Hillsborough "The Search For Truth" 10.25pm

[FanchesterCity]

I'm confused, were the ITV and BBC docs the same program?

 

No, the BBC one was poor, the ITV one half decent (but nothing that's not been known before).

[skowser]

Are there links to both on this thread?

[ClaireJ22]

Re: Kop of Shame.

Saw that also, fucking unbelievable, the s*n reaches millions everyday, I never buy it but will look at the cover on Thursday and see what they say.

 

A previous post suggested doing something for our next home game. I know who we play against and millions will be watching, this is our opportunity to put a message across.

 

That what I was trying to say - I know the Taylor Report proved our innocence, but it wont do us any harm to reiterate this point again.

[FanchesterCity]

Are there links to both on this thread?

 

Yep

[FanchesterCity]

That what I was trying to say - I know the Taylor Report proved our innocence, but it wont do us any harm to reiterate this point again.

 

I wish there was some universal way of getting folks to understand.

 

Some people just aren't that bright, and some are just awful people in general, and can't see beyond 'Liverpool'.

 

The general 'hooligan' element of those times tarred every fan and it's so hard to remove that stain.

 

I think it takes other fans (of other clubs) to truly hit the message home, or as horrible as it sounds, yet another disaster, at a different club - before they'll look back and say "you know what?... NOW we get it".

 

You face a couple of other issues too...

 

1) Most of us aren't 100% sure what 'justice' is deemed to be. We get the general gist, but it's not clear at all, not even when you speak to Liverpool fans.

 

2) For all Duckenfield (and others) mistakes, and even his AWFUL lie (which he admitted to), there's a fair few (inluding me) who take a good look at themselves and think... MIGHT I have made similar decisions... and the answer is yes. When it comes to the lie, that's harder, but still.. we MIGHT have panicked and told a stupid lie in the heat of the moment. Of course, in his role, and at that level, it's a grave error, and one that ought to have cost him his job, possibly more. The subsequent cover up is another matter, but in terms of those 25 minutes or so... many can comprehend how it happened.

 

3) I suspect, whilst nothing compared with the victims and family, Duckenfield probably HAS suffered over his mistakes, and there's a real danger that the 'justice' can be misinterpreted as a bit of a witch hunt. It's not, but it can come across that way.

 

4) Sometimes, the whole debate can look like 'Liverpool' vs 'the police / politicians / FA' etc... and look very tribal. That perception needs to change.

The entire football system failed fans on that day, and your everyday fan, like your every copper were all victims of it.

 

It's not for me to say what 'justice' is (or should be) in the eyes of others, but for me, there is nothing more important than EVERYBODY realising those fans didn't do anything wrong. They didn't act like idiots, they weren't drunk, they just did what we would ALL do... they represent EVERY fan, or EVERY club... it could have been us. And that's the real 'justice' for me... that everybody understands and believes that.

 

The issue of a cover up comes secondary to that... and once everybody understands the first point, the cover up reveals itself without trying.

[Paulie Dangerously]

I've got a feeling, a horrible feeling in my gut, that tomorrow will not be what we all hope it will be.

[Preston Red]

Independent front page - "Hillsborough police did doctor... on Twitpic

 

This is doing the rounds on Twitter.

 

I hope to God that this is true and is the beginning of the real truth coming out.

[FanchesterCity]

It's already known that some statements were adjusted... to lessen the reports of mass confusion and lack of organisation.

 

However, in those instances, there was a semi-feasible explanation... that 'statements' can go through multiple drafts (which is true) and the language can be toned down to be less 'dramatic'...

 

My worry is that if there is no smoking gun to be found... is that because it's been buried / destroyed, or did it ever exist?

 

I have NO doubt that some where more than happy to focus blame on the fans, but how far things were actively covered up remains to be seen.

The coming days will be difficult for all parties... and the Justice campaign will have to be mindful of not losing public sympathy... the public need to remain onside if there's any hope of pressure being applied (should it be needed) for those culpable (if any) to be prosecuted.

[seamus o'lunacy]

fanchester, all fans were counted in via the turnstile count mechanism. The accuracy of that count was put to the test by the hse. They tested the accuracy of all turnstiles(at our end) not just the leppings lane turnstiles. It was within a per cent. The percent difference was due to one faulty turnstile in the block of leppings lane turnstiles.

 

That was acknowledged when giving their three figures for the leppings lane end.

 

Taylor said it was possible fans could have gone onto the leppings lane from the west stand turnstiles. It was possible. It was also possible that fans with stand tickets came in through the leppings lane turnstiles and then made their way to their seats or onto the terrace and its possible fans with leppings lane tickets went into either seated section. All of these things are possible. The supportive evidence?

 

The turnstile count showed the seated areas weren't over capacity they matched the allocation. The hse head count also showed those who entered the leppings lane matched the allocation. Which leads me to believe that although all manner of things were possible its more likely that those with north stand tickets went in the north stand, those with west stand tickets went there, and those with leppings lane tickets...

 

Following their count the hse team came to the conclusion that it was unlikely that the numbers exceeded 10,124. That would be 'a give' of 24. Not hundreds.

 

However, that was their absolute maximum figure. Their best figure saw the number who entered was under the 10'100 capacity. Those findings, and footage showing the other stands full, the wing pens empty all helped taylor to conclude there wasn't any substance to allegation of hundreds of ticketless fans.

 

But you when Paul Middup says 500 plus were without tickets and that line being repeated over the years despite hse evidence, despite the turnstile count, such casual use of 'give or take a few hundred' is simply intolerable and incompatible with the actual evidence.

 

Thats my point.

[FanchesterCity]

Disagree on a couple of (relatively) minor points... not all fans went through the turnstiles A to G... some went through gates 1..16 and weren't counted in the HSE report (which only accounted for the A to G gates.

 

The turnstiles were found to be approx 3% in variance with SWFC's records, with the exception of gate G which was deemed to be about 23% out.

 

The 1% figure for 'accuracy' is not accuracy of the attendance, it's the reliability of counting for all those that passed through it. i.e. of all those that passed through, it was likely to be within 1% accuracy.

 

All of that came to a deemed absolute max of just 24 over the official capacity. Which is where you have your '+24' tolerance from.

 

However I also see the interpretation you've made... Full capacity +/- a couple of hundred... whilst my intention was more 'pretty much full capacity, and the figures are accurate with within a couple of hundred' i.e. They aren't far wrong, so it could never be claimed to have been way over.

 

 

Where we definitely agree is that any 'ticketless fans' were not significant in number, and of any that did exist, they had no bearing on the events.

 

I also agree that it's tricky mentioning such things, because it adds fuel to the fires of the ignorant. But it's probably as bad to attempt to deny it completely too. Rock and a hard place there.

 

The myths of 'drunken hoards' and 'steaming the gates' still remain. It's heartbreaking that folks can't (or won't) take just 20 minutes or so to read the essential facts. Taylor's report is largely pretty simple reading, it's annoying that so many with an opinion on the events haven't bothered!

 

Then again, we have holocaust deniers too.... so nothing should surprise us.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

I would say it is pretty certain judging by the papers, that there are certainly enough findings in the documents that proves of government and police involvment.

 

Tomorrows Telegraph.

 

The report, prepared by the Hillsborough Independent Panel, is set to reveal new information about policing errors made at the FA Cup semi-final at Sheffield Wednesday’s ground in April 1989, and the steps taken by South Yorkshire Police to deflect blame onto the fans.

 

The panel’s report is also expected to detail the extent of the then government’s knowledge of events, and any part ministers may have played in suppressing the truth about what happened on the day.

 

The panel, chaired by the Bishop of Liverpool, the Rt Rev James Jones, has been given access to more than 450,000 previously unseen documents relating to the disaster, including police statements, records from the emergency services, and Cabinet papers, exempted for the first time from the 30 year-rule.

 

The families of those who died anticipate the report will provide further evidence of false police claims that Liverpool supporters who were drunk or did not have tickets were responsible for the disaster.

 

 

 

Earlier this year Mrs Thatcher’s press secretary Sir Bernard Ingham confirmed that a senior police officer had told her the day after the disaster that a “tanked-up mob” was responsible for the deaths.

These false accusations were repeated in the official police case to the inquests and public inquiry chaired by Lord Justice Taylor. Taylor established that in fact the police decision to allow supporter access to the already overcrowded central-pen of the Leppings Lane Terrace at the start of the game against Nottingham Forest was the cause of the deaths.

The Prime Minister will respond in Parliament on Wednesday lunchtime, and is understood to be considering offering “an expression of regret” for the failures of the government, police and the emergency services.

Relatives of those that died, and campaigners including Liverpool MP Steve Rotherham, believe he should go further and apologise “unreservedly” for the shortcomings of the emergency services. They will also call for inquest verdicts of accidental death to be overturned.

“The families have waited 23 years for the truth, and the next step will be to continue the fight for justice,” said Mr Rotherham, who campaigned in Parliament for the release of all Cabinet papers to the panel.

“Should the report show what we anticipate it will provide the opportunity for the Attorney General to apply to the High Court for the inquest verdicts to be quashed as unsound.

“The families have always believed that what happened that day was unlawful killing, and that there was a massive cover-up at the highest level. The families have had to grieve for 23 years, while also fighting to clear the names of those supporters who tried to save their lives.

“There will be unpalatable truths for all sides to acknowledge, but I believe there should be a full and unequivocal apology for the part played by the government of the day in what happened.”

[WaltonRed]

I cant see Cameron apologising but it would be something monumental if he did

[lifetime fan]

That very much depends on what he's apologising for WR.

[WaltonRed]

He apologised over Bloody Sunday didnt he?

[lifetime fan]

I meant what he's saying sorry for mate.

 

'I'm sorry the families lost loved ones at Hillsborough' is very different from 'I'm sorry families lost lost loved ones at Hillsborough and the government of the day were involved in a plan to blame the disaster on the fans'.

[WaltonRed]

I dont mean remorse for the deaths I mean sorry for the cock up and the cover up

 

we'll soon see

[Geraghty]

He apologised over Bloody Sunday didnt he?

 

Yea and that was unbelievable,nobody thought that was possible.

 

Some of the families from Liverpool actually met the Bloody Sunday families this year because of the similarities (Mass Cover up same government ect)

 

That apology has done a lot for some families in Derry,there was even scenes of celebration when it was announced and the same thing should happen tomorrow or in the near future.

[lifetime fan]

I dont mean remorse for the deaths I mean sorry for the cock up and the cover up

 

we'll soon see

 

 

I'd be very pleasantly surprised.

[WaltonRed]

I'll jump for joy

[WaltonRed]

Tony Evans ‏@TonyEvansTimes

Believe that HIP report will be shocking even to those who are familiar with the cause, tho only whispers. Hard to get hopes up

 

Tony Evans ‏@TonyEvansTimes

And it may be double-edged. The evidence could be extremely upsetting. Well, we'll see. Justice. Now. Please

[lifetime fan]

That double edged sword comment from Evans is concerning.

[Frankenhooker]

My wishes are with the families for tomorrow. It's going to be an extremely upsetting day, I just hope that these brave people can find some peace in the real truth.

 

JFT96.

[Strontium]

That double edged sword comment from Evans is concerning.

 

 

Well, it would certainly put Lawrenson's much-criticised comments from some months ago in context.

 

But this is all speculation, I don't think it really helps anyone.

[Mick R]

That double edged sword comment from Evans is concerning.

 

You can say that again. Can't wait for this to be over - obviously for the families, but on a personal level too.

[FanchesterCity]

An apology is all very well, and it's not Cameron's fault... but...

 

It would be far better to stand up and say "People lied". The public need it spelling out.

 

"sorry for the failings" will not have the correct impact on the public. He needs to be blunt and spell it out for the millions of Sun reading morons.

 

Those of us actually interested in justice know the fans were blameless, it's the dark cloud of blame or 'didn't help themselves' over all those fans that still looms and will remain until each and every one of their names is spoken of, and pronounced a victim of a shocking cover up.

 

This all presupposes that the evidence does actually exist. Let us hope and pray it does.

 

Let me rephrase that... I don't WANT the evidence to exist... because it would be far better if no cover up existed, but if it does... it should be revealed.