Sakho

[eeyore]

Sakho is just a bit of a blue waffle pussy isn't he.

 

I'm pining for hyypia more than suarez at the moment.

[VladimirIlyich]

Sakho isnt a pussy,he just isnt playing very well at the moment/not good enough for a top four looking side.

Delete as appropriate.

[Pureblood]

As has been said, he had loads of time and touches on the ball against Norwich, and has done in other games too.

 

Granted, but from that diagram it doesn't look like many were pinged in to central areas. it doesn't look that progressive to me, anyway, although it's just one game.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

Any chance you could post a diagram of Toure's passes, or maybe Skrtel's from a recent-ish game?

 

The only way to see how progressive he is will be by comparing him to other CBs.

[Pureblood]

Any chance you could post a diagram of Toure's passes, or maybe Skrtel's from a recent-ish game?

 

The only way to see how progressive he is will be by comparing him to other CBs.

I think more relevant to the point I'm making would be to compare it to one of Sakho's games when we were playing three at the back, to see if the ball is being played into different areas.

 

A lot of the passes v Norwich look like they're being played out to Moreno or across to Kolo.

[skend04]

I think the passing stat is secondary to how he is currently defending. Which is like a dog. A drunk one. The first and fourth goals were his to deal with and he made a hash of them.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

I think more relevant to the point I'm making would be to compare it to one of Sakho's games when we were playing three at the back, to see if the ball is being played into different areas.

 

A lot of the passes v Norwich look like they're being played out to Moreno or across to Kolo.

 

Yeah, but to add context to that, our midfield were absolutely dire in the Norwich game. It looked like they'd passed the night nurse around.

 

Is the argument that he doesn't play progressive passes, he doesn't play them in a back four, or he's not our best passing CB?

[Stu Monty]

I think more relevant to the point I'm making would be to compare it to one of Sakho's games when we were playing three at the back, to see if the ball is being played into different areas.

 

A lot of the passes v Norwich look like they're being played out to Moreno or across to Kolo.

 

I think you'd want to compare a better game. Don't think anyone is claiming he was at his best with the ball or without it on Sat. I'd imagine he had similar games in a three. Lots of the passes in a three will have gone to the same players too.

 

As I said before, if we're not arguing over his ability to play those passes then you'd have to very much look at the manager, and not the player, if that isn't used in whichever system he uses. 

 

The LCB in a 4-3-3 should have more passing options, not less, than in a 3-5-2. The major difference being that the LB is on the touchline and the LW can drop inside into that channel that he can play it into (where you can also now still have your 10 popping up).

[Pureblood]

Is the argument that he doesn't play progressive passes, he doesn't play them in a back four, or he's not our best passing CB?

My argument is that he will make fewer passes to our creative players as part of two centre backs rather playing as LCB in a three. I think the Norwich game bears that out but it's just one game. If you look at the diagram he's not pinging many passes into "number 10" type areas or central areas. It's mainly going out to Moreno or back across towards Toure.

[Torvald Utne]

Erratic.

 

Needs to somehow link his brain to his feet so he doesn't look like Bambi on ice when the ball is coming his way.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

My argument is that he will make fewer passes to our creative players as part of two centre backs rather playing as LCB in a three. I think the Norwich game bears that out but it's just one game. If you look at the diagram he's not pinging many passes into "number 10" type areas or central areas. It's mainly going out to Moreno or back across towards Toure.

I think drawing any conclusions from the Norwich game might be a bit misjudged. The defence and midfield were awful and for large periods we had no natural number 10. You also won't find many who'd say it was even a semi-decent Sakho performance.

 

Either way, most balls played by a CB will be the type you describe, but the key is in the ones that do penetrate the midfield; they'll always be more anomolous looking, but are significant nonetheless. I'm not sure what you expected to see. Is there a CB you think is a good ball player against whom you could compare?

[3 Stacks]

I will always maintain that Sakho is good enough, here's why.

 

For me, the form of any of our defenders depends on the organization of the team. In the first 10 games of Klopp's reign, he set us up very well, we were organized, the midfield was providing good protection to the back 4, and every defender we had looked good.

 

The last month in a half, team organization has been poor because we've had so many problems scoring goals that Klopp is free-wheeling it and the players are just running up and down the pitch to try to create chances. Our defenders then look poor because the midfield isn't structured correctly.

 

It's the same thing that happened constantly under Rodgers and it happened to Klopp at Dortmund as well. In his final season there, Hummels and Subotic were made to look like complete clowns because Klopp was desperate tactically and the midfield was all over the place. Think of John Terry, he was the best defender in the league last year. Now a year later he's had an absolute nightmare. You can attribute this to Mourinho panicking, his inability to set up the team and the poor form of Matic and Fabregas. Terry didn't suddenly just turn into a mess.

 

Sakho is a first choice French international when fit. He has deficiencies sure but he is good enough. If he's not the answer than I dont know who is. It's the same idea with Lovren and Moreno. They've both looked more than competent when the team is well set up. That's because they are pretty talented players but very few defenders in world football will look good with a poor tactical plan, a mess of a midfield in front of them and a shite goalkeeper behind them. I would say Thiago Silva is just about the only defender in the world who can look good no matter the situation around him.

 

If Klopp can get us organized and make Sakho and Lovren the partnership with Matip to deputize, we'll be fine. Bar selling Skrtel, who's style simply isn't the right defensive fit for a big team, we can't keep buying and selling defenders, especially when what we have is already good enough.

[ZonkoVille77]

A quick DM and we'll be OK again. It's been that way for years. Nothing new.

[stringvest]

A quick DM and we'll be OK again. It's been that way for years. Nothing new.

 

Doesn't even need to be quick, just someone mobile, agile and with energy.  And any good.  Someone who can read the game and can anticipate and react in a timely manner.  Someone who can position themselves to minimise the danger.  Someone who can make the correct decisions more often than not with and without the ball.  Someone who can track a runner and stay with his man.

 

We don't need a world beater, but we need a significant upgrade.  

[A_S]

'You're only as good as your last game' is a phrase taken to the nth degree on here. None moreso than with this guy.

[Pureblood]

The LCB in a 4-3-3 should have more passing options, not less, than in a 3-5-2. The major difference being that the LB is on the touchline and the LW can drop inside into that channel that he can play it into (where you can also now still have your 10 popping up).

 

Surely he'll have fewer passing options in front of him as there will be one less player ahead of the ball.  

[Pureblood]

Either way, most balls played by a CB will be the type you describe, but the key is in the ones that do penetrate the midfield; they'll always be more anomolous looking, but are significant nonetheless. I'm not sure what you expected to see.

 

I acknowledge that Norwich is only one game but it wouldn't surprise me if subsequent games saw a similar pattern.  

 

What I would expect to see from a CB supposedly pinging them into a number 10 is something more like this, from the Villa game last year when we were playing a back three.  A big batch of passes played into a central area conspicuous by their absence in the Norwich game. Both Sakho and Coutinho completed the full 90 minutes of this game.

 

 

Anyway, let's see what happens when Coutinho comes back or perhaps keep a tag on how many times Sakho picks out Lallana etc. for the rest of the season.  My guess would be not as many as was the case when playing LCB in a three, if I'm wrong then fair fucks I'll hold my hands up and Sakho is Baresi.  

[TheHowieLama]

So he has been doing it?

[Stu Monty]

Surely he'll have fewer passing options in front of him as there will be one less player ahead of the ball.  

 

Nope. Think about where they are on the pitch. 

 

With three at the back you very rarely have that extra wide-man offering in an inside channel. If anything it's a shorter pass to a CM that you lose by not having a four man box midfield that you get with the 3-5-2 (3-4-2-1 more accurately). The type of pass we are talking about should be on just as often if not more if the shape is right. 

 

I really wouldn't take the Norwich game and try to extrapolate it out to bigger truths about him or the system. As I say, I'm sue you could pick a game he played poorly in three and see the same things.

 

The point is that he isn't erratic. He may be overly-ambitious for your tastes but he's one of the best passers of a football in his position in the league (if not the best). Hence why we can have this conversation about him, and not many other centre backs. He looks ungainly, which leads to people who don't watch him much thinking he doesn't know what he's doing. I can see why people who only occasionally see him might think that; it kind of befuddles me when I see Liverpool fans saying it though. There's a bulk of evidence to tell you what he's doing: taking responsibility for the ball and trying to find feet (as far forward as possible) instead of giving the ball away.

 

It boils down to if you want a lad who can do 6/10 passes and never get one wrong or a lad that can do 10/10 passes but will get more of them wrong. I'll take that risk/reward ratio. I don't think we've got the luxury of not doing so.

[Paco]

good game tonight.

 

leg heavily strapped. prob be injured after this.

[Pureblood]

Played well, made me look like a right twat with about 138 passes to Lallana and Firmino,  

[stringvest]

passing game back to normal.

[stringvest]

Nope. Think about where they are on the pitch. 

 

With three at the back you very rarely have that extra wide-man offering in an inside channel. If anything it's a shorter pass to a CM that you lose by not having a four man box midfield that you get with the 3-5-2 (3-4-2-1 more accurately). The type of pass we are talking about should be on just as often if not more if the shape is right. 

 

I really wouldn't take the Norwich game and try to extrapolate it out to bigger truths about him or the system. As I say, I'm sue you could pick a game he played poorly in three and see the same things.

 

The point is that he isn't erratic. He may be overly-ambitious for your tastes but he's one of the best passers of a football in his position in the league (if not the best). Hence why we can have this conversation about him, and not many other centre backs. He looks ungainly, which leads to people who don't watch him much thinking he doesn't know what he's doing. I can see why people who only occasionally see him might think that; it kind of befuddles me when I see Liverpool fans saying it though. There's a bulk of evidence to tell you what he's doing: taking responsibility for the ball and trying to find feet (as far forward as possible) instead of giving the ball away.

 

It boils down to if you want a lad who can do 6/10 passes and never get one wrong or a lad that can do 10/10 passes but will get more of them wrong. I'll take that risk/reward ratio. I don't think we've got the luxury of not doing so.

 

not all of our fans watch us all that often.  I think that would help to explain it.  He's had a few average games, but he's on his way back.  

[Stu Monty]

The thing is with him, and it was on show tonight, is that he's the one taking responsibility. Defensively he's the one dealing with seemingly everything anyone throws at us, as Toure and Moreno watch him and hope he can win everything for them, and offensively he's starting almost every attack and all of our build up play goes through him. He's the one trying to force the game and grab it by the throat. Even with the times when there's confusion or hesitation it's usually him getting the blame because he's going to sort a ball that someone else could or should have sorted (and second guessing if he can do his job and theirs at the same time).

 

I wish a few more of them would be brave enough to do that, and risk carrying the can occasionally.

 

Or we can all just be Benteke's. Doing fuck all proactive and passing it off to someone else to do something.

[Trumo]

He was a lot better tonight than he was at Norwich.