Was Roy Evans That Bad A Manager?

[JohnnyH]

I agree with you 99%, I would say we had arguably the best squad in the country wasted by a totally inept manager. People may or may not agree but it has been my belief for a number of years that a proper manager with that squad would have won the league.

 

He got them playing very nice football and all that but when it mattered they shit out as in the F.A Cup Final and the Cup Winners Cup Semi.

 

That squad with a Hamann or Mascherano would have won the league plenty of times. We just missed that ball winning midfielder.

[Catch22]

That squad with a Hamann or Mascherano would have won the league plenty of times. We just missed that ball winning midfielder.

 

 

We still would have had James vs Schmecial in goal which must have been worth 15 points per season

[23CARRAGOLD]

That squad with a Hamann or Mascherano would have won the league plenty of times. We just missed that ball winning midfielder.

 

I hated Ince but that was why Evo went out and bought him. No excuses Evans was a terrible manager, that was my point nothing else.

[Red Mist]

I agree with you 99%, I would say we had arguably the best squad in the country wasted by a totally inept manager. People may or may not agree but it has been my belief for a number of years that a proper manager with that squad would have won the league.

 

He got them playing very nice football and all that but when it mattered they shit out as in the F.A Cup Final and the Cup Winners Cup Semi.

Don't remind me of our European 'adventures' with Evans. Getting knocked out year after year by the likes of Brondby and some shit French teams whose names I honestly cannot remember (one was PSG, who was the other one???)... horrible memories.

[Catch22]

Don't remind me of our European 'adventures' with Evans. Getting knocked out year after year by the likes of Brondby and some shit French teams whose names I honestly cannot remember (one was PSG, who was the other one???)... horrible memories.

 

 

Strasborg, another 3-0 away in France 7/8 months after the 1 in Paris

[Red Mist]

Strasborg, another 3-0 away in France 7/8 months after the 1 in Paris

That's the one, who the hell are they?!? We had become a joke in Europe in those days, the once mighty rulers of Europe being knocked out by the likes of Brondby and Strasborg.

Whatever criticism I may have of Rafa, I'm eternally grateful he's restored us as a team genuinely feared throughout the continent, just like in the old days.

The only thing that mug David Moores ever got right was appointing Rafa as manager. Thank god for that.

[Dicko]

I think with Roy you've got to remember the position he took over from, was probably the worst (player wise) since any manager since December 1959. That Roy got that mess left to him by Souness, into any semblance of a top team in four years is an achievement in itself.

 

He was helped enormously by the young players emerging around him, and to his credit on the pitch at least, he developed a system in which they could flourish.

 

Up until the Cup Final in 96 most Liverpool fans were reasonably happy, they realised they had a young emerging team who on their day were the best in the land. It was just a matter of coaxing it to a level of consistency into that of champions. I thought, so did my dad that; that would come naturally with age and more experience. Sadly this was not to be.

 

Before the Cup final if you are old enough, you'll remember the story's of LFC players out & about in town, indeed there's Jamie Redknapp quotes in the booklet for the first Cream mix compilation (Cream Live) released 01/03/94.

Tales about how absolutely rotten they would get (especially Ruddock) were laughed at and the fans turned a blind eye to it.

 

The Cup Final was a disaster and one of the lowest moments I can remember supporting the club. UTD were beaten before they even got to Wembley, their fans who were right up for it during the match were preparing for defeat for weeks in advance. We knew and more importantly they knew we had their number. If Liverpool attacked UTD, they would fall. We'd played them off the park twice already, more of the same please Roy.

What we got was a team & manager who'd lost their nerve. Had we been beaten by a flukey goal after pummelling them, the fans would have understood, but to be beaten after employing tactics purely to stifle them and win by the odd goal was criminal especially when we'd provided a masterclass in how to stop UTD in our previous encounters. It was not the white suits, or the Spice Boy image that a lot of Liverpool fans dwelled on that night it was how the manager & team responded to pressure of a big match, the pressure of being favourites (and make no mistake we were), despite the league position. In that defeat, real doubts about Roy Evans were sown, and the culture of fans turning a blind eye to these overpaid wasters indiscretions was also at an end.

 

To me Roy's biggest failures wasn't the lack of discipline, it was his capitulation to the senior players, and his treatment of three players.

1) Patrik Berger

2) Brad Friedel

3) Michael Thomas

 

Patrik Berger was a fine player though slightly inconsistent and frustrating, but he was always a threat, and was better in the 442 system we later adopted on the left than if I remember right Jason Mcateer. Roy's refusal to play him was a huge error of judgment, as was his playing him out of position against Middlesborough in the League Cup, and his subsequent scapegoating of him for the defeat.

 

David James is a cunt. There I've said it. Inconsistent, poor judgment and his worst trait absolutely no fucking concentration whatsoever. That's before I even mention the fact he has an attention span of a 18 month old baby. But, he was a naturally gifted shot stopper. David James made mistake after mistake after mistake for Liverpool after the 96 cup final. So many mistakes that Roy ultimately was forced to buy a replacement. Which he did in Brad Friedel. Brad Friedel was eventually signed by us after protracted work permit negotiations, and proved himself to be a competent, consistent if unspectacular goalkeeper. He's since proved himself to a truly fine & outstanding keeper at Blackburn. Brad Friedel made one mistake against UTD parrying a shot by Paul Scholes only for a Utd player to score the rebound we lost 1-0. James regained the top spot, played consistently well for about ten games before reverting to type.

Why is he cunt you ask? in his autobiography he slated Roy Evans. Well in my book a man that gives you chance after chance and shows you infinite fucking patience even at the expense of a far more professional keeper deserves your gratitude not your contempt.

 

Michael Thomas. The single worst thing about Roy was his treatment of Michael Thomas. Michael Thomas should have been the first name on the team sheet every fucking week. Thomas +1 should have been the midfield, Thomas + Barnes = fine, great nothing wrong with that. Thomas + Redknapp (when fit) = even better. Barnes + Redknapp = finishing fourth in a two horse race. We threw away the league that season because we brought back the injured Redknapp to replace Michael Thomas, when it should have been for John Barnes, or not to have brought him back in the first team and used him as substitute. The most catastrophic errors of judgment by a Liverpool manager maybe quite a list, but for me this ranks at the top, it was actually easier to win the title that season had roy kept the same team than to finish fourth.

 

Roy I suppose always divides opinions, but not in the same way that Ged does. While I'm firmly in the anti Ged camp and plenty of others are pro Ged, there is a definite no mans land in the middle and I'm quite convinced that in Ged's case it really is a case of never the twain shall meet.

Whereas with Roy there seems to be a bit more common ground. Possibly this is due to the fact that even Roy's most vehement detractors knew that right or wrong whatever his decision was that it was for the good of the club and that he always put the club first. I don't think that even the most ardent Ged fan could say the same.

 

Which may explain the warmer feelings to Roy than to Ged by the anti Ged supporters.

 

I think it's fair to say that without Roy despite his failings, Ged would have found it a lot tougher, and it's also fair to say that Rafa would have found it almost impossible to achieve what he has without Ged despite his failings.

 

I think Roy was to Ged what Ged was to Rafa & should be thanked but also acknowledged that his time had run its course.

[Randy Marsh]

Good post that Dicko!

[redrosetints]

That squad with a Hamann or Mascherano would have won the league plenty of times. We just missed that ball winning midfielder.

 

You are right, though we had one in Michael Thomas, just Evans didnt play him. Evans best league run was in 97 I think, we were pushing for the top and it was whilst Rednkapp was injured. Barnes and Thomas played alongside each other and we went something like 20 games unbeaten. Redders came back, as a sub in a shock 1 -0 loss to Ipswich IIRC and Thomas was then dropped never to be seen again. Barnes and Redders as a CM combo, a little lightweight ....

[silverlining]

You are right, though we had one in Michael Thomas, just Evans didnt play him. Evans best league run was in 97 I think, we were pushing for the top and it was whilst Rednkapp was injured. Barnes and Thomas played alongside each other and we went something like 20 games unbeaten. Redders came back, as a sub in a shock 1 -0 loss to Ipswich IIRC and Thomas was then dropped never to be seen again. Barnes and Redders as a CM combo, a little lightweight ....

 

Not sure "lightweight" is the right phrase

[Catch22]

You are right, though we had one in Michael Thomas, just Evans didnt play him. Evans best league run was in 97 I think, we were pushing for the top and it was whilst Rednkapp was injured. Barnes and Thomas played alongside each other and we went something like 20 games unbeaten. Redders came back, as a sub in a shock 1 -0 loss to Ipswich IIRC and Thomas was then dropped never to be seen again. Barnes and Redders as a CM combo, a little lightweight ....

 

 

All too true.

 

& then our best season for 10 years came in '01 when Redknapp was injured, which says a lot...

[Evil_Ways]

Didnt Evans try and sign Campbell and Babbel ?

Can you imagine if he had succeeded with that, think we'd have won no 19 and 20 under him if he'd have managed that.

[redrosetints]

I think with Roy you've got to remember the position he took over from, was probably the worst (player wise) since any manager since December 1959. That Roy got that mess left to him by Souness, into any semblance of a top team in four years is an achievement in itself.

 

He was helped enormously by the young players emerging around him, and to his credit on the pitch at least, he developed a system in which they could flourish.

 

Up until the Cup Final in 96 most Liverpool fans were reasonably happy, they realised they had a young emerging team who on their day were the best in the land. It was just a matter of coaxing it to a level of consistency into that of champions. I thought, so did my dad that; that would come naturally with age and more experience. Sadly this was not to be.

 

Before the Cup final if you are old enough, you'll remember the story's of LFC players out & about in town, indeed there's Jamie Redknapp quotes in the booklet for the first Cream mix compilation (Cream Live) released 01/03/94.

Tales about how absolutely rotten they would get (especially Ruddock) were laughed at and the fans turned a blind eye to it.

 

The Cup Final was a disaster and one of the lowest moments I can remember supporting the club. UTD were beaten before they even got to Wembley, their fans who were right up for it during the match were preparing for defeat for weeks in advance. We knew and more importantly they knew we had their number. If Liverpool attacked UTD, they would fall. We'd played them off the park twice already, more of the same please Roy.

What we got was a team & manager who'd lost their nerve. Had we been beaten by a flukey goal after pummelling them, the fans would have understood, but to be beaten after employing tactics purely to stifle them and win by the odd goal was criminal especially when we'd provided a masterclass in how to stop UTD in our previous encounters. It was not the white suits, or the Spice Boy image that a lot of Liverpool fans dwelled on that night it was how the manager & team responded to pressure of a big match, the pressure of being favourites (and make no mistake we were), despite the league position. In that defeat, real doubts about Roy Evans were sown, and the culture of fans turning a blind eye to these overpaid wasters indiscretions was also at an end.

 

To me Roy's biggest failures wasn't the lack of discipline, it was his capitulation to the senior players, and his treatment of three players.

1) Patrik Berger

2) Brad Friedel

3) Michael Thomas

 

Patrik Berger was a fine player though slightly inconsistent and frustrating, but he was always a threat, and was better in the 442 system we later adopted on the left than if I remember right Jason Mcateer. Roy's refusal to play him was a huge error of judgment, as was his playing him out of position against Middlesborough in the League Cup, and his subsequent scapegoating of him for the defeat.

 

David James is a cunt. There I've said it. Inconsistent, poor judgment and his worst trait absolutely no fucking concentration whatsoever. That's before I even mention the fact he has an attention span of a 18 month old baby. But, he was a naturally gifted shot stopper. David James made mistake after mistake after mistake for Liverpool after the 96 cup final. So many mistakes that Roy ultimately was forced to buy a replacement. Which he did in Brad Friedel. Brad Friedel was eventually signed by us after protracted work permit negotiations, and proved himself to be a competent, consistent if unspectacular goalkeeper. He's since proved himself to a truly fine & outstanding keeper at Blackburn. Brad Friedel made one mistake against UTD parrying a shot by Paul Scholes only for a Utd player to score the rebound we lost 1-0. James regained the top spot, played consistently well for about ten games before reverting to type.

Why is he cunt you ask? in his autobiography he slated Roy Evans. Well in my book a man that gives you chance after chance and shows you infinite fucking patience even at the expense of a far more professional keeper deserves your gratitude not your contempt.

 

Michael Thomas. The single worst thing about Roy was his treatment of Michael Thomas. Michael Thomas should have been the first name on the team sheet every fucking week. Thomas +1 should have been the midfield, Thomas + Barnes = fine, great nothing wrong with that. Thomas + Redknapp (when fit) = even better. Barnes + Redknapp = finishing fourth in a two horse race. We threw away the league that season because we brought back the injured Redknapp to replace Michael Thomas, when it should have been for John Barnes, or not to have brought him back in the first team and used him as substitute. The most catastrophic errors of judgment by a Liverpool manager maybe quite a list, but for me this ranks at the top, it was actually easier to win the title that season had roy kept the same team than to finish fourth.

 

Roy I suppose always divides opinions, but not in the same way that Ged does. While I'm firmly in the anti Ged camp and plenty of others are pro Ged, there is a definite no mans land in the middle and I'm quite convinced that in Ged's case it really is a case of never the twain shall meet.

Whereas with Roy there seems to be a bit more common ground. Possibly this is due to the fact that even Roy's most vehement detractors knew that right or wrong whatever his decision was that it was for the good of the club and that he always put the club first. I don't think that even the most ardent Ged fan could say the same.

 

Which may explain the warmer feelings to Roy than to Ged by the anti Ged supporters.

 

I think it's fair to say that without Roy despite his failings, Ged would have found it a lot tougher, and it's also fair to say that Rafa would have found it almost impossible to achieve what he has without Ged despite his failings.

 

I think Roy was to Ged what Ged was to Rafa & should be thanked but also acknowledged that his time had run its course.

 

Top post Dicko, good that you remember some of those things as I did, (If only to prove Im not going senile) esp the Thomas/Redknapp issue and the general lack of control he had on the players. I think Roy righted the good ship Souness, a fair point but I still think we under achieved with him during his tenure, esp in the last 2 seasons. To put it in perspective, it would be like finishing outside the top for on consecutive seasons, for Rafa, the failure Roy had.

[silverlining]

Didnt Evans try and sign Campbell and Babbel ?

Can you imagine if he had succeeded with that, think we'd have won no 19 and 20 under him if he'd have managed that.

 

 

Doubt it. He'd have found some way to fuck it up.

 

In any case, it's become very fashionable to slate his defence and heap opprobrium on the likes of James, Babb, McAteer, Ruddock, Scales, three CBs et al, but if you looked at the "Goals Against" column for much of his tenure, we often had one of the best defensive records in the league.

[redrosetints]

Not sure "lightweight" is the right phrase

 

Lol, no, lacking in steel then. Barnsey didn't lack any weight by then did he !

[redrosetints]

Didnt Evans try and sign Campbell and Babbel ?

Can you imagine if he had succeeded with that, think we'd have won no 19 and 20 under him if he'd have managed that.

 

It wasn't about players, he had them or if he didnt, he could have signed them in necessary, it was about how he played them. Tactically he was naive and his teams were all style over substance.

[redrosetints]

Doubt it. He'd have found some way to fuck it up.

 

In any case, it's become very fashionable to slate his defence and heap opprobrium on the likes of James, Babb, McAteer, Ruddock, Scales, three CBs et al, but if you looked at the "Goals Against" column for much of his tenure, we often had one of the best defensive records in the league.

 

We could talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

[Paul]

I think it's fair to say that without Roy despite his failings, Ged would have found it a lot tougher, and it's also fair to say that Rafa would have found it almost impossible to achieve what he has without Ged despite his failings.

 

I think Roy was to Ged what Ged was to Rafa & should be thanked but also acknowledged that his time had run its course.

 

I take your point about Roy to Gerard, but not the one about Gerard to Rafa. Would you mind clarifying please mate?

[philyhamann]

There are two Houlliers, the strong, inspirational leader and the crazy Napoleon like figure after he returned.

[Dicko]

I take your point about Roy to Gerard, but not the one about Gerard to Rafa. Would you mind clarifying please mate?

 

Well I think that Roy needed to improve the playing side of things after Souness, absolutely there's no question about that. And I think that to a large extent he did. Granted the team Ged inherited was not as gifted as Roy's finest sides between 95 & 97 but in no way were they anywhere near as bad as the shambles Souness had left us with.

 

The problem was though there was no work ethic instilled in them, they took a lot of games for granted, indeed under Roy the problems are an exact opposite to those of Rafa. Roy's teams could beat Arsenal, Blackburn (top at the time) & UTD. But struggled against Coventry City. Ged instilled in them a formidable work ethic while sacrificing some of the flair, relying on the natural ability of Mcmanaman & Owen & later Gerrard to cover some of the lost flair.

 

The problem arose when I believe Ged started to go too far the other way and the work ethic became all important, even over the ability of the player. This is most starkly highlighted in the sacrifice of Niclas Anelka a somewhat leisurely player but gifted with explosive pace and could (can) finish, for El Hadj Diouf a workhorse with limited ability, but what ever his other faults were he ran & ran. Think of Dirk without the intelligence.

 

But I honestly believe Paul that like Roy before Ged had improved the team beyond recognition, that Ged had improved the club as a whole by modernising it and gearing it towards success. I know it sounds frankly preposterous but he improved it by weakening the team but making it a team.

 

Ged inherited a good football side that were a collection of individuals, sacrificed some individuals but made it a team. However without Roy he wouldn't even have had a remotely good footballing side.

 

Rafa inherited a poor side and certainly on the playing side we'd regressed but not to the point were all hope was lost like it was under Souness. With a bit of guidance at least in the short term we could have a bit of success. What happened in 2005 was beyond anything we could hope to achieve. And I honestly believe Paul that it was the work ethic instilled into the club allied to Rafa's genius that won us the European Cup.

 

I honestly think Paul that despite Rafa's genius he'd of struggled to match what he did in Istanbul with Roy's team all be it individually probably superior.

 

For that I think Ged can be thanked. But he also made many, many errors, not all of which can be laid at the door of his illness.

[Evil_Ways]

It wasn't about players, he had them or if he didnt, he could have signed them in necessary, it was about how he played them. Tactically he was naive and his teams were all style over substance.

 

I disagree, if he'd have had central defenders who were individually very good we would have miles and miles better. Im not saying i disagree that Roy Evans tactics were naive, they certainly were. But i think it would have worked with top quality defenders. We had rubbish in central defence.

[redrosetints]

I disagree, if he'd have had central defenders who were individually very good we would have miles and miles better. Im not saying i disagree that Roy Evans tactics were naive, they certainly were. But i think it would have worked with top quality defenders. We had rubbish in central defence.

 

With hindsight, I think they were pants, totally agree. But correct me if Im wrong, weren't both Scales and Babb british record signings ? And Wasn't' Mark Wright another British transfer record still at the club when Evans moved to a 5-3-2 ?

 

We had the best you could buy, although it would seem, Evans spent it wrongly.

[Evil_Ways]

Yeah, it was spent on the wrong players, without doubt.

[Catch22]

I disagree, if he'd have had central defenders who were individually very good we would have miles and miles better. Im not saying i disagree that Roy Evans tactics were naive, they certainly were. But i think it would have worked with top quality defenders. We had rubbish in central defence.

 

We were rubbish in CB, had a clown in goal (NinFuckingTendo) & regularly used Barnes/Redknapp as our CM which left us light in any battle.

 

That is naivity.

 

Ged came in & immediatedly bought Sami/Henchoz & Didi who all did well for us.

He had less success in goal but at least he tried as James will always let you down when it matters as Villa or Eng fans can testify

[Kevin D]

Indeed he was. I remember two incidences with that fat cunt.

 

1) When he trashed his Porsche pissed in Southport, then rang the coppers the next day to say it was burgled. They couldn't prove it but the coppers knew the stroke he was trying to pull.

 

2) When he got into an argument with that Norwegian lad it may have been Tore Andre Flo's brother. The Norwegian lad said he was an arrogant, overweight waste of a footballer or something like that. Then that prick responded in the mirror by saying he's wrong because "I'm richer than you that makes me right. I could buy and sell you, so show me the respect I deserve" or something along those lines to paraphrase.

 

Utter, utter cock.

 

Like the rest of you I really dislike the man. It came to a head for me a few years ago when I was out in a restuarant with my wife and son. A lot of noise and shouting coming from one table and a lot of " the polish this the polish that". As my son was only 11 at the time and quite impressionable I decided to go ask them to quiet down. I walked over and it's Neil Ruddock , drunk as usual, and a few of his stupid friends.

 

Anyway I asked them to quieten down in the best manner I could given my disdain for " Razor" only to be told to fuck off. Then they turn back to the table and start chatting shit about asians , one of them's thrown the word "paki" in so I decide to go back and tell them to keep it down again. This time Razor's stood up and is shouting all sorts at me - he's a bear by the way- then he throws his drink over me and he's spat at me. Without thinking I've punched the twat in the jaw and he's gone as the restaurant staff immediately seperate us and ask my family to leave.

 

I don't enjoy stories like this and I'm not really a violent man but fuck me knocking that cunt down was easily one of the best moments of my life. Thought I'd share this as you all seem to hate the cunt as much as I do.