Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Numero Veinticinco]

20 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

They're some of the biggest cunts on the planet. 

 

Racist, destroying every single public service, putting children in poverty, sending nurses to food banks, and systematically killing people through their policies. 

 

Never has it been clearer that there really are only two reasons to vote Tory. You're a well off sociopath, or you're an absolute cretin.

Disagree. Some are both. 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

1 minute ago, Duff Man said:

They don't even try to hide it anymore, either. Probably because they've realised they don't actually have to. Ministers can openly admit their policies have contributed to the homelessness crisis, or that universal credit led to an increase in food bank use, and half the country doesn't even bat an eyelid. It's utterly depressing.

 

That knobber Hunt has been coming out with some classics over the last few weeks, the utter Tory cunt. 

[Jairzinho]

Just now, Numero Veinticinco said:

Disagree. Some are both. 

Well, yes. But at least there is an excuse for the former if you're also the latter.

[Duff Man]

1 minute ago, Pistonbroke said:

That knobber Hunt has been coming out with some classics over the last few weeks, the utter Tory cunt. 

To be fair to him, he did say that pushing through one of the most disastrous bits of policy imaginable would be done with a heavy heart. So, at least those poor folks losing their jobs will be able to console themselves with that.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Just now, Duff Man said:

To be fair to him, he did say that pushing through one of the most disastrous bits of policy imaginable would be done with a heavy heart. So, at least those poor folks losing their jobs will be able to console themselves with that.

In his eyes, they should be grateful for small mercies. It's quite obvious to anybody with a brain that pushing on with Brexit regardless, means that there is more in it for the rich than the rest of you. They'll be sorted either way, they are only pushing on with things (or so they say) because they are thinking of their party and not the general public. That goes for most of them as well, not just the Tory cunts. 

[Duff Man]

1 minute ago, Pistonbroke said:

In his eyes, they should be grateful for small mercies. It's quite obvious to anybody with a brain that pushing on with Brexit regardless, means that there is more in it for the rich than the rest of you. They'll be sorted either way, they are only pushing on with things (or so they say) because they are thinking of their party and not the general public. That goes for most of them as well, not just the Tory cunts. 

That's the crux of it. They're literally a cancer.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

[Red Phoenix]

The referendum result is now over 3 years old, we should probably have another one because the last one is clearly out of date at this point.

 

That's unless the idea is still supposed to be that this is a "once in a generation thing", if so that's complete bullshit to me anyway and what I think is one of the main causes of the problem in the first place.

 

It was a once in a generation thing from those that wanted to stay in the EU too, until the result was wrong of course. So both sides are at it if leavers are saying that too now.

 

It'd take so much work that it'd seem insane for a good while, but for the sake of the voters and countries across Europe that are infinitely more important than the EU ever will be, it'd be good if at some stage in the future more regular referendums could be held. So that the EU is more of a dynamic and democratic organisation instead of being such a rigid and heavily corporate influenced mess like it is now, just like so many governments.

 

You could apply this to other areas too, like countries and even smaller areas within countries voting on being part of the UK regularly, states voting on being part of USA regularly and many other related situations, but that's way too anarchistic and we can't be having that.

 

In fact that's almost a fucking thought crime that is. How can the elites concentrate power when plebs are coming and going all the time?

[Pureblood]

I don't think that would be a good idea.  Look at the carnage a single advisory referendum has caused.  It would result in a constant state of flux with nothing being achieved, like what we have now but turned up to eleventy.  

 

Referendums are bad.  Direct democracy is bad.  You can't ask the public to decide something important,  you'll end up with the ghost of Jade Goody being in charge of major policy decisions.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

They need to just fuck it off. People will soon find something else to whine about. They'll be the first to whine about things not going well anyway, should a no deal scenario happen. The future of the country is more important than so called pride or stubbornness for want of a better word. 

[Red Phoenix]

56 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Referendums are bad.  Direct democracy is bad.  You can't ask the public to decide something important,  you'll end up with the ghost of Jade Goody being in charge of major policy decisions.

 

Totally disagree but I can see what you're getting at. I think the answer to that is for the general level of awareness and understanding of the population to be a lot better than it currently is, then referendums and direct democracy would work better, along with almost everything else.

 

To sort that out two main things for a start would be fixing the broken education system and the amount of propaganda that's being spewed out by the mainstream media. And of course then there's the actual people we're having referendums and votes centered on, and sorting out the problem of corporate influence/lobbying in a big way could help with that too to get things started.

 

If the population mostly can't be trusted to vote democratically on so many things, then surely that has to be changed. Again though, this doesn't serve the aims of the ultra rich so we're not supposed to be interested in it. Better for them that we slave away and don't have too much influence while those tax havens get stocked up with more cash, bombs carry on being dropped in foreign countries and the environment goes to shit.

[Pureblood]

4 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Totally disagree but I can see what you're getting at. I think the answer to that is for the general level of awareness and understanding of the population to be a lot better than it currently is, then referendums and direct democracy would work better, along with almost everything else.

 

To sort that out two main things for a start would be fixing the broken education system and the amount of propaganda that's being spewed out by the mainstream media. And of course then there's the actual people we're having referendums and votes centered on, and sorting out the problem of corporate influence/lobbying in a big way could help with that too to get things started.

 

If the population mostly can't be trusted to vote democratically on so many things, then surely that has to be changed. Again though, this doesn't serve the aims of the ultra rich so we're not supposed to be interested in it. Better for them that we slave away and don't have too much influence while those tax havens get stocked up with more cash, bombs carry on being dropped in foreign countries and the environment goes to shit.

The reason we elect politicians and have a big civil service backing them up is because the general population don't have the expertise and time/resources to do these things themselves or act in their own best interests.  Exhibit A: Brexit, a needlessly self-destructive clusterfuck resulting from a referendum, the purest form of direct democracy. 

 

If you are diagnosed with a disease you don't ask the electorate what the best course of treatment will be, you place your trust in trained professionals and let them decide what the best treatment should be.

 

I appreciate the diametric view, though.  That's what a discussion forum is all about. 

[Red Phoenix]

31 minutes ago, TK421 said:

If you are diagnosed with a disease you don't ask the electorate what the best course of treatment will be, you place your trust in trained professionals and let them decide what the best treatment should be.

 

Of course, but that's something affecting one person. When things are affecting the vast majority of the population I think it's best to have more direct democracy. Anyway both of our ideas can work in the right situation, but when politicians are so corrupt like they are now, direct democracy at least helps the population have some direct say in what's going on and can lessen that negative influence. It doesn't mean that all decisions would go well, but that's part of the point of doing it regularly, so that another vote later on has a chance of changing things again.

 

Looking at only the EU referendum as the reason why it fails isn't fair either, there's no other recent referendums on other subjects to compare it to where the population could've shown that they can make a wise choice. Say if we had a referendum on fracking, tax havens, renationalising rail or several other subjects where it's clear we want change but politicians are holding us back, then maybe referendums wouldn't be painted as such a negative thing.

[Pureblood]

12 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Of course, but that's something affecting one person. When things are affecting the vast majority of the population I think it's best to have more direct democracy. Anyway both of our ideas can work in the right situation, but when politicians are so corrupt like they are now, direct democracy at least helps the population have some direct say in what's going on and can lessen that negative influence. It doesn't mean that all decisions would go well, but that's part of the point of doing it regularly, so that another vote later on has a chance of changing things again.

 

Looking at only the EU referendum as the reason why it fails isn't fair either, there's no other recent referendums on other subjects to compare it to where the population could've shown that they can make a wise choice. Say if we had a referendum on fracking, tax havens, renationalising rail or several other subjects where it's clear we want change but politicians are holding us back, then maybe referendums wouldn't be painted as such a negative thing.

It's the same principle.  The electorate places its trust in those who have the expertise and resources to make decisions in their best interests.  I think regular referendums on complex issues would be disastrous.

 

The public were asked to name a polar research ship and ended up calling it Boaty McBoatface, you simply can't trust them.  Look at the shite that reaches the top of the music/film charts, the newspapers they buy, the fast food.  The general public haven't got a fucking clue, don't get them involved. 

[Red Phoenix]

10 minutes ago, TK421 said:

The public were asked to name a polar research ship and ended up calling it Boaty McBoatface, you simply can't trust them.  Look at the shite that reaches the top of the music/film charts, the newspapers they buy, the fast food.  The general public haven't got a fucking clue, don't get them involved. 

 

Nothing wrong with Boaty McBoatface.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, TK421 said:

 The general public haven't got a fucking clue, don't get them involved. 

Not a fan of dictatorships, myself.

 

The ideal is an informed electorate. The problem isn't that the people have too much power - far, far from it - the problem is that we are so badly misinformed on so many subjects that we often make unwise choices when exercising the little power we do have.

[Boss]

It's amazing what so called democrats will do to overturn the result of a democratic vote. Give them more democracy they say. Well democracy only works if you're willing to enact the result of the vote. If one side wins and then you give them another vote, and another, because you don't like the answer, then that's not a democracy, that's a dictatorship. 

[skend04]

1 hour ago, Boss said:

It's amazing what so called democrats will do to overturn the result of a democratic vote. Give them more democracy they say. Well democracy only works if you're willing to enact the result of the vote. If one side wins and then you give them another vote, and another, because you don't like the answer, then that's not a democracy, that's a dictatorship. 

Art.50 has been invoked so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

Shifting goalposts after the vote isn't democratic. Gone are the claims we'll be better off and there'll be more money and less immigrants to we'll survive. We're likely in a self-inflicted recession now too.

 

The leave vote is a massive failure, anyone who still stands by the non-binding advisory poll when the result is the polar opposite of what was promised is a complete dickhead at best. 

 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

4 hours ago, Boss said:

It's amazing what so called democrats will do to overturn the result of a democratic vote. Give them more democracy they say. Well democracy only works if you're willing to enact the result of the vote. If one side wins and then you give them another vote, and another, because you don't like the answer, then that's not a democracy, that's a dictatorship. 

It's quite clear that the initial referendum was run on lies and a severe lack of information. Since then all you here from those who wish to leave the EU is the drum of democracy being beaten to death. Despite the lack of positive news they just bury their heads in the sand and claim false news, although they are quick to jump on any statement which suits the choice they made, despite the information being based mainly on opinions and spewing from those who only wish to make a killing out of Brexit, regardless of what is best for the public in General. Be honest, the a lot of those who voted for Brexit have been sold a false dream from the masters who treat them like puppets. 

[Rico1304]

BREAKING: John McDonnell says Labour’s compromise position on Brexit “has not worked” and “we need to express a view which is clearly...remain”.

[mattyq]

31 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

BREAKING: John McDonnell says Labour’s compromise position on Brexit “has not worked” and “we need to express a view which is clearly...remain”.

Fortunately McDonnell gets it

[Captain Howdy]

Apparently he’s fallen out with Corbyn, don’t know how true it is like

[Guest Pistonbroke]

11 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Apparently he’s fallen out with Corbyn, don’t know how true it is like

It was reported last year that things have deteriorated in their relationship. Although McDonnell told the Wall street journal in May that Corbyn and himself are both remainers at heart. 

[Pureblood]

11 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Not a fan of dictatorships, myself.

Me neither and that's not what I'm arguing for (which I think you know).

 

I'm not a fan of referendums either, though.

[aRdja]

1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

Apparently he’s fallen out with Corbyn, don’t know how true it is like