2 things about Rafa that have really pissed me off since Boro

[Barrington Womble]

Clearly I want Rafa to stay. But this is not about that at all.

 

He is stalling on a new deal.

Therefore we should not be giving a player who he rates more than most a new deal.

 

If Rafa had 4 weeks left to go would you let him go to Spain & spend £20m on a player who the new manager might not want?

 

No

 

But this is exactly the same situation.

 

We are committing £20m of our resources to a player who the new manager might not want.

Lets's wait. If Rafa is replaced then let the new man spend that £20m himself on a player he wants

 

So to use Vladi's analogy earlier in the thread. Rafa stalls on new deal, he moves in the summer and the value of Kuyt is suddenly a whole lot less than it would be should he get a new 4 year deal and opens the door for Rafa to do a cheap deal to a new club. It's pure madness and any attempt to say otherwise is blinkered. Kuyt is a Dutch international - we won't be saddled with him, plenty of clubs will be in for him should a new manager not fancy him. At what point is it in LFC's interests to get him almost to a Bosman? You want it to make sense because anything else means Rafa is guilty of gross misconduct and should be fired instantly.

 

While Rafa is stalling on a new contract and is not committed long term to LFC any contract negotiation he is involved with is tainted. It is a clear conflict of interests and is yet another example of why he shouldn't have 100% control of transfers and contracts.

[Whelan]

Maybe they both should have played with gerrard in centre mid. I dont think Keane was ever given a fair crack of the whip at Liverpool.

Gerrard has been trained as a centre mid from the age of 7 so I dont understand this new found theory by some that he cannot play centre mid.

 

To start being a more attacking team we may have to consider using him back in the centre as at present alonso, masch and our wide players are just not contributing with enough goals in my opinion.

 

Gerrard can play centre mid, I dont think he can play it alongside Alonso though. I think the point behind Keane is that it was the timing! the right offer for us, the right club for Keane and it happened. Had Tottenham offered 10 million I dont think he would have gone.

In all the time he was here he offered very little, and once again he was played off the striker that is a totale lie, and why does Keane get special treatment! Why not give Dossena a run? what about Lucas? Riera came from Spain and settled in quicker than a player who was playing in the premiership!!

[t1971]

I've not been on for a few days and had a little search to see if anyone has picked up on a couple of things since Saturdays surrender. I couldn't find anything so appologies if this has been posted elsewhere.

 

1. Dirk Kuyt being interviewed saying he wants to sign a new contract and it's not the club blocking it but Rafa. Rafa told him nothing can be done till his own situation is sorted. If that's the case, Rafa wants fucking for this - the lad has about 15 months left on his contract and is effectively worth less as every day passes while Rafa is titting about with his political games. Rafa is there to act in the interests of LFC not Rafa Benitez. In my opionion this is gross misconduct and in any other industry would see him fired.

 

2. Rafa made some comment yesterday saying something like "I didn't see our slump coming because until the new year everything had been going so well". Does he send some stunt double to watch our matches or something? Fucking hell how could he not see it coming, it's been written all over everything we've done since the 1st match of the season? Maybe if he spent less time telling everyone how fucking great he was and how he should be ruling everything at the club and more time studying the absolute turgid shite we've all been watching this season instead of taking a quick glance at the result, then maybe, just maybe it wouldn't have been a surprise. It's been no fucking surprise to me that's for sure.

 

Rafa needs to get his head out of his own arse and fast before this whole thing comes tumbling down. For me the only reason I want him to stay as boss right now is I don't trust the other pair of cunts who own us to get anyone decent.

 

Couldnt really argue with any of that

 

Yes the players do, but so primarily does the manager. The manager gets lauded, quite rightly, when the team pulls off a result such as Madrid. You cannot expect him to dodge all the bullets when the team put on such a poor display. And don't forget who bought those chumps playing for us.

 

or that.

[SpeedyG]

You say some people are ignorant but going by your first paragraph, one could easily say you are missing the point completely and didn't understand Barry's argument.

 

The point is, for the good of the club, the contracts of players should be viewed completely independent of the manager's contract situation. Regardless of whether a player is good or bad, we shouldn't lose the player on a bosman (especially if the player's realistic value is £6m or £7m), just because the manager's contract is not yet sorted. And it makes it horribly wrong when the manager himself is advising the player to wait for his contract until his own is sorted. It just happens that this time the player is Kuyt. What if it was Torres? Or Reina? Or Mascherano? It doesn't make the situation any better or worse if it was anyone other than Kuyt. The basic point remains the same, which is what Barry's argument is about.

 

Can of worms that. If we had gone down the DoF route then fair enough. But if someone other than Benitez is calling the shots on who should be in our squad for the next 5 years, who would it be? Hicks, Gillett, Moores?

[shaunstrudwick]

1. that is a lie

 

2. Gerrard is much, much better than Keane so why should he have to move our best player to accomodate someone who was blatently not good enough!

 

Keane was massively out of form for us but he is never the type of striker who can play up top by himself in the premier league

 

specificly i am thinking about the games when Torres was out injured and by and large Keane was expected to take over his mantle even though he is not that type of player

 

if playing Keane meant Kuyt was dropped then i would've been happy with that - that's just my own opinion

 

yes it seemed foolish to break up the Torres Gerrard partnership but Rafa got Keane in so at least try to accomodate effectively not be stubborn about it

 

whether Gerrard wants to play on the right wing or not he should've be made to play there to see if Keane as a second striker worked or not

 

it's just going to be the same if Rafa targets Aguero or Villa over Ribery - ideally we need both types of players and then Alonso and Masch can fight it out with Gerrard for the central mid spots

 

we need to improve 3 positions minimum as i see it: right back, 2nd striker, right winger

 

5 if you include better competition for left back and left wing

 

4-5-1 while it is the only way to accomodate the players we have is still a negative formation which Rafa needs to address IMHO

[SpeedyG]

So to use Vladi's analogy earlier in the thread. Rafa stalls on new deal, he moves in the summer and the value of Kuyt is suddenly a whole lot less than it would be should he get a new 4 year deal and opens the door for Rafa to do a cheap deal to a new club. It's pure madness and any attempt to say otherwise is blinkered. Kuyt is a Dutch international - we won't be saddled with him, plenty of clubs will be in for him should a new manager not fancy him. At what point is it in LFC's interests to get him almost to a Bosman? You want it to make sense because anything else means Rafa is guilty of gross misconduct and should be fired instantly.

 

While Rafa is stalling on a new contract and is not committed long term to LFC any contract negotiation he is involved with is tainted. It is a clear conflict of interests and is yet another example of why he shouldn't have 100% control of transfers and contracts.

 

I think getting 10m for Crouch showed that you can still do a good deal with only a year left. How much more would we get for Kuyt on a longer contract? A couple of million at most I would reckon. Compare that to committing the 20 million or whatever it is for a new long term deal. The latter could potentially be a far bigger mistake.

[Carra_is_legend]

Can of worms that. If we had gone down the DoF route then fair enough. But if someone other than Benitez is calling the shots on who should be in our squad for the next 5 years, who would it be? Hicks, Gillett, Moores?

 

You misunderstood my point or apologies if I didn't make it clear.

 

Let us look at it this way - Rafa only has 1 year left on his contract. Torres has 1 year left on his contract. Rafa's contract talks are going on and on and on and on. Should Torres wait until Rafa has signed his contract? Or with the best intersts of the club in mind, should we (when I say we, I mean everyone - Gillett, Hicks, Parry, Rafa) look to tie up Torres' contract regardless of whether Rafa signs his contract or not?

[23_Carra_Gold]

I think getting 10m for Crouch showed that you can still do a good deal with only a year left. How much more would we get for Kuyt on a longer contract? A couple of million at most I would reckon. Compare that to committing the 20 million or whatever it is for a new long term deal. The latter could potentially be a far bigger mistake.

 

That £10 million came from Harry Redknapp though. The same Harry Redknapp who spent £15 million on Robbie Keane. £17 million on Palacios.

[SpeedyG]

You misunderstood my point or apologies if I didn't make it clear.

 

Let us look at it this way - Rafa only has 1 year left on his contract. Torres has 1 year left on his contract. Rafa's contract talks are going on and on and on and on. Should Torres wait until Rafa has signed his contract? Or with the best intersts of the club in mind, should we (when I say we, I mean everyone - Gillett, Hicks, Parry, Rafa) look to tie up Torres' contract regardless of whether Rafa signs his contract or not?

 

I get what you mean, but I think the Kuyt case is different. There are only a few managers that would want that type of player, whereas everyone would want Torres. If a new manager comes in how likely is he to want a defensive striker LOL?

[DomL]

This place gets worse everyday what the fuck is Rafa meant to say its all over we have been shit we arnt going anywhere.

 

People say dont read the papers its bollocks yet when Rafa comes out and says something its his own true opinion. Give me a rest he is bullshitting to us all he knows generally football fans are simple, stupid however you want to say so he feels he can get away with it and most of the time he can.

 

Some people need to realise that Rafa is far more intelligent than you think and all he is doing is playing the media game, course he knows Kuyt has a poor touch, course he knows dossena has struggled with positioning and the general pace of the prem, these are factors that only can become apparent after you have signed them as they ply in totaly different leagues in totaly different systems, its the risk every manager takes with transfers.

 

Wether a player sees that another player is shit doesnt really give any credibility to any story i would never trust a player to be a good judge of a team mate or foreigner, nor manager mainly because their intelligence is rather low its why they are footballers and not working in a bank their gift has been placed in their feet.

 

All Rafa does is try and persuade us that everything is ok he does it to try and appease the anger that could be leveled at him but it can always back fire especially at this club because most of us know our stuff.

 

By the way Rafa also didnt lie about the game against middleborough we were in control and playing well in the first half an hour then we feel apart granted he didnt really acknowledge this but still he didnt lie at all.

 

Opinion is a powerful thing and its something that never deters us from thinking we are all right unfortunatly we are getting into a situation where passion is becoming even more intense through these opinions and i dont see how it will ever be resolved well maybe if Rafa leaves we get someone like oneil and people will realise just how shite that man is and Liverpool will crumble even further and then you know ATK will probably have his club back but one that is in ruins and i doubt would see the title glory for even longer than we currently have.

 

Its a sad day to be a liverpool when we are starting to hate our own.

[shaunstrudwick]

if Rafa out means Kuyt out I am ALL for that!!!

[Carra_is_legend]

I get what you mean, but I think the Kuyt case is different. There are only a few managers that would want that type of player, whereas everyone would want Torres. If a new manager comes in how likely is he to want a defensive striker LOL?

 

See my post above. It is not about Kuyt or Torres or anyone. It is about Rafa advising players to hold on until he has signed his own contract. And I think that is wrong. Very very wrong.

[Unrighteous]

See my post above. It is not about Kuyt or Torres or anyone. It is about Rafa advising players to hold on until he has signed his own contract. And I think that is wrong. Very very wrong.

 

Yup. It's criminal, really. If Rafa does go in the Summer and moves for Agger/Kuyt/anyone whos contract he wound down... there should be some legal grounds preventing this...

 

It'd be like Rafa selling Kuyt to his new club before he leaves, for a fraction of his value, really... then signing for that club as the new manager.

[SpeedyG]

See my post above. It is not about Kuyt or Torres or anyone. It is about Rafa advising players to hold on until he has signed his own contract. And I think that is wrong. Very very wrong.

 

Fair enough, I don't. If there is real doubt about who the manager is going to be then we need to hold off until we know for sure so that manager get's to choose his own players.

[SpeedyG]

Yup. It's criminal, really. If Rafa does go in the Summer and moves for Agger/Kuyt/anyone whos contract he wound down... there should be some legal grounds preventing this...

 

It'd be like Rafa selling Kuyt to his new club before he leaves, for a fraction of his value, really... then signing for that club as the new manager.

 

Don't knock it, that's the secret to my success on FM!

[Carra_is_legend]

Its a sad day to be a liverpool when we are starting to hate our own.

 

Hicks hates Parry.

Rafa hates Parry.

Parry hates Rafa and Hicks.

Hicks hates Gillett.

Gillett hates Hicks.

Moores hates Hicks because he loves his mate Rick.

Moores hates Hicks because he knows Gillett loves his mate Rick.

Moores hates Hicks because he knows Hicks likes Rafa who hates his mate Rick.

Gillett hates Ayre.

Parry hates Ayre because Gillett hates Ayre.

Hicks loves Ayre because he knows Gillett and Parry hates Ayre.

Moores still doesn't really know who Ayre is.

 

Apart from that, you are spot on. ;)

[Tom R]

So you dont rate Kuyt, you want a new manager in who doesnt play him all the time but you want to give him £20m for doing nothing

 

Are you in the Cabinet?

 

Did you approve Fred's pension?

 

For the record, Fred Goodwin thoroughly deserves his pension.

 

RBS announced record profits of over £21 billion last year, and in almost every year prior to this one the results were similar.

Him having one bad year, which was not even exclusively his fault, doesn't mean the poor bastard should be stripped of his retirement.

[robslappa]

Re. Kuyt. It wouldn't surprise me if he was doing it so he can take his blue eyed boy with him for peanuts when/if he fucks off in the Summer.

 

As for your final point I'm pretty much of the same opinion, the worrying thing for me is that I reckon it's out of our hands anyway and he's had no intention of signing the contract for a while now.

 

Every cloud has its silver lining.

[DomL]

Hicks hates Parry.

Rafa hates Parry.

Parry hates Rafa and Hicks.

Hicks hates Gillett.

Gillett hates Hicks.

Moores hates Hicks because he loves his mate Rick.

Moores hates Hicks because he knows Gillett loves his mate Rick.

Moores hates Hicks because he knows Hicks likes Rafa who hates his mate Rick.

Gillett hates Ayre.

Parry hates Ayre because Gillett hates Ayre.

Hicks loves Ayre because he knows Gillett and Parry hates Ayre.

Moores still doesn't really know who Ayre is.

 

Apart from that, you are spot on. ;)

 

lol reading that makes me laugh we are so fucked up its un true how the fuck is Rafa meant to operate in a football club like its is laughable.

 

I also find it funny that so many people think another manager would come to a club with all that, Rafa really should go because he deserves a football club with a vision and ounce of footballing brain behind it.

[Barrington Womble]

You say some people are ignorant but going by your first paragraph, one could easily say you are missing the point completely and didn't understand Barry's argument.

 

The point is, for the good of the club, the contracts of players should be viewed completely independent of the manager's contract situation. Regardless of whether a player is good or bad, we shouldn't lose the player on a bosman (especially if the player's realistic value is £6m or £7m), just because the manager's contract is not yet sorted. And it makes it horribly wrong when the manager himself is advising the player to wait for his contract until his own is sorted. It just happens that this time the player is Kuyt. What if it was Torres? Or Reina? Or Mascherano? It doesn't make the situation any better or worse if it was anyone other than Kuyt. The basic point remains the same, which is what Barry's argument is about.

 

spot on mate, that was exactly the point I'm trying to make - I'm not saying Kuyt should play every week, he should have a 10 year contract or 5, but if we're holding back because of non-footballing reasons of another employee, it's just bad business.

 

I think getting 10m for Crouch showed that you can still do a good deal with only a year left. How much more would we get for Kuyt on a longer contract? A couple of million at most I would reckon. Compare that to committing the 20 million or whatever it is for a new long term deal. The latter could potentially be a far bigger mistake.

 

£10m at a time when Everton paid £15m for Felaini and City £18m for Jo, so £10m doesn't seem that great to me, just alright for a player with 12 months left. We only got as much as we did because Redknapp is mental and Crouch wanted the move so made it work - what if he'd said, fuck it, I don't want to go to Portsmouth, I'll kick my heels for 12 months? Go back to Rafa's 1st summer, I don't think many would argue the £8m we got for Owen was a shit price, in fact the money paid 12 months later by Newcastle would prove it cost us. This would only be a risk if Kuyt was a pure bag of shite not a dutch international with plenty of CL goals behind him - offering a player like Le Tallec another 4 years would be a risk, Kuyt no chance, we'd do more than OK from the deal.

[GRADY]

Gerrard can play centre mid, I dont think he can play it alongside Alonso though. I think the point behind Keane is that it was the timing! the right offer for us, the right club for Keane and it happened. Had Tottenham offered 10 million I dont think he would have gone.

In all the time he was here he offered very little, and once again he was played off the striker that is a totale lie, and why does Keane get special treatment! Why not give Dossena a run? what about Lucas? Riera came from Spain and settled in quicker than a player who was playing in the premiership!!

 

How many times did Keane and torres play 70-75 minutes together as forwards during the time Keane was at the club? I would be interested to know.

 

I think what you say about the timing in relation to the sale is probably right but we are weaker as a team as a result going into the second half of the season.Why not sell dossena aswell then? Surely an italian club would have paid similar to what we paid and he had no better a start than Keane and we are more covered at left back.

 

You also say riera settled in better. he started ok but am I the only one thinking he is not going to make the grade at Liverpool either? He has been poor for months now.

 

An I also agree with you regarding a run of games. If we are going to give someone a chance play them consecutively for a run of games. If they are consistently not good enough after a few runs of games then get rid.

 

Rather than our current system of players coming in for odd games here or there and being left out when in good form therefore having a negative impact on their confidence.

 

Aurellio was playing well and then left out recently, same for benayoun. 2 of our better players recently in my opinion.

 

Keane scored a couple of goals in a week at anfield an then was left out for kuyt against newcastle. An please dont give that as a reason why we beat them.

[AL66GOLF]

lol reading that makes me laugh we are so fucked up its un true how the fuck is Rafa meant to operate in a football club like its is laughable.

 

I also find it funny that so many people think another manager would come to a club with all that, Rafa really should go because he deserves a football club with a vision and ounce of footballing brain behind it.

 

Why?

[shaunstrudwick]

if the owners do not change in the summer there is no point with Rafa fucking off - cos as you rightly say how can anyone operate effectively in our mad house

 

if the owners do change then i would give him another season with a decent budget to spend how he wants - if that means £30m each on Aguero and Ribery then back him to make it happen

 

that is what i want

 

if he is given carte blanch and still spends £60m on 6 average players then we will know that he just doesn't get it and will have to be sacked

[SpeedyG]

spot on mate, that was exactly the point I'm trying to make - I'm not saying Kuyt should play every week, he should have a 10 year contract or 5, but if we're holding back because of non-footballing reasons of another employee, it's just bad business.

 

 

 

£10m at a time when Everton paid £15m for Felaini and City £18m for Jo, so £10m doesn't seem that great to me, just alright for a player with 12 months left. We only got as much as we did because Redknapp is mental and Crouch wanted the move so made it work - what if he'd said, fuck it, I don't want to go to Portsmouth, I'll kick my heels for 12 months? Go back to Rafa's 1st summer, I don't think many would argue the £8m we got for Owen was a shit price, in fact the money paid 12 months later by Newcastle would prove it cost us. This would only be a risk if Kuyt was a pure bag of shite not a dutch international with plenty of CL goals behind him - offering a player like Le Tallec another 4 years would be a risk, Kuyt no chance, we'd do more than OK from the deal.

 

I still think the difference for Kuyt would only be a couple of million and that's not worth tying a new managers hands over IMO.

[DomL]

Why?

 

Well because in my opinion he deserves it hes is a great coach that could do wonders with many teams in the top four of five of any league in europe or the world.

 

Rafa is trying his best to develop a football culture from top to bottom granted he wnats it be his but at least their would be one but we have owners and ceo's and whoever else who havent got a fucking clue what he is going on about because they know fuck all about football.

 

If Rafa took over the likes of Real Barca etc they would win everything maybe not in the style that have become uccustomed to but they would still play very good football and win the lot.

 

Rafa is a man that would be brilliant for us when we are truly ready to go on the assault again he is a man that would simply add his footballing knowledge to a team that needs it, he would romp away with many things if he were at chelsea.

 

Rafa maybe needed us as much as we needed him to develop as a manager, he has made many mistakes but also created huge successes. He himself will develop his ideas and his knowledge of the game unfortunatly we are maybe the wrong club for this as many want success right away and not a formula for long term success which i feel Rafa is trying to find but it is extremely difficult.