When/If Benitez departs

[stevensr123]

I don't want him to leave until the cancer is gone 1stt. I mean who the fuck would replace rafa?

[Paul]

A weird mixture of huge relief and lingering disappointment. It's not possible to be a Red and be untouched by Istanbul: it epitomised everything about the club that makes us the greatest there is as that wonderful congruence of players, fans and manager occurred to create the greatest final in the history of the game. On top of that, he produced the best football I've seen from a Liverpool team since the 80s during the (ultimately fruitless) climax of last season's title tilt. When those two factors are placed alongside the other things I admire him for (improving Traore, proving Peter Crouch is a top player, setting up the team tactically for specific matches, converting Gerrard into a devastating forward and capturing the signatures of three truly great players in Pepe, Xabi and El Nino), I simply cannot write him off.

 

That said, he is the architect of his own downfall. He is seriously flawed in his judgement in the transfer market, utterly appalling in his handling of players, entirely lacking in subtlety or even mere strategy when it comes to club politics and completely obsessed with tinkering with a winning formula. Those four flaws, sadly, far outweigh his significant achievements for me.

 

However, there will always be a lasting regret that last season didn't quite bear fruit. I'm convinced that it wasn't a fluke: the players had too much conviction and played with too much fluency and aggression for that to be the case. Had he just been a little more circumspect in his decision-making and retained the squad that began the last campaign, I'm convinced we'd be on the cusp of the title now. Alonso, Arbeloa, Hyypia and Keane add up to the answer to most of our problems from this most humiliating of seasons. He could have funded a new deal for Xabi by selling the chronically shite Dossena, Degen, Babel and Voronin, had he so chosen to do. That he did not will be an eternal source of frustration for me.

 

So, in summary, he has to go. However, fuck knows what will come in his wake. I can't help feeling that the dark days are here for some time yet, though. Suddenly The Mancs' 26 years without a title doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as it could have been.

[Coro]

He could have funded a new deal for Xabi by selling the chronically shite Dossena, Degen, Babel and Voronin, had he so chosen to do. That he did not will be an eternal source of frustration for me.

 

 

a) Xabi wanted to leave regardless.

 

b) Any money generated through player sales was unlikely to be reinvested back into the side.

 

Agree with most of what you say though.

[Paul]

a) Xabi wanted to leave regardless.

 

b) Any money generated through player sales was unlikely to be reinvested back into the side.

 

Agree with most of what you say though.

 

A very old argument this - and one that is ultimately pointless as it can't be proven either way - but Xabi only wanted to leave because Rafa treated him badly (a key flaw, as I pointed out above). On your second point, I didn't want us to buy any more players; I wanted us to actually have a smaller squad, but retain the quality we had and spend any incoming cash on a new deal for one of our best players (Arbeloa might have stayed for a pay rise, too). Certainly, I'd never have signed Johnson, Aquilani or The Greek - we wouldn't have needed them with those far superior players retained.

 

It's all moot, but I'll never shake the feeling of "If only..." about this campaign. That said, as the "If only..." entirely relates to Rafa's flaws, I'm merely reinforcing my view that he has to go. It's just so infuriating that a man who is so obviously talented in some areas is so equally (I was going to say limited, but I think it's worse than that) self-destructive in many others.

[Coro]

A very old argument this - and one that is ultimately pointless as it can't be proven either way - but Xabi only wanted to leave because Rafa treated him badly (a key flaw, as I pointed out above). On your second point, I didn't want us to buy any more players; I wanted us to actually have a smaller squad, but retain the quality we had and spend any incoming cash on a new deal for one of our best players (Arbeloa might have stayed for a pay rise, too). Certainly, I'd never have signed Johnson, Aquilani or The Greek - we wouldn't have needed them with those far superior players retained.

 

 

Alonso confirmed that his mind had been made up long before any move took place and a big part of that was because the club/Rafa tried to sell him. You said we should have tried to tie him down to a new deal but he was long gone and there was no chance of that. With Arbeloa, he wanted to leave in 2008 but was persuaded to stay on. Once Madrid came calling last summer there was no looking back for him.

 

By August we were in a real mess. After the Keane saga, the Alonso saga and with little in the way of finance to influence the situation the manager takes a massive gamble on a player like Aquilani. It was a poor decision in signing the Italian and has since only served to compound things. The signing of Johnson now looks completely unnecessary but at the time was done in the confidence that more funds were available.

 

Political wrangling, poor managerial decisions, add to that our desperate financial situation and last summer was a time of complete confusion and upheaval, the managers mistakes of the previous year coming home to roost and little in the way of room left for him to manoeuvre or to rectify the situation.

[Sarb24]

I'll be over the moon

[Paul]

Alonso confirmed that his mind had been made up long before any move took place and a big part of that was because the club/Rafa tried to sell him. You said we should have tried to tie him down to a new deal but he was long gone and there was no chance of that. With Arbeloa, he wanted to leave in 2008 but was persuaded to stay on. Once Madrid came calling last summer there was no looking back for him.

 

By August we were in a real mess. After the Keane saga, the Alonso saga and with little in the way of finance to influence the situation the manager takes a massive gamble on a player like Aquilani. It was a poor decision in signing the Italian and has since only served to compound things. The signing of Johnson now looks completely unnecessary but at the time was done in the confidence that more funds were available.

 

Political wrangling, poor managerial decisions, add to that our desperate financial situation and last summer was a time of complete confusion and upheaval, the managers mistakes of the previous year coming home to roost and little in the way of room left for him to manoeuvre or to rectify the situation.

 

I think you're missing the point mate as yours was implicit in mine. I was imagining a world where Rafa was capable of not tinkering/pissing off key players/fucking up in the transfer market. My "If only..." scenario was obviously impossible as Rafa has proved he's incapable of addressing his faults, in my view; I take that as read, sorry - hence the confusion.

 

What he needs is a counterpoint to his weaknesses in the shape of one or more members of his team who have the skills he lacks. As I've said before, in Paco and Pako he seemed to have that. However, since they left, his flaws have been indulged (largely) to the destruction of the team.

[GJM]

I think his legacy will be a cause for much disagreement among Liverpool supporters for many years to come. This seems appropriate for one who has been at the centre of so much disagreement between supporters and disharmony within the club during his reign (not all down to him, of course).

 

Even his finest moment is not a clear cut thing - was he a tactical genius for recovering a 3 goal lead, or was he tactical dunce for leaving out Hamman and starting with Kewell? It's an issue that seems to typify his time in charge.

 

Never has a manager left me feeling so schizophrenic about the team. We have played some great football under Benitez - and not just at the tail end of last season either. But we have also played a lot of football that is probably worse than I have seen under any previous manager. And that's not just this season.

 

Is he a great coach that will, in time, shake off those elements of his approach that seem to thwart all his positive aspects? Or is this it - is he doomed to repeat his mistakes time and again as he slides down the manaerial pole?

 

No idea. Which in itself says a lot as, with all other managers that have left us since Kenny, I was absoultely certain that their best days were behind them.

[Coro]

I think you're missing the point mate as yours was implicit in mine. I was imagining a world where Rafa was capable of not tinkering/pissing off key players/fucking up in the transfer market. My "If only..." scenario was obviously impossible as Rafa has proved he's incapable of addressing his faults, in my view; I take that as read, sorry - hence the confusion.

 

What he needs is a counterpoint to his weaknesses in the shape of one or more members of his team who have the skills he lacks. As I've said before, in Paco and Pako he seemed to have that. However, since they left, his flaws have been indulged (largely) to the destruction of the team.

 

Ah yes, i see what you mean now, sorry.

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Benitez should never have alienated Alonso in the way he did. There was obviously disagreements between the 2 at some stage during the 2007/8 season but Alonso was so key to the way we played, such a valuable asset and should never have been treated as if so disposable. The same goes for Sami Hyypia and to a lesser extent Robbie Keane. Those 3 instances have come home to roost for the manager and have only been exacerbated by the fact that the club is struggling financially. At times were Benitez has needed to be more responsible, his distancing of himself from his players has come back to haunt him and his stubbornness has impacted badly on the prospects and stability of the team.

[jackofdk]

Funny how Hermes thinks Benitez have signed so many players that wouldn't have gotten a game for the reserves under previous managers, when the reserves under his beloved Houllier was a graveyard for wasted money with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou and Arphexad featuring instead of a nursing school for talent as it is now.

 

As for the original question, I agree 100 percent with Brownie's first post. I will be sad to see Rafa leave as I really wanted it to work for him. Still his time is definitely up.

[chrisbonnie]

ill have mixed feelings myself

 

i must admit, mostly, ill be overjoyed, as his style of football has never been the most entertaining to watch, but like anything, when you're winning, you kinda forget about it,

 

but every season we had a shit spell, and every season we knew we couldnt win the league, and that always freaked me out

 

but ill never forget winning the european cup in Istanbul, im 28 years old now, and i can honestly say, that was THE BEST NIGHT OF MY LIFE!

 

the overwhelming feeling for weeks leading up to the games, the near sleepness nights on the days leading up to the 25th, and then the game itself

 

at half time it was over, i was "just happy we made the final", then them magical 9 minutes ,the extra time, i reckon i lost a few years from my young heart that night, but it was worth it

 

ill remember him for signing Xabi Alonso, possibly my favourite player in my adult life

 

and of course ill remember him for giving us Fernando

 

but it gets sour then, selling Xabi :whoops:

 

playing like utter tripe, being embarrassed against shite teams, playing dire football and never "having a go"

 

unfortunetly that will be the bitter taste left by Rafa for me im afraid

 

im happy he's going, ill wish him all the best, but i look forward to our future now, and cannot wait to see who we get as our next manager

[Moo]

Name me somebody who will cause so much trouble, sign so many average players, play so defensively and all this while winning zilch in 4 seasons.

 

Yankapologist.

[Hermes]

Yankapologist.

 

Alonso, Parry, Paco...not link with the yanks there. He's caused trouble at every club he's been with.

[navbasi]

Rafa has been sacked by Madrid. Zidane takes over.

[stringvest]

Amusing to hear the words 'conspiracy' and 'manipulation' rolled out again by the master. 

[Boss]

it's like watching people on holiday in Hiroshima before the bomb dropped.

[dirk grout]

Joke of a club. What do they want? Why sack him now? They're 2 points behind Barca and won their champions league group. They sack managers that have just won them the European cup. Biggest bunch of ingrates in the history of sport.

[G Richards]

Without knowing enough about the details, I can see who the main players are in the whole circus and it's not hard to see some sort of player power at work. Rafa is no respecter or ego or standing in the game. For him it's a big chess set and there's a game to be won. It's one of his most endearing qualities, but unfortunately in the slime infested pit that is modern football, you have to be a bit more PR savvy and play the game with buttering people up a bit. (Maybe you don't, but I'm suggesting that to get along, you do). 

 

So there's the interpersonal thing with big stars, and then there's also the style of play. Rafa is not defensive, as his best teams scored and scored again. And he would have got there with Real Madrid. But before he gets it there he strips it back and imposes his system, which first and foremost is solid and organized, and then on top of that, the garnish is added. 

 

It's a real shame because Rafa is from Madrid and I'm confident that if they would have left him to do his work he would have succeeded. It's such a short term and knee-jerk reaction, and as such, Rafa is better off out of it. 

 

Where he goes next is anyone's guess. He has the tools and the ability to manage anyone, but unfortunately his reputation and standing in the wider game is less than what it should be, given his knowledge and talent. 

 

While the likes of buffoons like Roy Hodgson earn millions for essentially part time work running a high profile national team like England, I fear that Rafa will have to operate a level down now, and it will have to click for him to get a gig at a top, top team again. 

 

Whether he has the hunger to do that again remains to be seen. 

[stringvest]

Man Utd?

[TheHowieLama]

Rafa is set to earn millions for no-time work. Thats how good he is.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Fucking hell mate, even the likes of Hodgson etc would have us looking to attack instead of defending. We wont get this shit about 'controlling the game' nor substitutions by the clock not on how the game is going!

.

[TheHowieLama]

Hermes had some pearlers in there

[aRdja]

That's very harsh if true. He finished top of the CL group, definitely still in the conversation for La Liga. He had a torrid run of injuries earlier in the season too. Joke of a club Real.

[Boss]

Apparently he found out via the news reports. He hasn't even received a phone call from Madrid.

[Russ Atmosphere]

Everyone on the first page had correctly deduced that Benitez wasn't perfect. Part two they didn't quite have a handle on.