Rebuild/Shake Up Summer 2023

[Red74]

Firmino was an embarrassment when he came on against Madrid the other night. He stopped being effective when he got injured before kiev and those previous couple of seasons of great performances have masked a terrible decline.
 

This has to be the end of the road for him this season. Keeping him on eats into the minimal budget we have for no reward. Minor injuries are taking ages to heal and he’s not shown any signs that his terrible habit of giving the ball away has been addressed. I’d rather have an upcoming out and out goalscorer come on to change the game than him.  He goes and frees up £200k a week to go towards the worldie midfielder we’re desperate for. 

[Jose Jones]

19 minutes ago, Moo said:

Deffo outs for me (on the basis we'll bring in one first team level CB, and two midfield starters):

Adrian

Matip 

Oxlade-Chamberlain

Keita

Thiago

Jones

 

Everyone else you could make a case for staying, some of whom should certainly be kept.

 

 

Why would you get rid of Curtis?  Even if you don't think he's any good, he's barely played due to injuries this season, so we'd not get much money for him.

Keep him for a year, even if you loan him out, his value would go up if playing more regularly, as he's still only young.

 

[Red74]

2 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

 

Why would you get rid of Curtis?  Even if you don't think he's any good, he's barely played due to injuries this season, so we'd not get much money for him.

Keep him for a year, even if you loan him out, his value would go up if playing more regularly, as he's still only young.

 

You usually see players ability improve with the fans when they’re out injured yet for some reason our fans tear into this kid when he’s hardly ever been fit for longer than 3 games. 
 

Id look for a loan to a settled prem club in the summer if I was him though. Getting away from the abuse here will do him the world of good. 
 

He’s got the talent and the attitude to make it if he can just stay fit. 

[3 Stacks]

Do people literally ever change their mind about a player they don't like? Firmino has basically transitioned into being a highly efficient and productive part time player. He has very obvious uses, still. I don't understand what's so hard about admitting this. It's not about should he start every game, which he shouldn't, it's is he still useful, and the answer is a clear yes.

 

And it's not even like in around 2019 when he was obviously great at his job, but scoring less, so the haters could pretend like he wasn't doing anything, but now his goal record is actually good and he's a good complimentary piece for everybody. Literally, the only worry are the injuries but who actually knows about that. 

[elvis]

9 hours ago, dave u said:

 

So you're signing four English players to replace them I assume? Because otherwise you're going to have some trouble when it comes to registering a squad.

I'm pretty sure there are English players available that off more than these can , I'm not disrespecting them , but they need to be gone . 

[TheHowieLama]

11 minutes ago, Red74 said:

Firmino was an embarrassment when he came on against Madrid the other night. He stopped being effective when he got injured before kiev and those previous couple of seasons of great performances have masked a terrible decline.
 

This has to be the end of the road for him this season. Keeping him on eats into the minimal budget we have for no reward. Minor injuries are taking ages to heal and he’s not shown any signs that his terrible habit of giving the ball away has been addressed. I’d rather have an upcoming out and out goalscorer come on to change the game than him.  He goes and frees up £200k a week to go towards the worldie midfielder we’re desperate for. 

 

Bobby's new contract will not be at the same wage.

 

League - 13 gola contributions in 1400 minutes. Doubt there is better return on a 5th/6th choice forward in the league.

 

[TheHowieLama]

6 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

 Firmino has basically transitioned into being a highly efficient and productive part time player.

 

I didn't see this before my last post - it's spot on.

A player who is exactly what you need off the bench.

[stringvest]

2 hours ago, Moo said:

Deffo outs for me (on the basis we'll bring in one first team level CB, and two midfield starters):

Adrian

Matip 

Oxlade-Chamberlain

Keita

Thiago

Jones

 

Everyone else you could make a case for staying, some of whom should certainly be kept.

 

seriously, what could you point to this season (pun intended) as evidence that Henderson should stay?  Apart from 

1.  He’s English

2.  Bellingham looks up to him

3.  His cat died and he’s a bit upset

4.  He’s English and he’s really good friends with Bellingham

 

he's literally shown nothing.  Far worse and less effective than Fabinho, Keita, Gomez or any of the other trolls.  At least they have a little bit of influence on a game. 

[stringvest]

2 hours ago, Red74 said:

You usually see players ability improve with the fans when they’re out injured yet for some reason our fans tear into this kid when he’s hardly ever been fit for longer than 3 games. 
 

Id look for a loan to a settled prem club in the summer if I was him though. Getting away from the abuse here will do him the world of good. 
 

He’s got the talent and the attitude to make it if he can just stay fit. 

Talent? Probably.  Attitude? There has been no discernible evidence of the right stuff for a couple of seasons there

[Jose Jones]

4 minutes ago, stringvest said:

seriously, what could you point to this season (pun intended) as evidence that Henderson should stay?  Apart from 

1.  He’s English

2.  Bellingham looks up to him

3.  His cat died and he’s a bit upset

4.  He’s English and he’s really good friends with Bellingham

 

he's literally shown nothing.  Far worse and less effective than Fabinho, Keita, Gomez or any of the other trolls.  At least they have a little bit of influence on a game. 

 

People are being realistic.  Klopp isn't getting rid of Henderson.

[stringvest]

2 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

 

Why would you get rid of Curtis?  Even if you don't think he's any good, he's barely played due to injuries this season, so we'd not get much money for him.

Keep him for a year, even if you loan him out, his value would go up if playing more regularly, as he's still only young.

 

The loan would do him good, especially as a slap around the chops to tell him his attitude hasn’t been right

[VladimirIlyich]

5 hours ago, elvis said:

I'm pretty sure there are English players available that off more than these can , I'm not disrespecting them , but they need to be gone . 

Those English players cost a fortune which wont be paid by FSG. Plus,most English players are shit.

[Moo]

3 hours ago, stringvest said:

seriously, what could you point to this season (pun intended) as evidence that Henderson should stay?  Apart from 

1.  He’s English

2.  Bellingham looks up to him

3.  His cat died and he’s a bit upset

4.  He’s English and he’s really good friends with Bellingham

 

he's literally shown nothing.  Far worse and less effective than Fabinho, Keita, Gomez or any of the other trolls.  At least they have a little bit of influence on a game. 

 

Well the fact he's English is part of why you could make a case for him staying, that and his experience and his influence in the dressing room.

He wouldn't be on my list of definites though, but he's probably on Klopp's.

[Moo]

6 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

 

Why would you get rid of Curtis?  Even if you don't think he's any good, he's barely played due to injuries this season, so we'd not get much money for him.

Keep him for a year, even if you loan him out, his value would go up if playing more regularly, as he's still only young.

 

 

I personally don't rate him but even if I am wrong, you've said it yourself, he's barely played.  We need to get as many of these injury prone players off the books as we can, they're just a distraction.

I'm not against loaning him out either, but he'd still be out next season one way or the other.

[Paul]

7 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

Do people literally ever change their mind about a player they don't like? Firmino has basically transitioned into being a highly efficient and productive part time player. He has very obvious uses, still. I don't understand what's so hard about admitting this. It's not about should he start every game, which he shouldn't, it's is he still useful, and the answer is a clear yes.

 

And it's not even like in around 2019 when he was obviously great at his job, but scoring less, so the haters could pretend like he wasn't doing anything, but now his goal record is actually good and he's a good complimentary piece for everybody. Literally, the only worry are the injuries but who actually knows about that. 

That makes quite a lot of sense. However, I think you have to factor in his wages. I reckon he must be on £140k a week as an absolute minimum and that just seems ridiculous for a player who won’t be first choice in a squad that is being rebuilt with new players who need to play if they are to develop.
 

Klopp’s track record for developing world class forwards is ridiculous (and almost never recognised in the one dimensional assessments of his skill set: “run fast, press hard”). I think there are good grounds for thinking he can do the same with Diaz, Núñez and Gakpo. However, they’ll need to play for that to happen - and in a squad that still contains Jota and Salah where we line up with three forwards. 
 

So I guess the question is about how much we can afford to pay him to prevent his wages impinging on others, and how much of a cut he’s prepared to take for a new deal.

 

If the terms work for both parties, then great. 

[TD_LFC]

7 hours ago, Red74 said:

This has to be the end of the road for him this season. Keeping him on eats into the minimal budget we have for no reward. Minor injuries are taking ages to heal and he’s not shown any signs that his terrible habit of giving the ball away has been addressed. I’d rather have an upcoming out and out goalscorer come on to change the game than him.  He goes and frees up £200k a week to go towards the worldie midfielder we’re desperate for. 

 

It's like fucking brexit in here where how you say anything is more important than saying something that is true.

 

He gives the ball away far less than a lot of our players (including players like Salah and Jota), and is still contributing close to 20 goals/assists a season.

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul]

17 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

 

It's like fucking brexit in here where how you say anything is more important than saying something that is true.

 

He gives the ball away far less than a lot of our players (including players like Salah and Jota), and is still contributing close to 20 goals/assists a season.

 

 

 

 

 

Kind of a variation on my previous post above, but how do you factor in the club’s significant commitment to new players and the need to rebuild?
 

You make good points about Bobby and the positive contributions he can make. However, at some point we need to move on and commit to a new team. As we’ve spent over £150m on new forwards to do just that, surely we have to remove barriers to them playing? 
 

I know we need a squad and we need to rotate. However, five senior forwards supplemented by kids is surely enough? Mo, Jota, Diaz, Gakpo and Núñez is plenty when you throw in Doak, Gordon, Carvalho and Elliot for three positions (although there remains a glaring lack of proven options for the right in that list). 
 

If we can somehow retain Bobby as some kind of emergency supersub without compromising our wage bill or the development of other players, great. I’m not sure we can though. 
 

Squad change/development is not a precise, linear thing. There are times when you have to make strategic decisions on balance in one direction despite there being a good argument for doing the opposite in the short term. 

[Razoray]

7 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

 

Why would you get rid of Curtis?  Even if you don't think he's any good, he's barely played due to injuries this season, so we'd not get much money for him.

Keep him for a year, even if you loan him out, his value would go up if playing more regularly, as he's still only young.

 

He hasn't been picked in match day squads of 20 even when he has been fit.

Our midfield has been very poor this season and he has still only started there once and that was because Thiago got sick on the day of the game. He is 22 now and his injury record is getting worse. He would be behind 5 or 6 at least (depending on Bobby's situation?) forwards to play wide.

We all assume we will have greater quality available in midfield next season so why do you think he will get the games next season to improve and increase his worth? 

He needs to play and we need the money that his sale would generate. 

[TD_LFC]

31 minutes ago, Paul said:

Kind of a variation on my previous post above, but how do you factor in the club’s significant commitment to new players and the need to rebuild?
 

You make good points about Bobby and the positive contributions he can make. However, at some point we need to move on and commit to a new team. As we’ve spent over £150m on new forwards to do just that, surely we have to remove barriers to them playing? 
 

I know we need a squad and we need to rotate. However, five senior forwards supplemented by kids is surely enough? Mo, Jota, Diaz, Gakpo and Núñez is plenty when you throw in Doak, Gordon, Carvalho and Elliot for three positions (although there remains a glaring lack of proven options for the right in that list). 
 

If we can somehow retain Bobby as some kind of emergency supersub without compromising our wage bill or the development of other players, great. I’m not sure we can though. 
 

Squad change/development is not a precise, linear thing. There are times when you have to make strategic decisions on balance in one direction despite there being a good argument for doing the opposite in the short term. 

 

You'll spend a lot more to replace him.

 

While you say we have five senior forwards what's the actual make up of those 5 senior forwards?

 

Gakpo - a left sided forward who's learning to play central

Jota - a No.9 who can play 11 with a patchy injury record

Nunez - a No.9 who has played far far better for us on the wing

Salah - our right sided forward with no obvious replacement.

Diaz - a left sided forward. 

 

Even if you throw in Elliot, Doak, Carvalho and Gordon none of them are central attackers at best Elliott and Carvalho could play as 10's.

 

We've already committed to a new team in attack with Diaz, Gakpo and Nunez, Firmino supplements that and is one of the few players that doesn't have question marks over what his position is.

[Jose Jones]

17 minutes ago, Razoray said:

He hasn't been picked in match day squads of 20 even when he has been fit.

Our midfield has been very poor this season and he has still only started there once and that was because Thiago got sick on the day of the game. He is 22 now and his injury record is getting worse. He would be behind 5 or 6 at least (depending on Bobby's situation?) forwards to play wide.

We all assume we will have greater quality available in midfield next season so why do you think he will get the games next season to improve and increase his worth? 

He needs to play and we need the money that his sale would generate. 

Yeah look I think a lot of that is fair, although I do hold faint hopes he can make it here.
I just don’t think we’d get much money for him at the moment, so that doesn’t make any sense.

We probably waited a season or two too long on a fair few players. Probably could have got £150 million for Jones, Fabinho and Matip at the end of last season.

[Paul]

54 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

 

You'll spend a lot more to replace him.

 

While you say we have five senior forwards what's the actual make up of those 5 senior forwards?

 

Gakpo - a left sided forward who's learning to play central

Jota - a No.9 who can play 11 with a patchy injury record

Nunez - a No.9 who has played far far better for us on the wing

Salah - our right sided forward with no obvious replacement.

Diaz - a left sided forward. 

 

Even if you throw in Elliot, Doak, Carvalho and Gordon none of them are central attackers at best Elliott and Carvalho could play as 10's.

 

We've already committed to a new team in attack with Diaz, Gakpo and Nunez, Firmino supplements that and is one of the few players that doesn't have question marks over what his position is.

I wouldn’t replace him. His wages should be reinvested in other areas of  the team. There’s definitely an issue with the balance of the forward line though. In the short term I guess the right side cover is Jota and Doak. It would definitely need looking at again in a year’s time. 

[Razoray]

17 minutes ago, Paul said:

I wouldn’t replace him. His wages should be reinvested in other areas of  the team. There’s definitely an issue with the balance of the forward line though. In the short term I guess the right side cover is Jota and Doak. It would definitely need looking at again in a year’s time. 

Diaz played on the right twice last season and while not as effective as he was on the left, he was good. Jota never does well there. I hope Kaide Gordon goes on loan next season after his injury. He has something 

[stringvest]

1 hour ago, TD_LFC said:

 

It's like fucking brexit in here where how you say anything is more important than saying something that is true.

 

He gives the ball away far less than a lot of our players (including players like Salah and Jota), and is still contributing close to 20 goals/assists a season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't believe this is true.  What won't be included in the passing stats is how often he is dispossessed or how often he runs into blind alleys.  If he really was 'the glue' that brought others into play, that could drop deep effectively to start new tracks, then it wouldn't matter if he didn't score.  He used to be good at that stuff, but no more, not for a long time.  

 

[TD_LFC]

6 minutes ago, stringvest said:

 

I honestly don't believe this is true.  What won't be included in the passing stats is how often he is dispossessed or how often he runs into blind alleys.  If he really was 'the glue' that brought others into play, that could drop deep effectively to start new tracks, then it wouldn't matter if he didn't score.  He used to be good at that stuff, but no more, not for a long time.  

 

 

I included dispossessed stats separately, so you're right, they aren't included in the passing stats, he's still not most wasteful by that metric either (at a club or premier league level).

 

By any measure he's not showing up as the most wasteful it's purely a case of anecdotal evidence fed by cognitive bias.

[Daisy]

All the contract expiring players will leave and any players we get decent offers for will leave. 

 

We will have a negative net spend.