Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Guest Pistonbroke]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

Don't quite understand this, Labour were demanding elections throughout voting down May's proposals, now everybody wants elections, except Labour?

 

 

 

Because they want No Deal taking off the table. 

[Strontium]

17 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Out of interest, do you think somebody can love freedom and still have issues with or not want to be part of the Liberal Democrat’s political party? 

 

This is one of those "Not all X are Y, but all Y are X" situations, isn't it.

[Strontium]

6 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Don't quite understand this, Labour were demanding elections throughout voting down May's proposals, now everybody wants elections, except Labour? 

 

The suspicion among political types is that Labour's private polling makes grim reading, which makes sense when you consider how keen the other opposition parties are for an election.

[SasaS]

10 minutes ago, Pistonbroke said:

 

Because they want No Deal taking off the table. 

 

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

The suspicion among political types is that Labour's private polling makes grim reading, which makes sense when you consider how keen the other opposition parties are for an election.

 

Isn't the best way of taking no deal off the table by winning the elections?

I get that the polls are now probably not in Labour's favour, but surely it's pretty obvious this parliament is stuck and who knows what could happen by mid-December, May also had great polls but the actual results didn't support the optimism.

[Strontium]

I mean, No Deal has already essentially been taken off the table. There's no majority in Parliament for it, and I can't see that changing.

 

What there is a majority for is the Withdrawal Agreement, so a general election is really Remain's last throw of the dice, because we sure as hell aren't getting a second referendum on the deal.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

2 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

 

Isn't the best way of taking no deal off the table by winning the elections?

I get that the polls are now probably not in Labour's favour, but surely it's pretty obvious this parliament is stuck and who knows what could happen by mid-December, May also had great polls but the actual results didn't support the optimism.

They want it taken off before an election, because otherwise you'll end up crashing out without a deal should the Tories win an election and basically ride roughshod over everything. 

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Pistonbroke said:

They want it taken off before an election, because otherwise you'll end up crashing out without a deal should the Tories win an election and basically ride roughshod over everything. 

 

Aren't the Tories equally divided over no-deal Brexit, meaning they would have to campaign on a no-deal Brexit platform to be able to do this? Which would then be what people actually want.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

3 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Aren't the Tories equally divided over no-deal Brexit, meaning they would have to campaign on a no-deal Brexit platform to be able to do this? Which would then be what people actually want.

 

The Tory party will do what is best for the Tory party if re-elected. They can claim all sorts during an election, they rarely stick to their promises and Johnson and his front bench would just push through what they themselves want. We all know that voters on all sides are gullible enough to swallow the bullshit, voting the Tories in would not be an indication of what the people want as far as Brexit goes. It is way more complicated than that. The true reflection would be a second referendum, now that the real issues are out there, hence why certain quarters are dead set against holding one. 

 

The Lib Dems are just hoping the win back voters on the back of all this, without Brexit they'd still be the irrelevant party, especially with that crazy Tory lite  bitch at the helm. 

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Pistonbroke said:

 

The Tory party will do what is best for the Tory party if re-elected. They can claim all sorts during an election, they rarely stick to their promises and Johnson and his front bench would just push through what they themselves want. We all know that voters on all sides are gullible enough to swallow the bullshit, voting the Tories in would not be an indication of what the people want as far as Brexit goes. It is way more complicated than that. The true reflection would be a second referendum, now that the real issues are out there, hence why certain quarters are dead set against holding one. 

 

The Lib Dems are just hoping the win back voters on the back of all this, without Brexit they'd still be the irrelevant party, especially with that crazy Tory lite  bitch at the helm. 

 

Whilst Labour are sacrificing their possible election victory just to save the nation from a no-deal Brexit?

If Johnson and his front bench could push through what they want, they'd already have done it. Even if they win, they are likely to meet the same obstacles. 

[TheHowieLama]

Plus everyone knows what they want -- so unless a fair portion of left leaning support wants the same thing it should be easy to position against.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

2 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Whilst Labour are sacrificing their possible election victory just to save the nation from a no-deal Brexit?

If Johnson and his front bench could push through what they want, they'd already have done it. Even if they win, they are likely to meet the same obstacles. 

 

 How so, they haven't got a majority, they are not in a position to push anything through. That changes if they have a healthy working majority. As I've said, Tories will always think of the party first. We shall see though, not really anything more to say on the matter apart from going round in circles. 

[Gnasher]

On 24/10/2019 at 07:23, Denny Crane said:

 

Around 60% of Labour seats were pro leave. Labour can't win an election without keeping and adding leave voters. Thankfully the majority of leave voters are not the parody that end up on Question time or foaming at the mouth on social media but just fed up with politicians as a whole. 

 

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.

 

These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/

Not surprisingly over 60% of labour seats are pro leave. The fact is leave outgunned remain in most  working class areas.

 

The reason is imo fairly simple, most working class areas are historically left wing so voters would be wary of EU privatisation, a free enterprise system in which immigrants are a commodity to boost profits ie fruit picking, warehouse, building work etc all data shows the poor lose out where widespread immigration occurs. Working class areas would obviously reject the EU austerity mantra. Working class areas would feel uneasy with the eu links to banks and nhs titp trade deals. The majority of working class are not racist so would reject a nhs worker from Ghana not having the same rights as workers from Hungary.

 

In summary working class areas are a far way to the left of posters in this thread.

[Barrington Womble]

I'm pretty sure if labour were as far ahead in the polls as the Tories are, we'd be seeing labour crying for an election and the Tories trying to hold tight. The problem is, there won't be a point when labour will be ahead in the polls between now and whenever a new election is. As of today it is pretty certain no deal is off the table. So I don't see how labour can keep saying no to an election, even if it is one they will likely lose. 

 

The sad thing is after the May and Johnson shambolic governments, labour should be pissing it, if for no reason everyone should be afraid of the Tory incompetency. 

[cloggypop]

24 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 Working class areas would feel uneasy with the eu links to banks and nhs titp trade deals. 

The EU rejected TTIP. The UK was the biggest push factor within the EU in favour of it. 

 

You may find Dispatches interesting this evening. 

 

@C4Dispatches: THREAD: 1/10 Dispatches has found that secret meetings have taken place between senior civil servants and representatives of US pharmaceutical firms where the price the NHS pays for its drugs has been discussed.

[Dr Nowt]

38 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

I'm pretty sure if labour were as far ahead in the polls as the Tories are, we'd be seeing labour crying for an election and the Tories trying to hold tight. The problem is, there won't be a point when labour will be ahead in the polls between now and whenever a new election is. As of today it is pretty certain no deal is off the table. So I don't see how labour can keep saying no to an election, even if it is one they will likely lose. 

This is it. There won’t be an ideal time now for an election which ticks all the boxes.
 

There won’t be a risk-free election in terms of Johnson not potentially coming to power for a full term and all that means, both in terms of Brexit and everything else. There won’t be an election in which a victorious Johnson couldn’t subsequently just overturn No Deal legislation legally should he want to. The provision of about 16 Henry 8th clauses in his steaming turd of a deal, allowing him to amend various parts of it without having to do so via fresh legislation, says it all about what level of dirty tricks and backdoor machinations we can expect if he wins, let alone overturning any theoretical legislation now vetoing No Deal. 
 

That can all be the case and this still be the least worst time we’re going to get for an election though. Fuck it being after he’s got some version or other of his deal passed and be going into it with most of our media presenting/enabling the view of him as the PM who Got Brexit Done in the face of the corrupt efforts of parliament/EU.

 

He’s broken his October 31st pledge. He’s broken his I won’t under any circumstances ask the EU for an extension pledge. He’s got Farage and his lot eager to directly counter the long calculated “anyone happy with an extension just wants to stop Brexit” with “Even an extension was preferable to this deal because that’s Brexit in name only”.

 

This is pretty much it now, if you want a chance of Remain/a less damaging Brexit and/or just want to see that absolute cunt stopped from doing any more damage. If you want Brexit in any form/prefer a Tory government to such an extent Johnson as PM for 4.5 years is medicine you’re prepared to swallow, then that level of warped belief system won’t be changing any time in the coming months.

 

Just have to get on with it now and hope a largely deeply uninspiring and hopelessly divided bunch of opposition parties, leaders and affiliates can somehow play a middling at best hand of cards like complete experts against the house.

 

No pressure.

[Dr Nowt]

The second that extension is in writing is the time for a vote of no confidence. Take the wheel out of the malignant arsehole’s hands and set the agenda rather than have him setting it, armed with the innumerable grave mistakes he’s made and wall-to-wall lies he’s told.
 

However, as we all know, what you will then get is a group of people all fighting among their selves over it while the car heads for a cliff, despite having literally fucking months to prepare for the moment.

[Megadrive Man]

I think a huge number of MP's across all parties don't want an election right now as they are very likely to lose their seats. Even ones with majorities of over 10,000 are worried in some areas. 

 

Based on what current parties are offering, I really don't see what an election would solve right now?

 

Both the Tories and Labour would lose seats. We'd face a hung parliament with Lib Dems as the third largest party with a lot more seats than they currently have.

 

Now, considering their current polices, we should see this lead to a 'coalition of chaos' with Corbyn leading, supported by the Lib Dems and maybe SNP?

 

What I think would happen is that we'd see a return of the Tory Lib Dem coalition with a Johnson Swinson 'Dream Team' at the helm.

 

Now, again considering their current policies you have to wonder how a pro brexit and an ultra remain party would work? My gut feeling is that one of the parties would completely sell out their voters to support the government. I wonder which one that would be?

 

   

[Anubis]

Swinson banging on about The People’s Vote that’s never fucking going to happen. 

[Denny Crane]

No surprises here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Strontium]

9 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

What I think would happen is that we'd see a return of the Tory Lib Dem coalition with a Johnson Swinson 'Dream Team' at the helm.

 

If this is what you genuinely think, rather than trolling/political posturing/electioneering, then you honestly must be insane.

[Megadrive Man]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

If this is what you genuinely think, rather than trolling/political posturing/electioneering, then you honestly must be insane.

So why do the Lib Dems always refuse to work with Labour?

 

In a hung parliament scenario can you  say with 100% confidence that the Lib Dems wouldn't form a government with the Torys again?  

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, MegadriveMan said:

So why do the Lib Dems always refuse to work with Labour?

 

In a hung parliament scenario can you  say with 100% confidence that the Lib Dems wouldn't form a government with the Torys again?  

 

The Lib Dems don't always refuse to work with Labour. For instance the Lib Dems are presently in government with Labour in the Welsh Assembly, and were in coalition with Labour in the Scottish Parliament between 1999 and 2007. And were prepared to back a suitable Labour candidate as PM for a putative interim government. That the Lib Dems are reluctant to make the least popular opposition leader in history the Prime Minister is a function of political reality rather than an unwillingness to work with Labour.

 

I am beyond certain that there will be no Tory/Lib Dem government following the next election.

[Megadrive Man]

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

The Lib Dems don't always refuse to work with Labour. For instance the Lib Dems are presently in government with Labour in the Welsh Assembly, and were in coalition with Labour in the Scottish Parliament between 1999 and 2007. And were prepared to back a suitable Labour candidate as PM for a putative interim government. That the Lib Dems are reluctant to make the least popular opposition leader in history the Prime Minister is a function of political reality rather than an unwillingness to work with Labour.

 

I am beyond certain that there will be no Tory/Lib Dem government following the next election.

I meant to form the government with. They refused it with Brown, Mlliband and Corbyn, yet they haven't ruled it out with Johnson, so don't pretend its anything to do with Corbyn. 

 

I appreciate that Corbyn isn't as popular as someone like the honorable Nick Clegg, but he is the most successful leader of an opposition of all time and the obvious choice to lead an interim government.   

 

Well I hope you're right. When I look at the current Lib Dem party and its backers it seems more like a Tory light party to me than an actual Liberal Democrat party, which is why I think they will jump back in to bed with them at the first opportunity. 

 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Another kick in the bollocks for the Blond assassin. Yet he just bangs on about it being a great deal, despite voting against a slightly better one than May's. 

[lifetime fan]

A December election is a fucking stupid idea for all parties bar the tories. 
 

I really can’t see why the SNP and libs are pushing for it so hard.