Who left the better 1st team Ged or Rafa?

[s(k)aturation]

Houllier left the better side, but I think Benitez was the better manager... if you can work that out!

 

Shankly or Paisley? Now that would be one really worth discussing...

[Il Fenomeno]

Voronin 39 games played for Liverpool 7 goals scored while Mellor played 22 games and scored 6 goals. Stats are often bullshit but there is no way that Voronin was miles better for Liverpool than Mellor was.

 

Again you're missing the point about naming players from the youth who are better then Degen. If they're not given time to develop of course they're going to be shit. If you spend the ages of 17-22 twiddling your thumb in the reserves with no progress of course you're going to be shit.

 

Rafa did some great things for the club, but his treatment of the academy was just as bad as Houlliers and pretending that in 6 years and a 100+ players later that not one of them was good enough to make our squad is a copout.

 

Look at Insua and Ngog, both fairly and consistently useless when they joined but Rafa showed faith and gave them games and 1st team coaching until they eventually improved. If both players had been left to rot in the reserves they'd be at the same level as when we signed them.

 

I didn't say Voronin was miles better for Liverpool, I meant Voronin was a miles better player than him in general.

 

Mellor struggled at Championship level while Voronin had a pretty decent scoring record in the Bundesliga.

 

I don't agree about the reserve stuff, if you're good enough you'd get moved up to the first team squad, like Pacheco, Kelly, Ngog, Insua etc.

 

There's also the issue with some players that they need time and games to develop, which is something we couldn't afford to do as they would cost us points along the way, just like playing Insua constantly did.

[CWD82]

It should be who left the better side/squad Moores or Hicks and Gillett?

 

People don't factor in this massive point about everything that is discussed regarding Liverpool over the last 5 years

[s(k)aturation]

It should be who left the better side/squad Moores or Hicks and Gillett?

 

People don't factor in this massive point about everything that is discussed regarding Liverpool over the last 5 years

 

OK then, Moores.

[foamer simpson]

Much better to get rid of Mellor and Warnock and bring in class like Voronin and Dossena, and if you're telling me that we didnt have one player in the 6 years of Rafa's reign as good as Philip fucking Degen then I'll know you're taking the piss.

 

I dont blame Rafa for not producing any players as good as Carra, Gerrard, Owen or Macca but he could of produced more fringe players from the ranks. Look at Taggert he gives a few youth players a few games every year and maybe a loan spell and after 3/4 seasons they're either good enough as back up or sold for millions.

 

 

Top post....... Repped

[Lucky Pierre]

The team that Rafa left was the team that was expected to win the league not 9 months earlier.

[Code]

The team that Rafa left was the team that was expected to win the league not 9 months earlier.

 

Who expected that?

[Lucky Pierre]

Who expected that?

Media, bookies, fans.

[Code]

Media, bookies, fans.

 

Fans like who?

 

Personally I predicted around 75p at best that season, to believe we should win it would be naive at best on top of that Rafa had alienated players like Riera and Benayoun during the season and Mascherano would also leave.

 

The only two players that would get into the team GH left would be Reina and Torres apart from Carra and Gerrard who obviously was there, but also in younger and better versions.

[thompsonsnose]

Ged, by miles.

[TheResonator]

Danny Murphy : Charlton: 2.5 Million

Igor Biscan : Panathanaikos: Free

Michael Owen: Madrid: 8 Million

Jerzy Dudek : Real Madrid: Free

John Arne Riise: Roma: 4 Million

Dietmar Hamann : Bolton: Free

El Hadji Diouf : Bolton: 3.5 Million

Steve Finnan: Espanyol: Undisclosed

Stephane Henchoz : Celtic: Free

Vladimir Smicer: Bordeaux: Free

Anthony Le Tallec: Le Mans: Undisclosed

Florent S.-Pongolle: Recreativo: 2.7 Million

Bruno Cheyrou : Rennes: Undisclosed

Milan Baros : Villa: 6.5 Million

Chris Kirkland : Wigan: 3.5 Million

Djimi Traore : Charlton: Free

Salif Diao: Stoke: Free

 

Total Sales: 30.7 million (+nominal undisclosed's)

 

That discounts, obviously, Carragher, Gerrard, and Sami who all stayed with the club. The other players (listed above) had all been sold by 2008, four years after Ged left.

 

Still, it is the equivalent of us selling Torres, Reina, Lucas, Babel, Kuyt,

Masch, Benayoun, Riera, Agger, Johnson, Insua, Aquilani, Dossena, Kelly, Skrtel, Maxi and NGog.

 

How much would we get for that lot, if we sold about four a year? I suspect we've made over 30 mill already (Masch, Doss, Benayoun, Riera).

 

I know the market has changed a lot, but there is not even a shadow of a doubt which team would have been worth more money. You only need to look at the sort of clubs Geds players moved on to in order to see which squad is better.

 

It isn't even close, really.

[stevienando]

ReDeus is Gary Birtles.

[Hades]

Houllier by a country mile. What the fuck Benitez, Purslow, Hicks and Gillet were playing at from 2008 onwards we'll never know.

 

Pako leaving , Macia getting greater influence. We should have seen it coming.

[Razoray]

The question is whose 1st team was better.

People are putting Carra in at CB and Finnan in RB for Ged's team even though he rarely played them there. Ged should not get that credit just because they were a success there in Rafa's time.

Ged's 1st team in 03/04 was:

Dudek

Carra Sami Biscan Riise

Murphy Gerrard Didi Diouf(Smicer)

Baros Owen

 

Rafa's 1st team more or less in 09/10 was:

Pepe

Johnson Carra Skrtel(Agger) Insua

Kuyt Lucas Masch Yossi

Torres Gerrard

 

In my opinion:

Dudek Reina - Reina

Carra Johnson - Carra (for his defensive side)

Carra Sami - draw

Skrtel Biscan - Skrtel

Insua Riise - Riise

Kuyt Murphy - Kuyt

Lucas Gerrard - Gerrard

Masch Didi - draw

Yossi Le Spit - Yossi

Gerrard Baros - Gerrard

Torres Owen - I'd go Torres but it's tight.

[corro]

Danny Murphy : Charlton: 2.5 Million

Igor Biscan : Panathanaikos: Free

Michael Owen: Madrid: 8 Million

Jerzy Dudek : Real Madrid: Free

John Arne Riise: Roma: 4 Million

Dietmar Hamann : Bolton: Free

El Hadji Diouf : Bolton: 3.5 Million

Steve Finnan: Espanyol: Undisclosed

Stephane Henchoz : Celtic: Free

Vladimir Smicer: Bordeaux: Free

Anthony Le Tallec: Le Mans: Undisclosed

Florent S.-Pongolle: Recreativo: 2.7 Million

Bruno Cheyrou : Rennes: Undisclosed

Milan Baros : Villa: 6.5 Million

Chris Kirkland : Wigan: 3.5 Million

Djimi Traore : Charlton: Free

Salif Diao: Stoke: Free

 

Total Sales: 30.7 million (+nominal undisclosed's)

 

That discounts, obviously, Carragher, Gerrard, and Sami who all stayed with the club. The other players (listed above) had all been sold by 2008, four years after Ged left.

 

Still, it is the equivalent of us selling Torres, Reina, Lucas, Babel, Kuyt,

Masch, Benayoun, Riera, Agger, Johnson, Insua, Aquilani, Dossena, Kelly, Skrtel, Maxi and NGog.

 

How much would we get for that lot, if we sold about four a year? I suspect we've made over 30 mill already (Masch, Doss, Benayoun, Riera).

 

I know the market has changed a lot, but there is not even a shadow of a doubt which team would have been worth more money. You only need to look at the sort of clubs Geds players moved on to in order to see which squad is better.

 

It isn't even close, really.

 

Shithot post. Totally agree.

[RoboRiise]

Reina

 

Arbeloa

Carragher

Agger/Sami

Aurelio/Riise(i guess)

 

Alonso

Masch

Gerrard

 

Kuyt

Yossi

 

Torres

 

 

Our best first team in a very, very long time.

 

Now? Minus: Arbeloa, Yossi, Mascherano, Alonso, and Sami. (I won't count Riise for the minus, despite him being tall, strong, good aerial defender for a fullback)

 

That's a lot of missing, unreplaced, class.

 

 

You can go into this in loads of depth but for a quick and dirty analysis (just how I like it) the fact that only one of the three I highlighted is still here is the single clearest reason for what's gone wrong.

 

Oh but it's the defence that are letting us down! I hear you cry. Yes they are - hardly surprising when you look at what we used to have playing in front of them to keep the pressure off.

 

Oh but it's the attack that's letting us down! I hear you cry. Yes it is - hardly surprising when you look at what we used to have playing behind it creating chances.

 

That central midfield three isn't just the best we had under Rafa, when all three were on form it's one of the best midfield units we've had in our history in my opinion, with pretty much the perfect blend of skills in Masch's tenacity and workrate, Alonso's distribution and Gerrard's impetus in driving the attacking play.

 

There is a gaping hole in the middle of the pitch into which our season has fallen. Meireles, if he can find consistency, could well be part of the solution - I thought he had a 'mare against Blackpool but he's a far better player than that performance suggests. If Cole can ever get back to the level he was at say three years ago he'll also be fine. Whether either of these things will eventually come to pass is one of life's mysteries at the moment as far as I'm concerned. Right now, as soon as we spot one leak and try to plug it up, we spring two more. Sometimes the only way to deal with that is to stop trying to fix the dam and build a new one.

 

As for the OP's question, I really think it's a tricky one to answer. For me, Ged left us with a more even spread of talent throughout the team, whereas Rafa left us with a side whose best players were better than Ged's but whose worst players were worse.

[Menc]

Clearly Benitez, to claim that Houllier left a decent squad is completely revisionist. The fact that Benitez got that squad to overachieve to the extent he did demonstrates what a good job he did in that first season. The squad we have now is nowhere near as bad as it currently looks, but they are massively underachieving at present. It needs a feat of management to turn it around again.