Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Anubis]

Link to a petition on Change.org to appoint an independent body to monitor claims during political campaigns.

 

https://www.change.org/p/restore-truthful-politics-create-an-independent-office-to-monitor-political-campaigns?recruiter=538508057&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

[M_B]

What happened?

 

If your asking are they being dictated to on price then in fairness i am not sure.

 

The point i was making is that while people are saying the EU is beneficial to the economy of the EU it isnt beneficial to countries outside of the EU as you have said. If the EU didnt exist then it may be a more fairer europe where countries can trade with who they want.

 

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Ok understood.

[cochyn]

What happened?

 

If your asking are they being dictated to on price then in fairness i am not sure.

 

The point i was making is that while people are saying the EU is beneficial to the economy of the EU it isnt beneficial to countries outside of the EU as you have said. If the EU didnt exist then it may be a more fairer europe where countries can trade with who they want.

 

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How does the EU set prices, when in all other cases it's the market that sets the price for goods and services?

 

There are EU standards by which vendors need to abide by to access their markets. There are costs involved in meeting these standards (testing, certification etc). But as far as I know, the EU does not set prices.

[Cardie]

Link to a petition on Change.org to appoint an independent body to monitor claims during political campaigns.

 

https://www.change.org/p/restore-truthful-politics-create-an-independent-office-to-monitor-political-campaigns?recruiter=538508057&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

Shouldn't even need a petition, all manifestos/claims should be fact checked by an independent body for legitimacy before they can be used.

 

[Kloppite]

How does the EU set prices, when in all other cases it's the market that sets the price for goods and services?

 

There are EU standards by which vendors need to abide by to access their markets. There are costs involved in meeting these standards (testing, certification etc). But as far as I know, the EU does not set prices.

I was talking about comodities from abroad not in the EU.

 

The EU may not say we are giving you this price but as you know the markets can be manipulated quite easily by bankers especially if those bankers have access to an economy of 500million people.

 

To also restrict trade of non EU countries to countries within the EU is not particulary fair either.

 

 

 

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[cochyn]

Stuff

 

 

 

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Markets can be influenced by short-sellers and the like which does occasionally skew commodity prices. But this is due to large-scale 'herd' mentalities; Trader A sees Trader B moving into, say; corn and decides to follow suit, but with bigger volumes, setting off a chain of buying that skews the market.

 

The EU as a bloc may embargo a country's goods and services on political grounds (a recent example being Russia, as a penalty for annexing The Crimea). But it does not and cannot set prices. Neither can bankers, really.

[Jenson]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but is this thing about there needing to be an act of parliament before Article 50 can be invoked actually true, or is it just bullshit?

[Kloppite]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but is this thing about there needing to be an act of parliament before Article 50 can be invoked actually true, or is it just bullshit?

I heard that all it needs is for the pm to send a letter to the EU stating the uk is invoking Article 50.

 

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[FanchesterCity]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/features/magazine-36656392/36656392

 

This is (in my view) very typical.

It's hardly a complicated debate for them.

 

And, I'll probably upset a lot of people saying this, but this 'mild racism' is being overlook. She's racist. She probably genuinely doesn't think she is, but she is.

 

THESE are the people deciding the nation's future - does anybody really think they read a manifesto?

[skend04]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but is this thing about there needing to be an act of parliament before Article 50 can be invoked actually true, or is it just bullshit?

True. I think. Basically have to ratify the referendum first by repealing the European Communities Act.

[FanchesterCity]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but is this thing about there needing to be an act of parliament before Article 50 can be invoked actually true, or is it just bullshit?

Bullshit.

[Jose Jones]

I was talking about comodities from abroad not in the EU.

 

The EU may not say we are giving you this price but as you know the markets can be manipulated quite easily by bankers especially if those bankers have access to an economy of 500million people.

 

To also restrict trade of non EU countries to countries within the EU is not particulary fair either.

 

 

 

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There were a lot more barriers to trade before the EU, both between countries in Europe and from those outside. companies from outside the EU used to have to go through different processes and different import costs for each individual country. With the EU they just have one set of rules and can sell stuff throughout the continent. Much easier and cheaper.

[Kloppite]

Markets can be influenced by short-sellers and the like which does occasionally skew commodity prices. But this is due to large-scale 'herd' mentalities; Trader A sees Trader B moving into, say; corn and decides to follow suit, but with bigger volumes, setting off a chain of buying that skews the market.

 

The EU as a bloc may embargo a country's goods and services on political grounds (a recent example being Russia, as a penalty for annexing The Crimea). But it does not and cannot set prices. Neither can bankers, really.

So its not possible at all for the EU to enter into agreements with individual nations about buying comodities?

 

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[Rico1304]

I posted a link a few pages ago about the process.

 

The government has to formally invoke article 50 following constitutional process. This could be a letter and could be backed by an Act of Parliament but doesn't have to be.

[FanchesterCity]

There were a lot more barriers to trade before the EU, both between countries in Europe and from those outside. companies from outside the EU used to have to go through different processes and different import costs for each individual country. With the EU they just have one set of rules and can sell stuff throughout the continent. Much easier and cheaper.

 

Yes, and your average consumer didn't really buy from abroad like they do now. Businesses did, but not Joe Bloggs. It was a BIG deal buying something from abroad!

 

And you're right about making just one product for all of Europe (more or less) with one standard set of regulations to get a CE mark etc. Although some will still complain it's more 'red tape' from the EU telling us how to make things, overall I think it's better for manufacturers and consumers alike.

[Kloppite]

There were a lot more barriers to trade before the EU, both between countries in Europe and from those outside. companies from outside the EU used to have to go through different processes and different import costs for each individual country. With the EU they just have one set of rules and can sell stuff throughout the continent. Much easier and cheaper.

Countries that are in the EU are free to trade with one another but other European countries are not able to trade with the EU as the EU prevents it. So countries outside of the EU that may benefit from being able to trade with nations are being prevented because of the EU.

 

As for goods being imported from the rest of the world just because there is a one size fits all approach doesnt mean that it is better for these other countries.

 

 

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[FanchesterCity]

Markets can be influenced by short-sellers and the like which does occasionally skew commodity prices. But this is due to large-scale 'herd' mentalities; Trader A sees Trader B moving into, say; corn and decides to follow suit, but with bigger volumes, setting off a chain of buying that skews the market.

 

The EU as a bloc may embargo a country's goods and services on political grounds (a recent example being Russia, as a penalty for annexing The Crimea). But it does not and cannot set prices. Neither can bankers, really.

 

No, the EU can't set prices, but for imports from outside the EU it can and does impose tariffs which counter any attempt to undermine EU product prices. The Tariffs are hugely complex and are different even between dry-roasted and non dry-roasted coffee, so it's not like come blanket 4% applied on everything, it's VERY granular.

One example was steel, where the Chinese wanted to flood the EU and the US with hugely discounted steel to put competitors out of business, both the EU and the US applied high tariffs to counter that.

So no, they aren't setting prices, but they are manipulating the market in favour of EU goods - that's the whole point of the EU to protect our own interests.

[cochyn]

So its not possible at all for the EU to enter into agreements with individual nations about buying comodities?

 

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It's not really in the EU's interest to do that. It's just like you or I going into a shop to buy a telly. we can choose from a lot of tellies at a lot of different prices. All the EU has done in this situation is set a standard by which those tellies must perform in order for them to be allowed to be sold in the shop. Crucially, those standards apply across the EU. So we'd know, that that telly is as good in the UK as it is were we to buy it in Spain, France or whichever EU member state we chose to buy it from. It's a common market.which standardises requirements to a commonly acceptable level.

 

There are tariffs on some finished items I believe, but it's not like the EU is alone in doing this. This is where it gets incredibly complex and beyond me really.

 

And now the UK thinks we know better...

[FanchesterCity]

Countries that are in the EU are free to trade with one another but other European countries are not able to trade with the EU as the EU prevents it. So countries outside of the EU that may benefit from being able to trade with nations are being prevented because of the EU.

 

As for goods being imported from the rest of the world just because there is a one size fits all approach doesnt mean that it is better for these other countries.

 

 

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Countries outside the EU are able to trade within the EU, they just have to pay to do so via Tariffs.

[Anubis]

Paul Mason‏ @paulmasonnews

News: EU Council statement said to insist "access to single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms" - free movement for EEA status

 

 

Paul Mason‏ @paulmasonnews

News: EU Council also to insist no negotiations of any kind without A50 and firmed up wording to make that categoric from earlie

 

 

I'm beginning to think Boris may not get everything he's asked for...

[cochyn]

No, the EU can't set prices, but for imports from outside the EU it can and does impose tariffs which counter any attempt to undermine EU product prices. The Tariffs are hugely complex and are different even between dry-roasted and non dry-roasted coffee, so it's not like come blanket 4% applied on everything, it's VERY granular.

One example was steel, where the Chinese wanted to flood the EU and the US with hugely discounted steel to put competitors out of business, both the EU and the US applied high tariffs to counter that.

So no, they aren't setting prices, but they are manipulating the market in favour of EU goods - that's the whole point of the EU to protect our own interests.

 

There's your answer kloppite.

[Kloppite]

It's not really in the EU's interest to do that. It's just like you or I going into a shop to buy a telly. we can choose from a lot of tellies at a lot of different prices. All the EU has done in this situation is set a standard by which those tellies must perform in order for them to be allowed to be sold in the shop. Crucially, those standards apply across the EU. So we'd know, that that telly is as good in the UK as it is were we to buy it in Spain, France or whichever EU member state we chose to buy it from. It's a common market.which standardises requirements to a commonly acceptable level.

 

There are tariffs on some finished items I believe, but it's not like the EU is alone in doing this. This is where it gets incredibly complex and beyond me really.

 

And now the UK thinks we know better...

So the markets set the price.

 

So if the EU wants to buy enough steel for the economic needs of 500 million people it will pay the exact same price per tonne of steel as say Jamaca for instance?

 

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[FanchesterCity]

I think there could be room to move on freedom of movement with some sort of 'cap' on the numbers. Other nations have similar concerns.

So that would be no 'points' based system / discrimination, but safety measures if the numbers get too high.

Switzerland is trying for this now - they have twice the immigration we do (per capita).

 

There could also be some scope on not limiting the numbers, but getting more money based on the numbers - so if a nation is seeing high migration, they get additional funding to cope.

 

There's got to be a way to keep the core values of the EU (including freedom of movement) whilst managing to address some of the concerns about immigration. But would the British public settle for 'we still can't stop EU migration, but we'll get a lot more money back now'? I'm not sure they would - they seem fixated on the immigration issue and won't be happy until there's iron gates at Dover.

[Kloppite]

There's your answer kloppite.

I know why they are doing it but my point was and is that while it may look great for people inside the EU that the EU is doing this on their behalf its not great for countries who arent in the EU whose goods maybe more expensive and unatractive.

 

The fact it is a one size fits all means that individual nations arent able to choose who they trade with this is dictated by Brussels. Country A who is in the EU may want to trade with country B as they have a long history of friendship and trade. Country A cannot because the EU either prevents it or if it can Country B's goods are so expensive they wont sell.

 

Country A may want to leave the EU but cant because the country will end up in financial ruin so they have to tow the line regardless.

 

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[Cardie]

 

 

I think there could be room to move on freedom of movement with some sort of 'cap' on the numbers. Other nations have similar concerns.

So that would be no 'points' based system / discrimination, but safety measures if the numbers get too high.

Switzerland is trying for this now - they have twice the immigration we do (per capita).

 

There could also be some scope on not limiting the numbers, but getting more money based on the numbers - so if a nation is seeing high migration, they get additional funding to cope.

 

There's got to be a way to keep the core values of the EU (including freedom of movement) whilst managing to address some of the concerns about immigration. But would the British public settle for 'we still can't stop EU migration, but we'll get a lot more money back now'? I'm not sure they would - they seem fixated on the immigration issue and won't be happy until there's iron gates at Dover.

Only problem with that is "can 3 out of the 5 of you fuck off out of our country unless we recieve adequate renumeration from the EU to cover the cost of you surplus foreigners" is not as catchy as "the is england fuck off foreign scum".