Besiktas (A) - 26th Feb

[Jairzinho]

Getting into the champions league is worth fucking millions to the club! That's before you even go down the attracting and keeping players road.

 

People in here saying they don't want to get into the CL next season a bit confused as to how modern football actually works?

 

Nobody is saying they don't want us to get Champions League football. They are saying that as we have a manager that is fucking shit in Europe, and we don't actually try and sign any top class players that wouldn't move here without CL football, then perhaps the importance is overstated.

[Major Tom]

Yeah, doubt Lovren and Lallana would have moved here if we didn't have Champions League football.

 

Happy to differ on the general point I made.

 

Even though I probably agree with you on the specific points you make here.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

He can't rotate it because it is unbalanced. It is unbalanced because we didn't address the right areas in the summer. The first eleven is sound after that it is a mess, a hotch potch of the not good enough, take our back up strikers where the manager prefers to play a lad out of position than play one of them, but sits three of them on the bench often.

 

We have a championship at best level back up keeper and the options at centre half are just woeful, so much so that a young kid who is a midfielder is in there at the mo and on merit....

 

He has been unable to properly rotate because the wheels would just come off if he did, to be fair to him he sorted us out around Christmas and our form has been good, but it's been a case of can't change it fir fear if it going back to shite and due to that we are a tired team who have done well to hang ib as we have playing game after game with little or no changes

 

A good and accurate post in full. And about the unbalance the biggest problem remains the same, we only have one quality striker. And he's currently off form/not match fit.

[Jairzinho]

Happy to differ on the general point I made.

 

Even though I probably agree with you on the specific points you make here.

 

Well, which players wouldn't have moved here without CL football?

 

We don't make that sort of signing. We won't pay the wages.

 

We also attracted Luis Suarez to the club without CL football.

 

I want to be in the CL because I want us to win major trophies, but if it's just going to be an embarrassing failure, six games that simply disrupt our league form, then we drop into the Europa League, and further disrupt the league form, forgive me for not placing the same importance on qualifying as others do. I'd rather win the FA Cup every season, frankly. If the owners fucked Moneybollocks off and next summer bought three £40m players on £150k p/w, then it would be of utmost importance. To attract that sort of player in the first place, and to help us financially with paying their wages.

[Boss]

I'm happy we're out. The fixture congestion, the pointless away games on terrible potholed pitches across Europe, the long haul flights, players getting no rest or preparation for big games. We haven't got the squad capable of managing the extra games during the run in, nor is Rodgers adept enough at rotating it effectively.

 

Our focus is the league, knock the mancs out of the qualification places, consolidate our top 4 credentials, further setting them back as opposed to trying to qualify through the backdoor via the Europa alongside them.

[RoboRiise]

Robo looks awfully a lot like Morpheus!

 

Mate if I looked as cool as Larry Fishburne I wouldn't be sat here in front of the PC at 10.25pm, I'd be out getting my dick wet.

[Harry Squatter]

The whole gameplab seemed to be just hold on for the entire game whilst not extending ourselves. Once they scored we had no clue and never looked like scoring.

 

Hopefully we can focus on the top 4 and the FA Cup now, although I would have loved to gone further as I personally live is playing any type of European football.

[Phoenix]

If a forward player says to the manager I want one, there's no chance a centre back gets the nod

You telling me if Emile Heskey asked to take one, the manager would have said yes over someone else?

[magicrat]

He can't rotate it because it is unbalanced. It is unbalanced because we didn't address the right areas in the summer. The first eleven is sound after that it is a mess, a hotch potch of the not good enough, take our back up strikers where the manager prefers to play a lad out of position than play one of them, but sits three of them on the bench often.

 

We have a championship at best level back up keeper and the options at centre half are just woeful, so much so that a young kid who is a midfielder is in there at the mo and on merit....

 

He has been unable to properly rotate because the wheels would just come off if he did, to be fair to him he sorted us out around Christmas and our form has been good, but it's been a case of can't change it fir fear if it going back to shite and due to that we are a tired team who have done well to hang ib as we have playing game after game with little or no changes

Some very good points. I don't think our squad is quite as unbalanced as you say but we certainly don't have the resources to go all the way in the Europa and put in any sort of challenge for top 4. 

[Neo]

Mate if I looked as cool as Larry Fishburne I wouldn't be sat here in front of the PC at 10.25pm, I'd be out getting my dick wet.

Touche my friend, touche. However I think Samuel L. Jackson gets his willy wet a lot more often than Larry. It just seems like it.

[lebron]

Why do you think so?

 

The six games may persuade Coutinho, Sturridge and Sakho to stay for another season, I guess.

 

A combination of not taking European competition very seriously, and a manager that seemingly has no idea how to manage in Europe, makes it an odd priority on a footballing level. We don't actually sign players that wouldn't come here without Champions League football either.

 

We'd be better off targeting the two domestic cups and hoping for the occasional stars align type title challenge.

 

Simple, because of the money and the prestige that comes with it.

 

I think we took the CL seriously enough, unfortunately it coincided with a horrible run of form in the league, and Rodgers sacrificed a game away at Real (do you think we would have won whoever were playing?), gambling on us to beat Basel at home. We weren't too far away from succeeding, hard to plan for someone getting sent off minutes after they've been introduced... I was actually more angry at him benching those who had performed admirably in Madrid...

 

We are where we are, we won't pay the highest salaries, even more so without CL football. Regular qualification would go some way to correct that, as would our increased profile/income throughout the world. Making more money is the only way for us to attract better players who will want even more inflated salaries.

 

I disagree about Rodgers not being able to manage in Europe either, but we need a few reinforcements if we're going to go beyond the group stage, that's for sure.

[Major Tom]

Well, which players wouldn't have moved here without CL football?

 

We don't make that sort of signing. We won't pay the wages.

 

We also attracted Luis Suarez to the club without CL football.

 

I want to be in the CL because I want us to win major trophies, but if it's just going to be an embarrassing failure, six games that simply disrupt our league form, then we drop into the Europa League, and further disrupt the league form, forgive me for not placing the same importance on qualifying as others do. I'd rather win the FA Cup every season, frankly. If the owners fucked Moneybollocks off and next summer bought three £40m players on £150k p/w, then it would be of utmost importance. To attract that sort of player in the first place, and to help us financially with paying their wages.

You're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to stats. Would you really draw such an absolute conclusion based on such a small sample size? I mean with regard to Rodgers in Europe.

 

I don't expect him to be this bad next year. As people - probably including you - it's not ideal to have a manager learning on the job. But that's what we have. And I think he has proven he can adapt, and I think he will. If it's as bad next year, I may side with you. But, at the moment, it's far too early to be basing anything - let alone future club strategies - on this one European campaign.

[lebron]

Getting into the champions league is worth fucking millions to the club! That's before you even go down the attracting and keeping players road.

 

People in here saying they don't want to get into the CL next season a bit confused as to how modern football actually works?

 

Not really, they have just found a way to criticise a manager they've wanted out since May after some very good results recently have made it hard to...

 

Harsh, but mostly true...

[Red House]

It's a real conundrum for me, I just don't see the point in striving for 4th when we're only going to fuck it up because our manager hasn't got a clue in Europe. Fair enough he might eventually learn but that isn't where we should be at.

 

I'm not saying we should be sacking him by the way, just lamenting the situation we have. I can't find it in me to want to yearn for 4th when it's just fucking pointless. 

 

I suppose we'll get some decent cash every few years for our better players.

 

Yep, I would say that's spot on. We've all been pretty excited lately at the prospect of fighting out for that top 4 finish, but results like this just put the whole endeavour into perspective. I sadly do not see any point in us being in Europe under Rodgers either (besides the money). Tbh, at least you hold some optimism that he might eventually learn. I must admit that I don't. For me, it's not really a learning or experience issue. I think he's just tactically very weak. He has so much to answer for for each of our European eliminations under him. He completely destroyed our momentum with a stupid substitution against Zenith when we looked odds on to get back into the game, same shit against Ludogorets when we were completely in control and he suddenly decided to go defensive bringing Moreno on and surrendering possession to them, and I think his managerial inertia today has been documented enough throughout this thread.

 

Our only chance in Europe is a chess player-like manager, as Rafa was for us, who can predict the opposition manager tactical moves, as well as countering and exploiting the other team's strengths and weaknesses. Tactical nous is about so much more than merely being a one-trick pony that merely finds a system that works (still took Rodgers several trial-and-error attempts to get there) and sticking to it till it works no more. Might be a good strategy in the league but you're not going to outplay stronger teams by sticking to your usual brand of football (unless you already have the strongest team around as Guardiola with Barca). It hasn't paid off for Wenger, it won't pay off for Rodgers.

[Captain]

I'm not sure what's worse for our European reputation; not being in the CL at all or failing like we have this season.

[sir roger]

From half time onward everybody bar the defence & goalie were shocking . I don't think I have ever seen us make so many poor decisions & we seemed incapable of passing to a red shirt.

 

Think it is a blessing in disguise in as much as we are blowing for tugs as a squad , the League is more important and the FA Cup has less games. If we weren't going to win it ( I don't think we were going to come close tbh ) we might as well go out now.

 

Next season with our manager and young players another season on in their European education we might be good for a decent tilt at the CL or EL, but it came a  bit early this season I reckon.

[an tha]

Our co-efficient won't have been helped by this result so if we do get top 4 pot three probably awaits again in the champions league

[ratcatcher]

From half time onward everybody bar the defence & goalie were shocking . I don't think I have ever seen us make so many poor decisions & we seemed incapable of passing to a red shirt.

 

Think it is a blessing in disguise in as much as we are blowing for tugs as a squad , the League is more important and the FA Cup has less games. If we weren't going to win it ( I don't think we were going to come close tbh ) we might as well go out now.

 

Next season with our manager and young players another season on in their European education we might be good for a decent tilt at the CL or EL, but it came a  bit early this season I reckon.

 

Spot on. Mignolet was equal to everything all game. He had no chance with the goal. Skrtel, Toure, Moreno were boss all game. Can put in a decent shift but fatigue affected him late on. Even lovren did ok in the defence. Mid field and two out of the front three were shocking.

[Dr. J]

You're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to stats. Would you really draw such an absolute conclusion based on such a small sample size? I mean with regard to Rodgers in Europe.

 

I don't expect him to be this bad next year. As people - probably including you - it's not ideal to have a manager learning on the job. But that's what we have. And I think he has proven he can adapt, and I think he will. If it's as bad next year, I may side with you. But, at the moment, it's far too early to be basing anything - let alone future club strategies - on this one European campaign.

 

I'll bite: What do you think he's learned about European football, at least between getting shit out of the Cl and now the first knockout round of the El?

[Jairzinho]

You're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to stats. Would you really draw such an absolute conclusion based on such a small sample size? I mean with regard to Rodgers in Europe.

 

I don't expect him to be this bad next year. As people - probably including you - it's not ideal to have a manager learning on the job. But that's what we have. And I think he has proven he can adapt, and I think he will. If it's as bad next year, I may side with you. But, at the moment, it's far too early to be basing anything - let alone future club strategies - on this one European campaign.

 

This is kind of the crux of it for me. He may end up being a good manager in Europe, but the likelihood of changing sufficiently from his current ability next season is slight. I wouldn't expect him to be really good in Europe, given his lack of experience of managing big football clubs. But he has to learn fast, because frankly it's bad enough that we've got a manager with so much learning to do as it is.

 

And it's not just the stats, five points from six games doesn't read well in a CL campaign especially in a group with Basel and Ludogorets, but to be honest it was much much worse than even the points total suggests. 

 

My opinion on him hasn't really changed, there should be an appraisal at the end of the season. He may well be saved by the fact we don't have particularly ambitious owners. Certainly not to match the size of club they own.

[Major Tom]

I'll bite: What do you think he's learned about European football, at least between getting shit out of the Cl and now the first knockout round of the El?

It wasn't bait, doc.

[Major Tom]

My opinion on him hasn't really changed, there should be an appraisal at the end of the season. He may well be saved by the fact we don't have particularly ambitious owners. Certainly not to match the size of club they own.

The owners seem to be as ambitious as their pockets allow. If we want more ambitious owners, we need ones with deeper pockets.

[xerxes]

My heart was proud of the lads tonight, they gave their all and only fell short in the lottery of a penalty shoot out. Besiktas are a very strong side, in good form coached by a canny experienced coach with a wealth of international experience, going out is no disgrace. We bossed the first half, and only lapsed once in the second when the home side took the advantage.

 

My head tells me that this augurs poorly for our future prospects. Brendan has had a poor Euro record this season, and some will rightly ask whether he is a good match for a side of our Euro pedigree and aspirations. This was our best chance of winning a CL spot. Being out of Europe may help us, but key competitors Arsenal ( probably), Spurs and Man U are also out. The perfect combination of circumstances which put the wind in our sails last season is not going to happen again.

 

Going out while Everton go through is a bitter pill, in both senses.

[Jairzinho]

The owners seem to be as ambitious as their pockets allow. If we want more ambitious owners, we need ones with deeper pockets.

 

I disagree. I think we could spend exactly the same amount of money in a different manner and be far more likely to win trophies. Dump the philosophy of only signing predominantly young players, on low wages, that'll have a good sell on value, regardless of whether we actually need players in that position. Aim to sign two/three/four players a summer, rather than seven/eight/nine. Stop signing anyone that we'd consider a "squad" player. Don't buy anyone that wouldn't improve the first eleven.

[Dr Nowt]

My heart was proud of the lads tonight, they gave their all and only fell short in the lottery of a penalty shoot out. Besiktas are a very strong side, in good form coached by a canny experienced coach with a wealth of international experience, going out is no disgrace. We bossed the first half, and only lapsed once in the second when the home side took the advantage.

 

My head tells me that this augurs poorly for our future prospects. Brendan has had a poor Euro record this season, and some will rightly ask whether he is a good match for a side of our Euro pedigree and aspirations. This was our best chance of winning a CL spot. Being out of Europe may help us, but key competitors Arsenal ( probably), Spurs and Man U are also out. The perfect combination of circumstances which put the wind in our sails last season is not going to happen again.

 

Going out while Everton go through is a bitter pill, in both senses.

 

Ha!  It's good to see incarceration has done little to diminish your chirpiness, Stuart.