You may disagree that it is right, or that it will work, but that's who it's attempting to serve in their eyes.

 

Personally Stu I don't care how much it costs. Thats the price we pay for a civilised society.

The alternative is chinese execution vans.

[mgw100]

But you look at yer average teenager and tell me you could react patiently all the time with them!! - you only have to ask if people want to be teachers to learn how hard others see the job we do!!

 

Jeez mate, I know I couldn't do it. Hats off to you. I've got teacher friends and I know it's really challenging

[cracker]

Interesting post Cracker.

 

A couple of questions in terms of context....

 

Is your school in a deprived area?

 

If yes, would you expect similar behavioural standards in a middle class area?

 

Yes it is a deprived area - I have taught in 4 schools over my career - 2 in South Yorkshire in the 1980s and now 2 in North Wales.

 

I have been in Wales for over 20 years now and so can hardly remember the SY schools - one was in a mining village (or ex mining village post Thatcher) and the other in inner city Sheffield but they both had diffciult kids yeah.

 

The 2 schools in Wales are different - one was I would say an average school and I was there 16 years but where i am now (and have been for 6 years) is one of the most socio economically deprived places in the area and there i think I have met worse kids behaviour wise than I have ever done elsewhere. I know many teachers would hate our school and would not cope with it but most of the time I like it as the kids are genuine. and likeable. Also you do not get arrogant kids which you would do in a 'better' area but I do see some who I can see are very nasty pieces of work and I would have to say that I think that it would not be possible to change them. What should happen to such people? - the $64000 question - keep them under constant supervision and make it so they cannot disrupt normal peoples lives imo and if that means some kind of locking up then so be it.

 

Just reread your quote and see that I have not really answered your question about behaviour in middle class areas - hard to generalise as obviously there will be exceptions to the rule but overall as i said I would say that the worst behaviour I have come across is in my present school which is in the poorest area of the 4 I have worked in

Edited March 6, 2010 by cracker

[Anny Road]

Stop giving free money to women who have babies.

[mgw100]

What should happen to such people? - the $64000 question - keep them under constant supervision and make it so they cannot disrupt normal peoples lives imo and if that means some kind of locking up then so be it.

 

Yes, I agree this is the tricky part. I think it's possible to see a trend of cause and effect in terms of behaviour, which is my point, but how you manage that is an altogether more complex question. I don't have the answer I'm afraid, but I think that at least some of the focus should be to find it.

 

As you indicate, we need to balance our understanding of the causes of bad behaviour with limiting it's affect on others.

[Stu Monty]

I'm taking a wild punt that Cracker is currently working in Rhyl. Would I be wide of the mark mate?

[mgw100]

I also agree that obnoxious behaviour isn't limited to socio/economic deprivation. Some of the most irritating people I have ever come across derive from a public school rugger-bugger background. Different topic, but of the same ilk.

[cracker]

I'm taking a wild punt that Cracker is currently working in Rhyl. Would I be wide of the mark mate?

 

Wrong!!

 

But I could be as I live near Rhyl and know it well - and what I said about where I work (try nearer the border) is equally true of Rhyl!!

[cracker]

I also agree that obnoxious behaviour isn't limited to socio/economic deprivation. Some of the most irritating people I have ever come across derive from a public school rugger-bugger background. Different topic, but of the same ilk.

 

Yeah I know what youre saying mate - thats why I do not think i could work in a posh school for rich kids - I'd want to punch them - and thats kinda against the rules!!

[cochcaer]

It serves the taxpayer Anny, if you want to think in cold hard cash that is going to be spent keeping them. I imagine that whoever is making the call on the issue also thinks it is helping the two of them become normalised and useful and therefore it's helping society.

 

Personally, the cash is a minor annoyance and the key is the parole board agreeing they are 'no longer a threat to society'. Until more is known about the circumstances behind JV's recall I can't make a judgement on that.

 

At the time I thought they were released too soon, not out on vengeance just that I'd have preferred to see them mature more, but if the alternative was a young offenders institution then maybe parole was the lesser of two evils. We'll perhaps never know, but I hope they've had some assigned father figure that has tried to assist and guide them on the outside.

[mgw100]

Yeah I know what youre saying mate - thats why I do not think i could work in a posh school for rich kids - I'd want to punch them - and thats kinda against the rules!!

 

Don't punch them, just whisper in their ear occasionally that they are no better than anyone else and that failure is an option for them. If you can induce humility in just one, then you can retire a happy man. Oh for job satisfaction like that.

[cochcaer]

Yeah I know what youre saying mate - thats why I do not think i could work in a posh school for rich kids - I'd want to punch them - and thats kinda against the rules!!

 

The answer is in the 'If...'

 

[cochcaer]

Jon Venables sent back to prison over child porn offence - mirror.co.uk

[mgw100]

Jon Venables sent back to prison over child porn offence - mirror.co.uk

 

Hmmm..pretty serious allegations then

 

Two things about that report though....

 

1. "we can exclusively reveal that probation chiefs revoked his licence once the allegations had been made"

 

Allegations are one thing but then let's everyone just wait until the facts are out and due process is undertaken. It wouldn't be ridiculous to think that some people might have a grudge, hence allegations

 

2. "The boys were never properly questioned about whether there was a sexual motive in the killing as they became hysterical when the subject was brought up, but police were concerned that sexual abuse may have been committed."

 

Eh? Really? The investigators just gave up on this question because they were 'hysterical'? Bollocks. What about forensic evidence? Sounds like a made up media trinket to me

[Anny Road]

shock waves

 

criminal

 

Today

 

exclusive

 

Reveal

 

Jordan ( fail intrerview)

[Dougie Do'ins]

Didn't Jamie Bulger suffer injuries that had they been inflicted by an adult, would have been described as sexual assault.

[cochcaer]

Eh? Really? The investigators just gave up on this question because they were 'hysterical'? Bollocks. What about forensic evidence? Sounds like a made up media trinket to me

 

Wasn't it years before either would talk about the murder fully?

[King Emlyn]

mmmmm, not shaping up well for the beard strokers this one.

[George Costanza]

My last post.

 

They both should be fucking shot. Rehabilitation does not fucking work. Kill them all...

 

Thank you you've been a wonderful audience. Good night