Roy Hodgson on 4-4-2

[mypost]

But the season before, same formation, he scored plenty and the team scored plenty.

 

And what do injuries have to do with the formation? They are more about the player rather than formation, surely, otherwise Drogba would always be injured as would Rooney.

 

I still think our best formation is the 4231, even though it didn't quite work well last season.

 

But again that was due to the sale of alonso, and when teams play a 4231, on of the defensive midfielders has to be very good at picking up the ball from the center backs and distributing it forward, something which we don't have now.

 

Germany in this world cup displayed how deadly a 4231 can be, with schweinsteiger playing the alonso role and dictating the play from deep, but they also did something very smart, THEY OVERLOADED THE FLANKS IN NUMBERS.

 

We need a player who can distribute the ball really well and is able to tackle, and i am afraid neither lucas or aquilani are suitable for this position.

 

The Bold word confirms what I've said all along. We need A player who can make a formation work, but this is a team sport, and we need a formation that works for the 10 outfield players, not 1.

 

Germany found to their cost the effect of the system against Spain. The system is fundamentally there to frustrate. When Spain scored, the Germans had to create. They couldn't do so, and are out of the WC because of it.

 

Injuries have a lot to do with it, as when the player on which the system is dependent is injured, then the system is useless, and you have to try something else. Last season, the coach was not prepared to try something else no matter what, and we know the result of it.

 

As earlier said by Red Phoenix, without that one player in it, the whole formation is fucked, and the consequences for us are there for everyone to see. To play 60 games with 1 formation dependent on 1 player with no flexibility is wrong, and doomed to failure. Yes it worked 2 seasons ago, but the reality is, it won no silverware, and last season, the opposition knew how to play against it. That means we have to try something else this year, or it'll be another year wasted.

[Brodie]

Think there is far too much emphasis on formations here. Its the personel, tactics and the mindset of the players that dictate whether an formation is attacking or defensive. As Zig said, the formation has to be fluid anyway, otherwise as a team you are far too predictable, and you suffer when key roles within the formation are off form.

 

Roy obviously knows his stuff, but its the ability to refine this to restrict the oppositions strengths and take advantages of their weakness, as well as making the most of your own strengths, that we havent seen him have the opportunity to do at the highest level yet. For him as a manager / coach / tactician I'm sure the next 12 months will be the biggest of his career, as he has to manage / massage the personalities as well as coping with the expectations of managing Liverpool. Thats the sort of thing you cant demonstrate on a whiteboard, and why perosonally I have some reservations.

[Paul]

More evidence of what seems to be Hodgson's thoughtful approach to management. He seems like a more subtle version of Rafa - as much of a deep thinker about the game, but crucially retaining a clear recognition of the fact that systems are worthless if the players aren't happy and motivated, which was Rafa's greatest flaw (sadly), in my opinion.

 

In my view, Rafa absolutely had the best system for the players we had. The 4231 clearly suited our fantastic spine and arguably, with Jovanovic coming in for Yossi, we are even better suited to that system down the flanks now (assuming we sign a solid left back). However, the cracks began to appear when the play-maker was sold. Without someone to conduct the orchestra from central midfield, it doesn't matter which system we use because we'll never get the ball forward to Gerrard and Torres quickly or effectively enough - as we saw last season.

 

There's obviously an argument that Gerrard can play that role, but I think that's a mistake for two reasons: firstly it limits him from exploiting his explosive attacking threat and secondly that very threat and the urge to utilise it (which is instinctive in him) mean that he can't fully commit to the job in hand of directing the play while protecting the back four. It's a job I could see him doing in three or four years time when his pace is on the wane. However, for the immediate future it'd be a huge error in my view, simply because it would frustrate him - and we all know how unintentionally destructive a frustrated Gerrard is, both to our football and to the morale of the other players.

 

So, primarily because of the unique talents of Gerrard and Torres, I'd stick with 4231. That said, to make it work, we need a player who can approximate what Xabi Alonso gave us so brilliantly for his five years at the club. The worrying thing is that such players are hard to find - and indeed impossible at Xabi's level; he's as unique in his own field as Gerrard and Torres are in theirs.

 

More concerning than that though is that before we get into such tactical considerations as finding the best system to suit the players we have, we need to actually have some players in two positions because we're fucked if we don't sign a left back and a centre forward for the very obvious reasons we saw last season. Such purchases will inevitably drain funds from the meagre budget available to recruit a central midfielder.

 

All in all, a very tough scenario for the new manager to walk into. What is mollifying however, is that he has a reputation for unearthing and/or rehabilitating players whilst working to a tight budget which is, after his man management and tactical ability, probably his most important quality for us right now.

[Delmar]

I found the things the he was talking about pretty basic, which they probably would be given the length of the video clips. Nothing thoughtful, nothing exciting, emphasis a lot on the defense.

 

And I tend to disagree that you need an Alonso kind of player to make 4-2-3-1 work. You just need players that can and want to pass on the ground, especially the CBs. The playmaker can be equally in the no 10 position. Of course it would be nice to have oe both in a DM position and no 10 position, like Spain have right now.

 

Germany lost against Spain because of the way the formation was executed, not because of he formation. They did not press high enough, the Dutch won't repeat that mistake...

[mypost]

So, primarily because of the unique talents of Gerrard and Torres, I'd stick with 4231. That said, to make it work, we need a player who can approximate what Xabi Alonso gave us so brilliantly for his five years at the club. The worrying thing is that such players are hard to find - and indeed impossible at Xabi's level; he's as unique in his own field as Gerrard and Torres are in theirs.

 

More concerning than that though is that before we get into such tactical considerations as finding the best system to suit the players we have, we need to actually have some players in two positions because we're fucked if we don't sign a left back and a centre forward for the very obvious reasons we saw last season. Such purchases will inevitably drain funds from the meagre budget available to recruit a central midfielder.

 

We can either have 4-2-3-1 or another forward to play another formation. No forward is going to volunteer to sit on the bench every week, while Torres hogs the 1 upfront to himself. Crouch didn't, Keane didn't, Babel didn't. If he does, he will complain about it privately and publically, and that is lethal for general squad morale. The 1 upfront is Torres bar injury/suspension/cup games. No one else will get a look in. That severely limits options in the transfer market too, not just upfront, but in other areas as well.

 

The formation is completely dependent on a handful of players, hence why we are dubbed a 2-man team. That is a terrible indictment of our use of transfer funds and the market, and the results have been seen on the pitch. It used to work, it doesn't work anymore, and it must be changed now.

[majed504]

We cannot have a play-maker in the No. 10 position, because as it has been repeated many times even by the foolish media that player can EASILY get marked out of the game, just look at what essien does to Gerrard almost everytime we played the chavs!

 

We NEED a player that will make the whole team around him tick, not players who can pass the ball on the ground.

 

If you watch barcelona when they play without Xavi, they are a completely different team than with Xavi, even if iniesta is playing because Xavi is the one who controls the tempo of the team, we used to have that in Alonso.

 

As for the players who can play this position, there are as many said here very few of Alonso's quality, but here are a few ( Even though I know they are out of our range )

 

1.Bastian Schweinsteiger.

 

2.Andrea Pirlo.

 

3. Gaetano D'agostino.

 

4. Ever Banega.

 

5. Michael Carrick ( They will never sell him to us)

 

Those are the ones i could think of off the top of my head, but I think i have another idea since we have very very limited funds, and here it is so PLEASE read it :

 

Holland in this world cup have been playing football that is very fluid in attack yet very defensive minded, and they have NO player who distributes the ball ( Van Bommel could be the one who does this, but his range of passing is not as good as alonso's and he is much more defensive minded than Alonso).

 

They simply have De jong and Van bommel breaking up play and distributing it to the front four attacking players to work their magic.

 

I think we can do that this season with limited funds, play mascherano and lucas again together in the center, and let the front 4 work their magic, and we have dirk who is integral to the current Dutch system!

 

We managed to grab Jovanovic, now we just need a back up striker and we could possibly play like the dutch, and it would be very deadly, but again we lack the quality upfront.

[ODZ]

I like the 4-2-3-1 formation but it only works if the "three" are very attack minded players bursting into the box and eliminating the weakness of not having a second striker (like Roy has said). If any of those three are regularly found in their own half when we have the ball, the striker is too isolated to matter and if he does drift wide, no one is there to take his place. Torres is extremely dangerous as a lone striker, but one of his weapons is drifting wide and we lose that when we play him alone. It is just too prone to become defensive under a safety first manager like Rafa. 4-4-2 is the best formation, its only problem is that it's countered by 4-2-3-1 because of the extra man in the middle, so the latter formation has become extremely popular, but 4-2-3-1 is weaker against inferior opposition, no doubt about it.

 

Gerrard is also getting a bit older so it's easier to take him out of the game when he's the second striker. I support a move to 4-4-2.

[mypost]

4-2-3-1 is weaker against inferior opposition, no doubt about it.

 

And that's the opposition we face most weeks.

[ODZ]

And that's the opposition we face most weeks.

 

Exactly.

[J B]

More evidence of what seems to be Hodgson's thoughtful approach to management. He seems like a more subtle version of Rafa - as much of a deep thinker about the game, but crucially retaining a clear recognition of the fact that systems are worthless if the players aren't happy and motivated, which was Rafa's greatest flaw (sadly), in my opinion.

 

In my view, Rafa absolutely had the best system for the players we had. The 4231 clearly suited our fantastic spine and arguably, with Jovanovic coming in for Yossi, we are even better suited to that system down the flanks now (assuming we sign a solid left back). However, the cracks began to appear when the play-maker was sold. Without someone to conduct the orchestra from central midfield, it doesn't matter which system we use because we'll never get the ball forward to Gerrard and Torres quickly or effectively enough - as we saw last season.

 

There's obviously an argument that Gerrard can play that role, but I think that's a mistake for two reasons: firstly it limits him from exploiting his explosive attacking threat and secondly that very threat and the urge to utilise it (which is instinctive in him) mean that he can't fully commit to the job in hand of directing the play while protecting the back four. It's a job I could see him doing in three or four years time when his pace is on the wane. However, for the immediate future it'd be a huge error in my view, simply because it would frustrate him - and we all know how unintentionally destructive a frustrated Gerrard is, both to our football and to the morale of the other players.

 

So, primarily because of the unique talents of Gerrard and Torres, I'd stick with 4231. That said, to make it work, we need a player who can approximate what Xabi Alonso gave us so brilliantly for his five years at the club. The worrying thing is that such players are hard to find - and indeed impossible at Xabi's level; he's as unique in his own field as Gerrard and Torres are in theirs.

 

More concerning than that though is that before we get into such tactical considerations as finding the best system to suit the players we have, we need to actually have some players in two positions because we're fucked if we don't sign a left back and a centre forward for the very obvious reasons we saw last season. Such purchases will inevitably drain funds from the meagre budget available to recruit a central midfielder.

 

All in all, a very tough scenario for the new manager to walk into. What is mollifying however, is that he has a reputation for unearthing and/or rehabilitating players whilst working to a tight budget which is, after his man management and tactical ability, probably his most important quality for us right now.

 

 

Good post - basically agree with all of that. Ideally you'd add a pacy wide player who can beat a man to that list, to help break down well-organised teams who just come to Anfield and defend. Though we've been waiting for him for a good 20 years now.

 

I guess realisically the way the new manager is going to fund these purchases is through the sale of Mascherano. He's blatantly on his way anyway, and I suppose in a sense it's a bit of luxury having a £30 million holding midfielder in your squad when you've got half a team to rebuild and no cash to do it with. Much as I love the crazy little bastard he's not a match-winner in the same way that Gerrard and Torres are, and isn't as fundamental to the way the team plays as Xabi was. But I'll still be gutted if he goes.

[Red Hot]

If Masch puts in a transfer request as mooted, the price will come down.

[Trumo]

How about 4-1-3-2? Considering one of the "2" will operate as a second striker, the system makes sure we don't get outnumbered in midfield, and that we have sufficient numbers in attack, both when we are attacking as well as the counter-attack. It could work because as things stand, we only have one proper defensive midfielder. If he leaves, we have another player who can cover the role.

[ODZ]

How about 4-1-3-2? Considering one of the "2" will operate as a second striker, the system makes sure we don't get outnumbered in midfield, and that we have sufficient numbers in attack, both when we are attacking as well as the counter-attack. It could work because as things stand, we only have one proper defensive midfielder. If he leaves, we have another player who can cover the role.

 

In a 4-4-2, you can easily make sure not to be outnumbered in the middle by having either one of the strikers dropping a bit to receive the ball or by having one of the wide midfielders tucking in when the ball is on the other flank. At the end of the day, it's 11 vs. 11 and adjustments can be made every game to suit the opposition.

[Red Nick]

This is all arse about face really

 

Bob Paisely decided on a system and style of play which evolved from shanks 433 to 442 and then got the players to play the system and this is exactly what all the best managers do like Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho.

 

An example of this would be a player like Glen Hoddle whilst a great player would never have fitted into a Bob Paisley team.

 

So what I am saying is were looking at this the wrong way the manager should pick the system he thinks will win most football matches and then get players to fit into that system, if that means some high level casualties so be it. If we went to 442 then Dirk Kuyt would be a big casualty for example, wheras he has proven his worth in a 4231

[Hermes]

Buy an attacking left back and 3-5-2 is the way to go. It covers the lack of pace, allows Johnson to get forward, frees up Agger to bring the ball out of defence and start attacks like Hansen.

[Red Nick]

Buy an attacking left back and 3-5-2 is the way to go. It covers the lack of pace, allows Johnson to get forward, frees up Agger to bring the ball out of defence and start attacks like Hansen.

 

That smacks of picking a system to suit the players which is fundamentally wrong in my book.

 

Johnson learns to defend as a right back, plays right midfield or is sold.

[zigackly]

The thing about any system where you are only going to have one attacker taking point is that you need to press high up the pitch to make it work, and we don't have quick enough defenders to do that.

 

This is partly the reason we were so badly found out last season because our point of attack was twenty or thirty yards deeper than it needed to be and when we did press up in search of a goal we defended like butter. Combine that with an inability to defend from set pieces or get the ball out from defence and we were committing suicide, game after game after game.

 

Fair enough, when it's working it's a great system but when it breaks down it's too intricate to easily fix. I think we need to either revamp half the team or try something different. For me the quickest patch we could apply is to have another forward supporting Torres if we can find one who works well with him. If that means 4-4-2 then so be it. We will beat most of the shite with that, and maybe we will have to drop someone deeper against the better sides.

 

Nick says Kuyt will be a casualty of 4-4-2; I disagree. Try him up with Torres and say your job is to work your arse off supporting him and scoring goals. Forget about defending; that's someone else's job.

Edited July 10, 2010 by zigackly

[Delmar]

We cannot have a play-maker in the No. 10 position, because as it has been repeated many times even by the foolish media that player can EASILY get marked out of the game, just look at what essien does to Gerrard almost everytime we played the chavs!

 

We NEED a player that will make the whole team around him tick, not players who can pass the ball on the ground.

 

I disagree. Xavi plays a bit withdrawn 10 for Spain, nobody marks him out as the other players are excellent passers, as well. Sure, if you have 9 hoofers and 1 passer, it is better to have the passer deeper. But he can still be marked out of he game, as happened to Alonso a couple of times when he played for us.

 

We need exactly what the media has been wanting lately for England, players who can pass well and control the ball in every position. Then the formations become fluid, e.g. starting 4-3-3 becomes whatever it needs to become depending on the game.

[majed504]

With the increase of 1 striker formations in the modern game, a 3-5-2 would see us suffer heavily against teams like that.

 

We are going to play with a 4 man defence, as roy clearly favours that approach, and it is the right approach in my opinion too.

 

We could have gone 433, but we can't due to us not having players like Xavi and Iniesta ( Although id love to see how Masch, Stevie, and Aquilani operate in a 433).

 

What is obvious is that we need an attack-minded left back, and a winger who can hug the touchline and whip in quality crosses and can also cut inside and score goals.

 

Roy is in a position where i do not envy him, he has to sell one of our top players I'm afraid, and if it is Torres then so be it, although I love Nando and I would hate it to see him leave us.

 

Tough days ahead for us Liverpool supporters, but at the end of the storm there's a golden sky, let's just hope that we see that sky soon enough before everything collapses.

[Hermes]

That smacks of picking a system to suit the players which is fundamentally wrong in my book.

 

 

Using a system that best suits the players you have is fundamentally wrong?

 

You need to buy another book.

[zigackly]

This is what Roy might try:

 

.............Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Insua*

.Maxi Gerrard Masch Riera*

.........Kuyt* Torres

 

Bench: Cavalieri, Skrtel, Kelly, Lucas, Babel*, El Zhar*, Ngog*

 

I think that can work if you ask Mascherano to stay when Gerrard goes and try to improve on the positions with asterisks.

 

It's a big ask when we're bootless though and just shows how far away we've allowed our squad to get, partly through lack of investment and partly through misuse of resources.

 

Think the only player I don't have any kind of place for is Aquilani. He will only fit into a system with three in midfield and that leaves us over-dependent on Torres still. Sell him and try to upgrade on Kuyt or at least get decent backup for him and Torres.

 

I'm expecting left back to come out of Roy's much vaunted "war chest". Let's hope we are also allowed to use the Yossi money on upgrading El Zhar. Same goes for Babel; sell him and use the money on another winger. We would need two then though and neither could be expensive.

 

If we have to sell Mascherano the whole jigsaw gets a little easier as long as we can re-invest that money. You can see where Torres's "four or five players" are needed though.

Edited July 10, 2010 by zigackly

[Guest simon]

This stuff just makes me buzz we have a top class manager who obviously knows llot and willing to play with much width does that mean we'll finaly get a top class winger? Of course when the owners are gone like.

[PaulMcC]

He played with 1 man up front for Fulham. Zamora. Gera played in behind so it was a 4411. I'd rather have the wide players further forward in a 42312.

 

He also played Murphy and Etuhu as, essentially, holding players.

[Hermes]

I'd rather have the wide players further forward in a 42312.

 

 

I doubt if that will be allowed.

[Monster Masch]

If we keep our players he will use Gerrard and Torres in the way he used Dempsey or Gera off Zamora.