The real reason why we will not win the league

[Benitaur]

Parry is an easy target for fans. Do you think he never had any control when he bought Reina, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Agger, Aurelio, Lucas, Xabi, Riera, Pennant, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin, Degen, Ngog etc?

 

As WaltonRed pointed above mate, no offence but it is just complete and utter bollocks.

 

If Rafa never had any control, do you think he would have kept his mouth shut?

 

You may like Rafa and you may choose to defend him. That is fine by me but please don't say that Rafa never had any control over transfers. As a club, we have ALWAYS supported the manager.

 

My stockbrokers illustration probably went over your head eh? It means that while we had a budget of say 20 mil, there was NO chance Parry would agree to spend it all on one player. Rafa would be able to buy 4 5 million players though. Thats the mentality of an accountant.

 

This bullshit again.

 

When Rafa was complaining about it last time he had the nerve to mention Rio Ferdinand, in fact he hugely inflated the cokehead's fee (didn't he use Euros for his whinge?).

 

But taking the same position and our own decade we've had

 

Henchoz

Hyypia

Babbel

Carragher

Agger

Skrtel

 

who together cost about 20m.

 

Now who's got the nerve to say Ferdinand matches up to all those players (and, say, Vidic) combined?

 

It's called "being smart with the money you've got".

 

Funny though where the expertise of our two managers this decade has been.

 

Heskey Diouf Cisse Kuyt Morientes Bellamy Keane. Oh, and Torres - woo-hooooo!

 

We have to be smarter than them right throughout the team, and we haven't been.

 

Ahem, even today, you ask anyone not a Liverpool fan, EVERYONE will tell you Ferdinand and Vidic is rated higher than all our former defenders you mentioned in whatever combination you want. Besides Agger and Skrtel who still are fighting for their places, the other older players you mentioned all have a weakness. Ferdinand and Vidic are regarded as "complete" players, ie they have everything you would want in a defender.

 

If you ask me, I would rather have the cokehead and Vidic than rebuilding our CB partnership over and over again.

 

As for strikers, for many years our most expensive striker was a 10 million pound Heskey, then Diouf, then Cisse. BUT were they anywhere near our then world class Owen? No. Its only when we finally can blow 26 million on an untested Torres that we finally have a world class striker to replace Owen.

 

Its all about the money. 5-20 million buys are hit and miss. Not just Rafa, but every other top manager out there have the same odds. At close to 30 million you are already buying players at the top of their game, and even then Veron and Shevchenko were horrible for the Mancs and Chelsea respectively.

 

I don't know why everyone is slagging Rafa off for his transfers. I would like to see which manager has a better transfer record. I reckon its average, but Rafa's strength is he manages to sell his flops for minimal loss (bar Keane, Morientes and Garcia). If I was the owner, I would value this.

 

"Being smart with the money you've got" is fine I suppose, if you don't expect to win the league.

 

Parry is an easy target for fans. Do you think he never had any control when he bought Reina, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Agger, Aurelio, Lucas, Xabi, Riera, Pennant, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin, Degen, Ngog

 

Ok lets go through your list. This is what I remember from the rumours in the papers around the time we got them.

 

Absolutely first choices that Rafa wanted:

Reina, Xabi

 

Not sure, might be first choice (ie can't remember if linked to anyone else at time):

Kuyt

Skrtel - was bought because Agger was injured long term. Not sure if intended to buy him if Agger didn't get injured.

 

Didn't get first choice and was alternative:

Arbeloa - we were linked to Rafinha

Agger - originally linked to Vidic

Riera - was linked to Barry

Pennant - was linked to Alves

 

Young and available, probably KIV for some time:

Babel, Lucas, Ngog

 

Free and available:

Aurelio, Voronin, Degen

 

So sure, Rafa did have them on some list. But absolute first choice bought are Xabi, Reina and possibly Kuyt. Missing from your list, but very likely first choice is Mascherano. Torres... possibly but I remember being linked to Eto'o too.

 

Not first choice: Arbeloa, Agger, Riera, Pennant and possibly Skrtel (if Vidic was bought)

 

The rest were youngsters and free transfers. Both categories are risks, and if fail will sell for more than bought.

 

Ravaged by injuries this term? Come on mate, that is just not true. Only Torres has missed a huge chunk of the season but if we rely on Torres alone to win a title, god help us.

 

What I meant was, we keep passing the ball sideways and look to "control" the game in every single game - week in week out. Thats what I meant by "when the fans can see it why not the manager". I guess the manager doesn't see it because that is the way he wants us to play. Like a machine, like a robot. When the opposition does something unusual, the machine doesn't have an answer.

 

So you prefer the back and forth football, you score one I score two the way the lower teams play?

 

There is nothing wrong with controlled football. You just need quality to open up the defense. We don't have that in wide areas. Riera has shown glimpses but not enough.

 

The machine doesn't have an answer because the answer is MORE QUALITY, or hope the opposition slips up. You need a Ronaldo or Messi type player, who can open up defenses. Thats how the Mancs do it. Thats how Brasil and Argentina and Spain does it. Thats how Arsenal used to do it (they're as bad as us currently). Thats how Chelsea do it.

 

And how much do such players cost? Answer again is money.

[The 5th Benitel]

It is. Parry is a fucking clown for not playing Lucas behind Torres - even though Lucas is shit. Parry should have never bought Babel even though Rafa himself said he has followed Babel's career since he was a kid. Parry should have never sold Crouch. Parry shoud have never ever bought Kuyt. Parry should never play Kuyt on the right. Parry should have never bought Keane. Parry should have never sold Keane without a replacement. Parry should have made the team play better football - especially against Stoke, Fulham, West ham, Wigan and Boro. Parry should have given huge wage to the players so we would be no.1 in the wage list in the country and we would have challenged for the title.

 

It is all Parry's fault. Had Parry listened to Rafa, Rafa would have brought 5 youngsters through to the first team instead of NONE, Rafa would have had us playing like 1970 Brazilian team, Rafa would have won 3 titles in a row.

 

I fucking despair at times. I don't know what these fans will do when Parry leaves in the summer. But then, I guess Ian Ayre (or whoever the CEO is) will be the next cunt and the next useless guy stopping Rafa from making us the champions again.

 

That's bang on. People are now at a point where they're desperately searching for things to defend Benitez with. They need to remember that we haven't found ourselves out of the title race in Feb cos of games against the mancs or Chelsea, it's been games against teams who have an entire budget similar to what we spend on one player.

 

We're not competing again cos the manager still hasn't got a clue how to challenge in this league. He still thinks you can rest your in form attacker when your best forward is out and your best player is half fit cos you're playing a team in the relegation zone. He'd still rather sit on a point than go for all three. He'd still rather play with just 4 attackers and have one of them focus more on defending. Parry, the yanks, the london based press or even the freemasons had nothing to do with that. It was all down to one man and people need to wake up to that fact before we really do start to go backwards.

[coachpotato]

I'm not defending Rafa when I say this by the way!!

A simple rule of thumb for me is, how many £20M players (and I mean players valued at that) do you have in your squad? The more there are, the more likely you are to be successful.

It's become a fact of life.

We can't afford to go out and buy £20M players because we're skint through a combination of bad ownership recently and corporate laziness throughout our most successful period.

How do you get players worth £20M without buying them outright?

Through spotting talent early when they're cheaper or bringing them through your own academy system.

On either score we've been dismal, probably because of the politicking going on inside the club.

How long would a youngster last in our first team though if he didn't produce straight away?

 

Unless we turn around our revenue situation pronto, we're going to be set for years of mediocrity because eventually no decent player will want to play for us.

 

It's sad to say it, but we need new owners soon and with plenty of cash.

 

Football became a business many, many years ago and we haven't moved with that fast enough.

[Royal Family]

A good article by Ollie Kay which highlights the manifold failings of Rick Parry, although Moores shouldn't be exempt. This is the man who publicly proclaimed we would leave Anfield "over my dead body" and thus we simply didn't investigate the options available in the late 90s.

 

BUT you can moan as much as you like about transfer budgets and wage bills. The fact remains that EVERY Premiership club has to use its budget widely - whether it's £50m a season or £5m a season. You have to buy wisely. United can afford to spend big money on players and it doesn't matter if that turns out to be wasted money. We cannot. And the fact remains that Rafa spent £40m last summer - £40m, which the vast majority of premiership clubs would die for. And, as Tony B points out today, not a single penny of that was on display in the starting line-up on Saturday afternoon. If you don't use your resources wisely and sensibly, whatever club you are, you can't prosper.

 

This isn't to say we should be competing with United. Only to say that budgets are only part of the story - it's how that budget is directed that matters most. And in my view that's a masisve indictment of rafa, as it was of Houllier, but also a massive indictment of our scouting network and the culture of Liverpool FC.

[3 Colours Red]

This season we have been far too cautious with 10 draws. If we had really gone for the win and as a result won 5 and lost 5 we would still have ended up with 5 more points. It comes down to the manager not wanting to lose more than wanting to win.

[JMARKH]

And what if the players coming through the ranks aren't good enough? What if a promising youngster doesn't fullfill the potential?

 

I remember watching a show on the FA's school of excellance, and the only kid that made it was Alan Smith. And he was a bit part player. All the others were the top kids of their time, and not one of them made it to either of top divisions.

 

Well Insua has proven better than Dossena and I felt he looked like he was ready last season and it has proved to be the case, Lucas well surely Spearing can't be any worse as he contributes nothing and has cost us in games, could Darby be a worse bet then the ever injured Degan so that is 15 million straight away, add up all the other kids Rafa has signed and you are talking up to 30 Million or maybe more. That could have been spent on a world class match winner who could have made the difference in the games we have struggled, not too mention some of the rubbish buys he has made for the first team. I am not saying we could have won the league but we could be a lot more competitive and after 5 years the squad and team could have been stronger and there is no excuse for the insipid displays we have witnessed this season. Rafa has lost his way and needs to go before it is too late.

[The 5th Benitel]

 

So you prefer the back and forth football, you score one I score two the way the lower teams play?

 

There is nothing wrong with controlled football. You just need quality to open up the defense. We don't have that in wide areas. Riera has shown glimpses but not enough.

 

The machine doesn't have an answer because the answer is MORE QUALITY, or hope the opposition slips up. You need a Ronaldo or Messi type player, who can open up defenses. Thats how the Mancs do it. Thats how Brasil and Argentina and Spain does it. Thats how Arsenal used to do it (they're as bad as us currently). Thats how Chelsea do it.

 

And how much do such players cost? Answer again is money.

 

 

Controlled football is fine as long as you except when it hasn't worked and you hand over to your players and have confidence they have the ability to turn 1 point into 3, especially against weaker teams. Taggert and Mourinho had that, Benitez hasn't.

 

And you have to bear in mind that we haven't lost this league to teams who have a massive financial advantage over us. It's been against Fulham, West Ham, Stoke, Boro etc. Teams with a fraction of our budget. These are the worst Chelsea and Arsenal teams we've faced and with the mancs slowish start we had a chance of at least challenging. We're not cos the manager still hasn't worked out what you need to do to win this league and he probably never will.

 

If you accept that Babel is a winger, and he has to be cos out there he has a chance of finding the 10 yards space he needs to control the ball,then Benitez willingly went into the 2nd half of our first title push for years having spent more on defensive midfielders than he had on the forwards in our squad. It's that mentality that means we will draw loads of games and never win the league.

 

I'm under no illusion that money has a big impact in our games but people need to accept the truth that it's not money that's cost us our first oppotunity to challenge in years, it's the manager. Until we all accept it we're gonna be going round in circles for years.

[JohnnyH]

Well Insua has proven better than Dossena and I felt he looked like he was ready last season and it has proved to be the case, Lucas well surely Spearing can't be any worse as he contributes nothing and has cost us in games, could Darby be a worse bet then the ever injured Degan so that is 15 million straight away, add up all the other kids Rafa has signed and you are talking up to 30 Million or maybe more. That could have been spent on a world class match winner who could have made the difference in the games we have struggled, not too mention some of the rubbish buys he has made for the first team. I am not saying we could have won the league but we could be a lot more competitive and after 5 years the squad and team could have been stronger and there is no excuse for the insipid displays we have witnessed this season. Rafa has lost his way and needs to go before it is too late.

 

You were saying spend wisely or bring though kids to make us league champions. It's not as easy as that. When we bought Lucas he was Brazilian player of the year. It looked a great buy I was also delighted when we bought Babel as he'd looked superb that summer in the Youth World Cup (Or was it European Championships?) Insua looked good and was geting his before he fecked off the Argentina.

 

Ferguson wasted over £30m on Nani and Anderson. Thus why Ferguson mainly just spends big on proven top players. We, for the most part, can't do that and have to take risks.

 

Look at Pongolle and LaTallec. Ferguson actually wrote to Houllier to congratulate him on getting them! Pongolle now is forging a bit of a career in Spain with the next level after the big 2 and LaTallec has vanished.

[Carra_is_legend]

Benitaur, I don't want to respond to your post in detail because I think we agree to disagree on whether Rafa was supported or not.

 

I acknowledge and accept some of your points but on the whole, in my opinion, Rafa Benitez has been supported extensively during his time at LFC.

[The 5th Benitel]

People also need to realise that he was brought in cos he won the league with Valencia under simialr circumstances with Barca and Real. However, his tactics and mentality will not win us the league over here so how long do we continue to stand still before we accept it and move on?

[t1971]

How many times have we played well this season, as a team, in the league? We can possibly count that with one hand. Regardless of Parry or the owners or whoever, that is poor. Piss poor.

 

We havent really played well all season, and i mean we havent hit a period of good form. We have had some good results no doubt but havent got on a good run yet. When we were top of the league up to xmas time, we werent even really playing well. My thinking at the time was we are not playing well, but nor are our rivals, so we are going to be a great position for when we do hit form. Doesnt look like that form is going to come now, which is very disappointing cos we usually do have a good run in the league under Rafa, but are usually undone by results against the main rivals. A complete balls up of a transfer window (or possibly 2?) hasnt helped us push on from last year. We are goal shy and very short of strikers and again we are drawing far too many games, as well as failing to beat the shittier teams in the league.

[Dublin Red]

Dossena, Lucas, Babel, Kuyt and Ngog

 

This lot cost around £36m and yet not one of them would get within an ass's roar of Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or The Emirates but are somehow deemed good enough for LFC by our manager and his scouts.

 

This is why we wont win the league under Rafa

[goatboy59]

"Being smart with the money you've got" is fine I suppose, if you don't expect to win the league.

Go head to head with their first choice team against ours.

 

Van Der Sar v Reina, Neville v Arbeloa, Evra v Dossena (oh, I forgot - he's not first-choice is he?) and so forth.

 

They spent more in maybe 3-4 positions?

 

Emphasis on cash excuses Rafa's failings with the cash he's already been given and conveniently ignores how these things work.

 

Ferguson turned things around by buying Schmeichel (instead of say James) and Cantona (instead of say Saunders or Clough) and bringing through Giggs Scholes Beckham (which we could actually match).

 

Are we now saying that plays no part in the game any more? Sorry, that's nonsense.

 

There's also the matter of HOW teams play, and if you want to ask your precious EVERYONE which team they'd rather watch and get back to me, do so. There's also a clear problem with fitness, which again comes back to the manager.

 

We will never match United for spending, or Chelsea, so Rafa may as well fuck off to City or Madrid if that's his own outlook.

[JMARKH]

You were saying spend wisely or bring though kids to make us league champions. It's not as easy as that. When we bought Lucas he was Brazilian player of the year. It looked a great buy I was also delighted when we bought Babel as he'd looked superb that summer in the Youth World Cup (Or was it European Championships?) Insua looked good and was geting his before he fecked off the Argentina.

 

Ferguson wasted over £30m on Nani and Anderson. Thus why Ferguson mainly just spends big on proven top players. We, for the most part, can't do that and have to take risks.

 

Look at Pongolle and LaTallec. Ferguson actually wrote to Houllier to congratulate him on getting them! Pongolle now is forging a bit of a career in Spain with the next level after the big 2 and LaTallec has vanished.

 

It is not easy at all and there is the odd gamble we have to take but the scatter gun approach is ludicrous as for one it damages morale of those at Kirby and two is flushes money down the toilet.

 

United have got a bigger budget and it is harder but I am of the belief we can still challenge but we have to things almost perfect as Rafa said himself and at the moment I would say that means shifting out all the deadwood, streamlining the squad and getting the correct players in the summer for the 1st team.

I would also next season in the carling cup give chances to the likes of Pacheco, Darby, Spearing, Nemeth, Kelly, Irwin, Hamill e.t.c so they have a taste of first team action and can be called upon in emergency if needed and maybe be bought on as well to be guided by the likes of Carragher and Gerrard if we have a situation like we did at Newcastle when game is won, just as Ferguson is doing and it paid dividends as they won Carling cup and now have players ready for first team, meaning he can use them as squad players.

I feel this would be the correct way to do things and hopefully with Parry gone the communication will improve between all concerned at Melwood and Kirby.

As for Babel I was happy when we got him and thought he would really kick on this season but he looks a player devoid of any confidence and I think if we get a decent offer we should get rid.

[Stu Monty]

Spot on that mate, that article in no way pulls the wool over my eyes regarding the complete hash of it Rafa has made in the premier league. If he hasn't got the ability to compete get someone in who can.

 

And just keep changing till we find the man who can force out a team that cashes an extra £1.5m a game at the gates and has had 20 years of work put into them.

 

You think that is rational thinking?

 

Our fans have delusions of granduer. Our expectations of what is realistic are broken.

[Dublin Red]

Dossena, Lucas, Babel, Kuyt and Ngog

 

This lot cost around £36m and yet not one of them would get within an ass's roar of Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or The Emirates but are somehow deemed good enough for LFC by our manager and his scouts.

 

This is why we wont win the league under Rafa

[JMARKH]

And just keep changing till we find the man who can force out a team that cashes an extra £1.5m a game at the gates and has had 20 years of work put into them.

 

You think that is rational thinking?

 

Our fans have delusions of granduer. Our expectations of what is realistic are broken.

 

it is in the post above this one I am replying to, it is not all about money.

[Catch22]

Go head to head with their first choice team against ours.

 

Van Der Sar v Reina, Neville v Arbeloa, Evra v Dossena (oh, I forgot - he's not first-choice is he?) and so forth.

 

They spent more in maybe 3-4 positions?

 

Emphasis on cash excuses Rafa's failings with the cash he's already been given and conveniently ignores how these things work.

 

Ferguson turned things around by buying Schmeichel (instead of say James) and Cantona (instead of say Saunders or Clough) and bringing through Giggs Scholes Beckham (which we could actually match).

 

Are we now saying that plays no part in the game any more? Sorry, that's nonsense.

 

There's also the matter of HOW teams play, and if you want to ask your precious EVERYONE which team they'd rather watch and get back to me, do so. There's also a clear problem with fitness, which again comes back to the manager.

 

We will never match United for spending, or Chelsea, so Rafa may as well fuck off to City or Madrid if that's his own outlook.

 

 

5 of what i consider the Mancs 1st team (Evra,Rio,Vidic,LadyBoy,Tevez) were scouted, wanted & approached by us whether under Rafa or GH. All chose the Mancs as they paid them or their prior club more money.

All would walk into our present side so our scouts got it right

2 more (Berb & Carrick) were the best available player Spurs had to sell at the time. We could not afford either.

Rooney is a superb player who even aside form the BS angle was complately out of our price range.

 

8 1st team players, 5 of which we actually wanted, all of whom would get in our side & all of whom we could not afford even with the gift of hindsight

[Stu Monty]

it is in the post above this one I am replying to, it is not all about money.

 

No, it's not, but trying to catch someone with 20 years of prep time over you and who has a greater depth of resource is an unrealistic expectation. The if you do manage to do that you have to hope that the team that spashed half a billion in a couple of years slip up too if you want the title.

 

If someone were to manage it then they would have pulled of something truly remarkable and also had lorryloads of luck.

[JMARKH]

No, it's not, but trying to catch someone with 20 years of prep time over you and who has a greater depth of resource is an unrealistic expectation. The if you do manage to do that you have to hope that the team that spashed half a billion in a couple of years slip up too if you want the title.

 

If someone were to manage it then they would have pulled of something truly remarkable and also had lorryloads of luck.

 

It will be very hard but I believe it can be done given time and if Rafa was progressing I would say give him more time but some of the performances this season have showed no progress, we performed better domestically 05/06 in my opinion and have got worse each season, especially at Anfield.

[INTORRESTING]

cant some grasp that we were miles behind and the others were still improving? So it will take us longer to win the title. Do some expect united with their experience and money to surrender their title. I think some of our fans are very unrealistic and obviously think our players are better than they are. Being honest and looking at the squads, united are miles ahead as are chelsea. No one seems to want to give our kids the chance to become squad players, they get written off after one half and that is because we are desperate as united are going to equal our titles which they deserve to as they are a properly run club.

 

To have done so well in the league and still doing well in europe even with all the shit that has gone on is a good achievement.

[INTORRESTING]

It will be very hard but I believe it can be done given time and if Rafa was progressing I would say give him more time but some of the performances this season have showed no progress, we performed better domestically 05/06 in my opinion and have got worse each season, especially at Anfield.

 

We certainly haven't coped with the park the bus routine or even just playing against lesser sides who are more unpredictable as rafa may not have an answer to what a lesser side may do as they are usually struggling so rafa is probably not aware as to exactly what some of the players in lesser teams can actually do!

 

Also if rafa has not given the input for a certain situations the players sometimes do not know how to react and i think we have to get away from being robotlike in the league and get a couple more with some expression. Players like ribery and aguero.

 

However if we had gerrard and torres fit and firing all season i think we would be up there. We need another 2 like them but that is going to need 40-60 million.

 

We are pretty close we just need to take our chances and need some better players imo

[redrosetints]

You can defend Rafa. I just don't think he's got any excuses. OK, he's not had the same budgets as the Mancs or Chelsea, but he's wasted a shitload on absolute crap.

 

How much money has he spent on strikers alone? How much on attacking players? Most have been shipped out and we're back to square one again. He is either a shit judge of attacking players or has some really bad advisors in terms of our scouting.

 

Just to put things into persective, Santa Cruz cost Blackburn a grand total of £3.5m.

 

All managhers waste money, it comes with the territory. United and Chelsea can afford to buy Veron or a Schevchenko and not let it affect them.

 

Until we can, we can't competet.

[goatboy59]

5 of what i consider the Mancs 1st team (Evra,Rio,Vidic,LadyBoy,Tevez) were scouted, wanted & approached by us whether under Rafa or GH. All chose the Mancs as they paid them or their prior club more money.

All would walk into our present side so our scouts got it right

2 more (Berb & Carrick) were the best available player Spurs had to sell at the time. We could not afford either.

Rooney is a superb player who even aside form the BS angle was complately out of our price range.

 

8 1st team players, 5 of which we actually wanted, all of whom would get in our side & all of whom we could not afford even with the gift of hindsight

Well massaged!

[JMARKH]

cant some grasp that we were miles behind and the others were still improving? So it will take us longer to win the title. Do some expect united with their experience and money to surrender their title. I think some of our fans are very unrealistic and obviously think our players are better than they are. Being honest and looking at the squads, united are miles ahead as are chelsea. No one seems to want to give our kids the chance to become squad players, they get written off after one half and that is because we are desperate as united are going to equal our titles which they deserve to as they are a properly run club.

 

To have done so well in the league and still doing well in europe even with all the shit that has gone on is a good achievement.

 

We were miles behind when Rafa took over and I don't think we are improving, bar a handful of games we have looked poor.