What about our human rights?

[Guest TK-421]

they're born fick, you see, may as well leave them.

 

Once a ficky always a ficky innit.

[Fowlers God]

No, you're not. You're just making a proposal that is in keeping with your general belief system, that's not playing devil's advocate, it's called being yourself.

 

 

If you have read any of my posts on this subject on this thread you will have found that I found the article racist and prejudice.

 

What is my general belief system then Dirk??

define:rehabilitation - Google Search

 

To restore to useful life, as through therapy and education or To restore to good condition, operation, or capacity.

 

 

I think that we have been using this word in the wrong context. In this case/paedophillai case/rape case you also need to change the behaviour and way of thinking of the individual to overcome those urges. this is not rehabilitation.

[Dirk]

If you have read any of my posts on this subject on this thread you will have found that I found the article racist and prejudice.

 

What is my general belief system then Dirk??

define:rehabilitation - Google Search

 

To restore to useful life, as through therapy and education or To restore to good condition, operation, or capacity.

 

 

I think that we have been using this word in the wrong context. In this case/paedophillai case/rape case you also need to change the behaviour and way of thinking of the individual to overcome those urges. this is not rehabilitation.

 

You implied that he's forfeited his rights, iirc.

[Fowlers God]

You implied that he's forfeited his rights, iirc.

 

This is correct. His right to stay in the country if the law states he should leave and deported he should leave. His right then to having a family in this country has gone, due to his actions no one else's

[Dirk]

This is correct. His right to stay in the country if the law states he should leave and deported he should leave. His right then to having a family in this country has gone, due to his actions no one else's

 

So we can now see how you made the connection with this point.

 

Playing devil's advocate here then. If this was the case and he then re-offends should the panel be bought before a judge. Not 100% to be sentenced under a custodial sentence unless deemed so- but tried in a sense.

 

 

You think he shouldn't be here. That's a fact. The next point is just an extension of that point. You weren't playing devil's advocate, you were being yourself.

 

I didn't accuse you of being racist, btw, or any other such thing, I merely said that the point you made was an extension of your own beliefs, not the devil's.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Dirk

[Fowlers God]

I meant with the panel comment for any crime committed and a panel is involved before release should the panel that deems someone fit to return back to the community standforth to their commitment to protecting the communtity upon the release and when a re offence takes place?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I meant with the panel comment for any crime committed and a panel is involved before release should the panel that deems someone fit to return back to the community standforth to their commitment to protecting the communtity upon the release and when a re offence takes place?

 

For what crime?

 

They won't be able to get it right every single time. Some people go and re-offend. Some don't. You can't catch them all. Obviously they have standards to meet, but that's internal not criminal.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Numero Veinticinco

[Strontium]

They won't be able to get it right every single time. Some people go and re-offend. Some don't. You can't catch them all.

 

 

Fowlers God appears to adopt the Pokemon approach to criminal rehabilitation: "Gotta catch 'em all!"

[Fowlers God]

Well, if we change the parameters; I don't want any pedophiles living next to me, no matter what country they happen to be from. I do believe they have a right to be fairly sentenced and then treated and rehabilitated, though. If, when judged by a panel of experts, he or she is fit to return to life in the community, then I believe that they should, having served their lengthy sentence, be able to try. Even if that is under supervision.

 

Are they the scum of the earth? Yes. Should they be treated harshly? Yes. Should they have their entire life destroyed, even after rehabilitation by experts? I'm not so sure that's fair.

 

For what crime?

 

They won't be able to get it right every single time. Some people go and re-offend. Some don't. You can't catch them all. Obviously they have standards to meet, but that's internal not criminal.

 

 

Well there is no need for a panel if you are to serve the sentence that the jusdge gives. However sometimes people are released early on an "experts", "Proffesionals" oppinion. Surely then in these cases if they are judged to have made mistakes in releasing someone early they need to take responsibility for this. I am not saying that in all cases they will have made a mistake however if they do and that mistake has caused say another victim to be raped from a sex offender then they should be bought to a trial for that. If it was deemed that no one could no and that all the correct signs of rehabilitation where there then so be it. The reoffender will face the consequences on his own.

[RJ Fan club]

Fowlers God appears to adopt the Pokemon approach to criminal rehabilitation: "Gotta catch 'em all!"

 

How do you get a Peado onto a Chinese Death bus?

 

 

 

Pokemon*

 

 

 

 

 

 

*yeah the original time that gag was done was shit too

[Dirk]

Fowler's God wouldn't know his mens rea from his actus reus even if it jumped up and bit him on his plaintiffs.

[Rico1304]

A quick Google search shows that this bloke groomed the two vulnerable girls who were 13 at the time and in care. The Star is one source but the evening news at the time stated that the investigation was part of an initiative to prevent young girls being groomed by older men (usually Asian - not my words).

 

I also remember seeing a programme (Panarama or suchlike) about this being a particular problem in some towns but as it was un-PC to talk about it was very hard to tackle. I used to work in Oldham and there were plenty stories about this being a huge problem. I will caveat that by saying that Oldham is a shit hole with plenty of mongs about.

[Fowlers God]

Fowler's God wouldn't know his mens rea from his actus reus even if it jumped up and bit him on his plaintiffs.

 

Maybe not. But at least I speak what I think and not from a pompous idea of what people think I ought to be saying

[melons]

Who mentioned anything about sending people away to die? But if they're criminals and not British citizens then they should be deported regardless of the consequences that await them.

 

Now we can't deport criminals because it violates their human rights. We must accept a limitless amount of European citizens into our country to take advantage of our free health and education because that's also their human rights. Executing murderers or torturing terrorists is also frowned upon because that too breaches human rights.

 

I'm content with my tax contribution being spent on complete strangers just as long as its spent wisely. The problem is the money is NOT being spent wisely and this government has been pissing money up the wall for the past decade.

I think I should have the human right to retain more of my income and pay less towards the state, but of course that's something the EU would never agree to since it will reduce the money we send to Brussels.

 

To just what level do you suggest people on benefits become subjective too? And the infringement of the rights of the children brought up on that benefit?

 

Brussels, no the UK never sees any money coming back at it from that direction, do we?

 

 

 

Well, if we change the parameters; I don't want any pedophiles living next to me, no matter what country they happen to be from. I do believe they have a right to be fairly sentenced and then treated and rehabilitated, though. If, when judged by a panel of experts, he or she is fit to return to life in the community, then I believe that they should, having served their lengthy sentence, be able to try. Even if that is under supervision.

 

Are they the scum of the earth? Yes. Should they be treated harshly? Yes. Should they have their entire life destroyed, even after rehabilitation by experts? I'm not so sure that's fair.

 

Top post, have to spread it i'm afraid.

 

 

Fowler's God wouldn't know his mens rea from his actus reus even if it jumped up and bit him on his plaintiffs.

 

To be fair I had to google each of those words.

[kelster]

Maybe not. But at least I speak what I think and not from a pompous idea of what people think I ought to be saying

 

Man of the street FG, man of the street.

[King Emlyn]

Fowlers God appears to adopt the Pokemon approach to criminal rehabilitation: "Gotta catch 'em all!"

Damn sight better than "gotta release em all"

[Strontium]

Damn sight better than "gotta release em all"

 

 

Yes, the "lock them up and throw away the key" approach has worked so well for the likes of the UK and US, hasn't it?

[Section_31]

Yes, the "lock them up and throw away the key" approach has worked so well for the likes of the UK and US, hasn't it?

 

It's probably stopped plenty of people getting raped, robbed and murdered in all fairness, seeing as rapists, robbers, and murderers can't rape, rob, and murder when they're behind bars. Lest we forget, this is afterall, the primary function of a prison system.

 

Just to prove this theory, we should let them all out for day, give them luncheon vouchers, and see what happens.

[Strontium]

It's probably stopped plenty of people getting raped, robbed and murdered in all fairness, seeing as rapists, robbers, and murderers can't rape, rob, and murder when they're behind bars.

 

 

I think you'll find that plenty of raping, robbing and murdering goes on behind bars too.

 

Anyway, I've generally no objection to serious and dangerous criminals being locked up. It's the people at the other end of the scale who shouldn't be there.

[King Emlyn]

It's probably stopped plenty of people getting raped, robbed and murdered in all fairness, seeing as rapists, robbers, and murderers can't rape, rob, and murder when they're behind bars. Lest we forget, this is afterall, the primary function of a prison system.

Just to prove this theory, we should let them all out for day, give them luncheon vouchers, and see what happens.

 

ZING

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

It's probably stopped plenty of people getting raped, robbed and murdered in all fairness, seeing as rapists, robbers, and murderers can't rape, rob, and murder when they're behind bars. Lest we forget, this is afterall, the primary function of a prison system.

 

Just to prove this theory, we should let them all out for day, give them luncheon vouchers, and see what happens.

 

Why is everybody going to crazy extremes on this one?

 

You've got one person sarcastically talking about bringing back death penalty and you've got the sarcastic line about releasing rapists or murderers. Nobody is suggesting that rapists, murderers and other violent criminals shouldn't face long term incarceration. Those are the sort of people that can't, at least without rehabilitation, be trusted to function lawfully within society. The type of people that are locked away for our protection.

 

You know that these are not the types of people that it is suggested should be dealt with in other ways. There are plenty of other people that go to jail, only to come out a much harder, more clued up criminal and a much more twisted human being as a result. It makes it very hard for them to become functioning members of society again. It is a vicious spiral and, unless the root causes are tackled, there is no positive end for these people. Simply shutting our problems away in a prison because we can't be bothered to face them head on is no better than 'out of sight, out of mind'.

 

What makes me laugh is that the very people contesting the 'letting prisoners out' approach are the ones likely to have spouted the 'these scumbags are costing 'us' millions every year and live lives of luxury' line.

[RoboRiise]

 

I'm Tony Montana, a political prisoner from Cuba and I want my fuckin' human rights. Now!!

[Section_31]

Why is everybody going to crazy extremes on this one?

 

You've got one person sarcastically talking about bringing back death penalty and you've got the sarcastic line about releasing rapists or murderers. Nobody is suggesting that rapists, murderers and other violent criminals shouldn't face long term incarceration. Those are the sort of people that can't, at least without rehabilitation, be trusted to function lawfully within society. The type of people that are locked away for our protection.

 

You know that these are not the types of people that it is suggested should be dealt with in other ways. There are plenty of other people that go to jail, only to come out a much harder, more clued up criminal and a much more twisted human being as a result. It makes it very hard for them to become functioning members of society again. It is a vicious spiral and, unless the root causes are tackled, there is no positive end for these people. Simply shutting our problems away in a prison because we can't be bothered to face them head on is no better than 'out of sight, out of mind'.

 

What makes me laugh is that the very people contesting the 'letting prisoners out' approach are the ones likely to have spouted the 'these scumbags are costing 'us' millions every year and live lives of luxury' line.

 

It was a bit of an extreme example, but I don't see the point in comparing the UK to the USA on crime. A bloke around here got done for supplying coke and heroin recently and was given a suspended 12 month sentence, I remarked at the time that if that'd been in California, he'd have been looking at about 10 years for that, and that's no exageration. You just can't compare them on any level, not the scale or nature of social problems, of poverty, of crime, of law enforcement, of prison systems.

 

For every person who's in jail who should probably have been given a non-custodial sentence, there's probably two who've not been sent down who should have been, for a varity of reasons, people who just take the piss.

 

I get what you're saying about finding other solutions to these issues, but how much effort, money etc would it take? Is it even possible.

 

There's a group of about nine smackheads who prowl my local town centre who are responsible for about 90% of town centre crime, arson, theft, assaults. Now, in an ideal world, they wouldn't be smackheads or indeed, scumbags - but what do you do? Scoop them all up and shove them in a cell, thus making everyone else's life so much better and safer? Or engage in some all out assault on their addiction, living conditions, social outlook, psychology etc, is that even possible on any kind of grand scale?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

A bloke around here got done for supplying coke and heroin recently and was given a suspended 12 month sentence

 

I'd need to know much more about the situation before passing judgement on that.

 

I remarked at the time that if that'd been in California, he'd have been looking at about 10 years for that, and that's no exageration.

 

Or, if he was in Florida, he could have pulled a Richard Paey (25 years for 15 counts of drug trafficking and other charges including fraud; released in 2007 after serving three and a half years). Elsewhere in the US he could have pulled a Genarlow Wilson (ten years for aggravated child molestation; released in 2007 after serving two years).

 

For every person who's in jail who should probably have been given a non-custodial sentence, there's probably two who've not been sent down

 

I'll be honest, Sec, 'probably' just doesn't cut the mustard on such a serious subject.

 

I get what you're saying about finding other solutions to these issues, but how much effort, money etc would it take? Is it even possible.

 

Could it possibly cost any more than it is now? Not just in prison staff, but in clothes, food, drink and accommodation over the space of 20 years.

 

There's a group of about nine smackheads who prowl my local town centre who are responsible for about 90% of town centre crime, arson, theft, assaults. Now, in an ideal world, they wouldn't be smackheads or indeed, scumbags - but what do you do? Scoop them all up and shove them in a cell, thus making everyone else's life so much better and safer? Or engage in some all out assault on their addiction, living conditions, social outlook, psychology etc, is that even possible on any kind of grand scale?

 

 

You take the result of these things out so that it breaks the cycle today and prevents the problem tomorrow. To prevent the problem today, you deal with these people under the law.

 

The people you talk about might well deserve a prison sentence under the law. If they are truly responsible for 90% of crime in the town centre, the police would have been onto them like a fucking flash. If not, they are not doing their job.

[Fowlers God]

1. I'd need to know much more about the situation before passing judgement on that.

 

 

 

 

 

2. Could it possibly cost any more than it is now? Not just in prison staff, but in clothes, food, drink and accommodation over the space of 20 years.

 

 

 

 

3. You take the result of these things out so that it breaks the cycle today and prevents the problem tomorrow. To prevent the problem today, you deal with these people under the law. .

 

1. Really??? Do you need to know any more infomation, Surely the fact that someone was selling a potentially life destroying drug to someone is not worthy of a custodial sentence? No?Even if its the first offence surely you would still need to teach them a lesson. Giving them a fine is not really a punishment considering all the money they have made selling the stuff. Also how can we be sure its the first time they have actually sold it? First time they have been caught yes!

 

2. Dont forget that while this new plan is going ahead, we still need to keep the original system in place costing what it does now and increased rises in cost due to inflation. Where would the get said extra money from? Taxes I hear you say. Well why the fuck should I pay more taxes to keep these scum bags/rehabilitate these low lifes,murderes,rapist,paedo's, in order for them to be socially intergrated back into the mere basic of human existence?? Is this not against my human rights????????

 

3. Surely the idea of prison is also to prevent i.e the drugs not being on the street??? You may say that well someone else will come along and take the place, but surely that is the same answer if you were to rehabilitate example A. Surely the justice system needs to intergrate both of our ideas for this world to get better??? Maybe better rehabilitation is needed under the current prison terms. You still need to tell people right from wrong. You cant let a person rape someone and then ship them off to said rehabilitation clininc where they come in at set appointments. You may say that this rehabilitation does happen in the current justice system and in prisons under ther current prison terms. Then if it does it dont Bloody work. yeah prison doesnst work the either under the same argument. Agreed But at least it keeps the cunts of my street for longer.