Go fuck yourselves FSG

[TD_LFC]

1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

The don't need to have deep pockets and find us like an oil club. They could have just done what normal people do buying a distressed business. Put some decent investment in to start things and let the business flurish. As part of the purchase they committed to resolving the stadium situation. Yet they're not investing to do that, the club is funding it itself and is then saddled with the debt. 

Even deep pocketed clubs do that though.

 

City group took out a half billion pound loan last year to fund, amongst other things, stadium building/improvements and club purchases.

 

Don't know if there's a more recent comparison but the interest payments on external loans were just over double what ours were as of 2020.

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

6 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

Even deep pocketed clubs do that though.

 

City group took out a half billion pound loan last year to fund, amongst other things, stadium building/improvements and club purchases.

 

Don't know if there's a more recent comparison but the interest payments on external loans were just over double what ours were as of 2020.

 

 

It doesn't matter what city do, because it's all smoke and mirrors because the money they have comes in from fake over valued sponsporship deals with themselves or nonexistent crypto companies. If they're doing it by a loan, it's because it makes sense for their fiddle and in all likelihood the money is borrowed from a bank they own. Or a bank they want to put business through to help their other businesses. 

 

[TD_LFC]

9 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

It doesn't matter what city do, because it's all smoke and mirrors because the money they have comes in from fake over valued sponsporship deals with themselves or nonexistent crypto companies. If they're doing it by a loan, it's because it makes sense for their fiddle and in all likelihood the money is borrowed from a bank they own. Or a bank they want to put business through to help their other businesses. 

 

Larger interest payments don't help them fiddle the books, this isn't about transfers it's about infrastructure financing (exempt from FFP), you could apply it to any club I just applied it to one of the richest given you specifically mentioned oil rich clubs.

 

(HSBC, Barclays and KKR Capital by the way).

 

[Barrington Womble]

16 minutes ago, Harry Squatter said:

I meant that you should expect to put some of your own money in as it isn't a normal everyday business.

 

I dread to think who they will replace him with. Will probably be Lijnders to keep up the mythical set up and scouting system. The scouting system that couldn't identify any midfield targets since July. 

 

That and he'll probably be paid a lot less than Klopp.

I don't think we should expect them to put their own money in - well outside putting us on a positive footing years ago as I mentioned in the previous post. In fact as far as I know, we've never done that. Even Moores who on occasion put money in, he did some with loans and others with a share offering. We were run like a corner shop under Moores, turning over less than 150m per year and we still managed to spend as much on transfers as we do now. It's fucking mental. 

[Section_31]

21 minutes ago, Chip Butty said:

In their eyes they bought a business, in ours they bought a club, an institution and I see both sides of the debate, though I'm sure of one thing, if we were indeed run like a football club, we'd be down and gone.

In this day and age we have to be run like a business, like it or lump it, that's sadly the way it is. 

 

The debate around putting their hands in their pockets is a fair one, but how we are run, I'm not so sure they have to much to be called out on. 

 

Regardless of what we all think - if Klopp wasn't happy then he'd be off and seeing as he's extended his contract, it sort of indicates he's happy with how its being run, so I'd sort of use him as the gauge as well.

 

 

 

It's a  tough one. On one hand they bought a basket case of a club, not just under G&H but under Parry and Moores too - we were always run like a corner shop. I remember after Istanbul it took us about three months to get the DVD out, the Mancs would have had it out by Monday.  We ran out of CL champion shirts too. 

 

FSG undoubtedly know how to run the club, it seems financially sound and it's well marketed. 

 

The problem is marquee signings. We haven't dined at the top table since the 80s. We've nibbled around the edges and splurged on the occasional top class player, and when we have it's done the trick. When we take 'punts', it almost always backfires. 

 

We saw what putting our money where our mouth is did when we signed Virg and Alison. Now we've reverted to type and started trying to do things on the cheap (or not do things at all) and we  know where that road leads as we've trodden it so many times before. 

 

It's a case of put up or shut up by the owners. They've got the best manager in the world and 'some' of the best players in the world. They either see things through to the end and build on it, or content themselves with perennial top four (again). We want the former, it remains to be seen what they want. Ideally t he former too I imagine, but they'd content themselves with the latter - for me, that's worse than being relegated. 

 

Get busy winning or get busy losing. 

[Barrington Womble]

4 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

Larger interest payments don't help them fiddle the books, this isn't about transfers it's about infrastructure financing (exempt from FFP), you could apply it to any club I just applied it to one of the richest given you specifically mentioned oil rich clubs.

 

You haven't though, because they're not a rich club in the sense that their turnover is legitimate. They just juggle money around their various companies and out lawyer anyone who questions what they do. They're an irrelevance because they're not a normal sustainable business and the only way they attempt to be is by pretending half of their cashflow is legitimate.

 

When NESV bought LFC we were a distressed business. The sale was forced through by a bank recovering loans. Part of the arrangement for any new owner, was a commitment to resolve the stadium issue. If they'd have done that, put the money in (it's normal for any takeover of a distressed asset to invest), not fucked about for a dozen years and we're still going, we might be able to buy the players the manager wants. We might be able to run the club in a way that represents us as one of the world's genuinely richest clubs, instead of acting like we're fucking pensioners worrying about how we're going to pay the fuel bills this winter. 

 

Anyway, this is the last I'm going to say on this now. I fucking hate this thread and I fucking hate a bunch of no mark Americans own our club and see us as nothing but a cash cow. 

[Moo]

It's like taking a bite out of the Americanised bastardised version of Dairy Milk - ever hopeful but always left feeling cheated, disappointed, and with a bad taste in your mouth.

[lebron]

I actually like the way we are being run. Football as a business is just about the worst in the entire world when it comes to corruption, greed and unsustainability. The only annoyance is that we're not getting enough credit for it, while the cheats around the league (looking at City, Everton and Chelsea) are lauded as having fantastic windows when they by any moral parametere aren't.

 

I try not to think too much about it though. I think it just makes it all the sweeter when we actually win. Also, I really don't miss the times when we were run comically badly, with the fear of going into administration.

 

My main gripe with football post Sky (and I know there were players being bought and sold in the early days of football too) is the focus on transfers. I quite like the idea that you can improve a player by coaching and training, and that it's possible to win trophies without adding several shiny new toys every summer/winter.

 

With our reputation and (supposedly) world class facilities and coaches, I'd like us to be able to continue to develop players, both for the 1st team, but also to give some of them a platform to have good careers elsewhere (bringing us decent fees in the process). The big questionmark will of course be what happens with the 1st team performances/results when Klopp leaves, but our club structure should be set up to handle the other issues in terms of player logistics.

 

Might just be me getting old

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

15 minutes ago, lebron said:

I actually like the way we are being run. Football as a business is just about the worst in the entire world when it comes to corruption, greed and unsustainability. The only annoyance is that we're not getting enough credit for it, while the cheats around the league (looking at City, Everton and Chelsea) are lauded as having fantastic windows when they by any moral parametere aren't.

 

I try not to think too much about it though. I think it just makes it all the sweeter when we actually win. Also, I really don't miss the times when we were run comically badly, with the fear of going into administration.

 

My main gripe with football post Sky (and I know there were players being bought and sold in the early days of football too) is the focus on transfers. I quite like the idea that you can improve a player by coaching and training, and that it's possible to win trophies without adding several shiny new toys every summer/winter.

 

With our reputation and (supposedly) world class facilities and coaches, I'd like us to be able to continue to develop players, both for the 1st team, but also to give some of them a platform to have good careers elsewhere (bringing us decent fees in the process). The big questionmark will of course be what happens with the 1st team performances/results when Klopp leaves, but our club structure should be set up to handle the other issues in terms of player logistics.

 

Might just be me getting old

They need to still loosen the purse strings though.

[HBenn]

44 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

You haven't though, because they're not a rich club in the sense that their turnover is legitimate. They just juggle money around their various companies and out lawyer anyone who questions what they do. They're an irrelevance because they're not a normal sustainable business and the only way they attempt to be is by pretending half of their cashflow is legitimate.

 

When NESV bought LFC we were a distressed business. The sale was forced through by a bank recovering loans. Part of the arrangement for any new owner, was a commitment to resolve the stadium issue. If they'd have done that, put the money in (it's normal for any takeover of a distressed asset to invest), not fucked about for a dozen years and we're still going, we might be able to buy the players the manager wants. We might be able to run the club in a way that represents us as one of the world's genuinely richest clubs, instead of acting like we're fucking pensioners worrying about how we're going to pay the fuel bills this winter. 

 

Anyway, this is the last I'm going to say on this now. I fucking hate this thread and I fucking hate a bunch of no mark Americans own our club and see us as nothing but a cash cow. 

One of my biggest grips with them - apart from the media spin they engage in - is how they bang on about risk but seem to be prepared to take massive risk if it means they don't need to spend in the short term. 

 

Reading James Pearce's article this morning he wrote "The Henderson injury was the trigger, Klopp, Ward and Gordon agreed that sitting tight was no longer an option". 

 

It says in the same article that they enquired about Laimer a week ago so it maybe a red herring but it suggests that perhaps at least 1 of the 3 weren't really onboard with doing anything until Hendo's injury. Which, just feels like Jan 21 and Matip all over again. They have to be taken kicking and screaming to open the wallet.

 

On the basis that we only signed Arthur it would add to that feeling as well. They are putting so much pressure on the next window now and I just hope that a) we are in a position to get these players (through our league position) and b)They have got more than 1 wrapped up. There can be no excuses next summer, waiting a year is massive. 

 

Anyway, that is it now for me, window is done. More than said my piece, need to focus on the positives. We have bought good players and if anyone can deliver it's Jurgen.

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, HBenn said:

One of my biggest grips with them - apart from the media spin they engage in - is how they bang on about risk but seem to be prepared to take massive risk if it means they don't need to spend in the short term. 

 

Reading James Pearce's article this morning he wrote "The Henderson injury was the trigger, Klopp, Ward and Gordon agreed that sitting tight was no longer an option". 

 

It says in the same article that they enquired about Laimer a week ago so it maybe a red herring but it suggests that perhaps at least 1 of the 3 weren't really onboard with doing anything until Hendo's injury. Which, just feels like Jan 21 and Matip all over again. They have to be taken kicking and screaming to open the wallet.

 

On the basis that we only signed Arthur it would add to that feeling as well. They are putting so much pressure on the next window now and I just hope that a) we are in a position to get these players (through our league position) and b)They have got more than 1 wrapped up. There can be no excuses next summer, waiting a year is massive. 

 

Anyway, that is it now for me, window is done. More than said my piece, need to focus on the positives. We have bought good players and if anyone can deliver it's Jurgen.

Klopp will get the best out of whoever is available. We just have to hope we can get some players back because we'll keep seeing players go down if we're playing them in the red zone all the time. Luck with injuries is what we need now. 

[HBenn]

Just now, Barrington Womble said:

Klopp will get the best out of whoever is available. We just have to hope we can get some players back because we'll keep seeing players go down if we're playing them in the red zone all the time. Luck with injuries is what we need now. 

Agree.

[No2]

Out of the half billion Chelsea, Utd and Everton splurged what player would you welcome here? 

 

Going through them all I'd say Casemiro and Sterling. The former is a total non runner for any functioning football club and Sterling wasn't needed.

 

If you asked supporters of those clubs would they take Carvalho and Nunez and they would snap your hand off.

[No2]

13 minutes ago, HBenn said:

One of my biggest grips with them - apart from the media spin they engage in - is how they bang on about risk but seem to be prepared to take massive risk if it means they don't need to spend in the short term. 

 

Reading James Pearce's article this morning he wrote "The Henderson injury was the trigger, Klopp, Ward and Gordon agreed that sitting tight was no longer an option". 

 

It says in the same article that they enquired about Laimer a week ago so it maybe a red herring but it suggests that perhaps at least 1 of the 3 weren't really onboard with doing anything until Hendo's injury. Which, just feels like Jan 21 and Matip all over again. They have to be taken kicking and screaming to open the wallet.

 

On the basis that we only signed Arthur it would add to that feeling as well. They are putting so much pressure on the next window now and I just hope that a) we are in a position to get these players (through our league position) and b)They have got more than 1 wrapped up. There can be no excuses next summer, waiting a year is massive. 

 

Anyway, that is it now for me, window is done. More than said my piece, need to focus on the positives. We have bought good players and if anyone can deliver it's Jurgen.

If we enquired about Laimer then a season long loan makes even more sense. He's free next season, straight replacement for one of our free lads hobbling out the door. We can sign him in January, Bayern have to wait until June.

[Moo]

45 minutes ago, lebron said:

I actually like the way we are being run. Football as a business is just about the worst in the entire world when it comes to corruption, greed and unsustainability. The only annoyance is that we're not getting enough credit for it, while the cheats around the league (looking at City, Everton and Chelsea) are lauded as having fantastic windows when they by any moral parametere aren't.

 

I try not to think too much about it though. I think it just makes it all the sweeter when we actually win. Also, I really don't miss the times when we were run comically badly, with the fear of going into administration.

 

My main gripe with football post Sky (and I know there were players being bought and sold in the early days of football too) is the focus on transfers. I quite like the idea that you can improve a player by coaching and training, and that it's possible to win trophies without adding several shiny new toys every summer/winter.

 

With our reputation and (supposedly) world class facilities and coaches, I'd like us to be able to continue to develop players, both for the 1st team, but also to give some of them a platform to have good careers elsewhere (bringing us decent fees in the process). The big questionmark will of course be what happens with the 1st team performances/results when Klopp leaves, but our club structure should be set up to handle the other issues in terms of player logistics.

 

Might just be me getting old

Genuine question.

How do you think you'll you feel if (when) we're back with the also-rans?  Rueful, regretful at a missed opportunity? Or just grateful we're still in existence?

 

I'll be fuming personally because right now (and over the last few years) we should be doing everything in our power to try to cement ourselves at the top table. I know there's no guarantees but it's very clear we could be doing much more.

[joe_fishfish]

I don't think non-cheat teams in this league can really cement themselves at the top table any more. Chelsea could well fall away in a few years without Abramovich. Man Utd have basically infinite money even with the Glazers leeching off them, and they haven't been able to do it either.

 

Even at City, there's something odd going on, they've sold a lot of players and have a really tiny squad. It's like they've suddenly started giving a shit about FFP.

 

I think FSG could do more for us than they have done, but if you're expecting us to become England's Bayern under any set of owners apart from a corrupt petro-state then you're going to be disappointed.

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

I don't think non-cheat teams in this league can really cement themselves at the top table any more. Chelsea could well fall away in a few years without Abramovich. Man Utd have basically infinite money even with the Glazers leeching off them, and they haven't been able to do it either.

 

Even at City, there's something odd going on, they've sold a lot of players and have a really tiny squad. It's like they've suddenly started giving a shit about FFP.

 

I think FSG could do more for us than they have done, but if you're expecting us to become England's Bayern under any set of owners apart from a corrupt petro-state then you're going to be disappointed.

perhaps city can;t get the deals they want over the line while guardiola is in the last year of his contract - or alternatively are saving for a massive splurge when he's gone. 

 

and of course after the WC is over, PSG may be happy to see neymar go. 

[TD_LFC]

20 minutes ago, Moo said:

Genuine question.

How do you think you'll you feel if (when) we're back with the also-rans?  Rueful, regretful at a missed opportunity? Or just grateful we're still in existence?

 

I'll be fuming personally because right now (and over the last few years) we should be doing everything in our power to try to cement ourselves at the top table. I know there's no guarantees but it's very clear we could be doing much more.

Despite their protestations about hating the CL I imagine City fans are saying the same, despite their 'dominance' it's literally been a single goal or a draw instead of a win that's separated us in the league and despite their vast wealth they've failed to address key area's of the side (specifically left back and, before this season, upfront).

 

How many seasons have they gone without a recognised left back and relied on a, albeit very good, right back to cover that position or a utility midfielder/winger in that role?

 

Cucarella would have been perfect for them, they chased him all summer then refused to pay a few extra million to get it over the line when they could easily afford it?

 

They then signed a left back from Belgium they wanted to ship out on loan to one of the 10 other clubs in the city group but had to keep him just in case.

 

There's often an assumption that the issue you see in your owners are unique and often the perception from outside is quite different. The truth is probably between the two extremes.

[Moo]

25 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

I don't think non-cheat teams in this league can really cement themselves at the top table any more. Chelsea could well fall away in a few years without Abramovich. Man Utd have basically infinite money even with the Glazers leeching off them, and they haven't been able to do it either.

 

Even at City, there's something odd going on, they've sold a lot of players and have a really tiny squad. It's like they've suddenly started giving a shit about FFP.

 

I think FSG could do more for us than they have done, but if you're expecting us to become England's Bayern under any set of owners apart from a corrupt petro-state then you're going to be disappointed.

No I don't expect that personally which is why I said there's no guarantees.

I don't expect anything of FSG they have lowered the bar that much.  But I would hope we/they would try everything to put us in a position to continue to challenge at the top when Klopp leaves.  There's nothing to say they are doing that or have any intention to, unless they are saving the money now in order to support the next manager (who is highly unlikely to be a miracle worker). 

There it is again, hope.  But tempered with the knowledge that in all likelihood it's probably very much unfounded.

[Moo]

1 minute ago, TD_LFC said:

Despite their protestations about hating the CL I imagine City fans are saying the same, despite their 'dominance' it's literally been a single goal or a draw instead of a win that's separated us in the league and despite their vast wealth they've failed to address key area's of the side (specifically left back and, before this season, upfront).

 

How many seasons have they gone without a recognised left back and relied on a, albeit very good, right back to cover that position or a utility midfielder/winger in that role?

 

Cucarella would have been perfect for them, they chased him all summer then refused to pay a few extra million to get it over the line when they could easily afford it?

 

They then signed a left back from Belgium they wanted to ship out on loan to one of the 10 other clubs in the city group but had to keep him just in case.

 

There's often an assumption that the issue you see in your owners are unique and often the perception from outside is quite different. The truth is probably between the two extremes.

Is this a serious post? Are you trying to suggest City's owners have not invested in the squad?

[TD_LFC]

Just now, Moo said:

Is this a serious post? Are you trying to suggest City's owners have not invested in the squad?

No I'm not suggesting that.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

A stringent defence.

[Moo]

1 minute ago, TD_LFC said:

No I'm not suggesting that.

What then?  That supporters very often always want more?  Of course they do, it goes without saying.  I think there's a very clear distinction between what City do and what we do, there's no comparison but that's twice (I think) you've compared us to City when we are at opposite ends of the scale. It just seems a distraction.

[etho]

Lots of eyes on next summer now agreed. If you get 2 midfielders who stay fit then it more than makes up for the loss of Keita, Ox and likely Milner plus the ageing and fitness issues of Thiago and Henderson.

I suspect we may end up with just one though, depending on whether Curtis Jones steps up. Surely if he doesn't this year then we accept he isn't going.

 

Fabinho/hendo

New guy/elliott

Thiago/new guy/carvalho

 

We'll also need another attacker assuming Bobby goes. A wide player might make more sense given we'll have Jota and Nunez in the centre.

 

My hunch is we get one midfielder and one attacker 

[TD_LFC]

9 minutes ago, Moo said:

What then?  That supporters very often always want more?  Of course they do, it goes without saying.  I think there's a very clear distinction between what City do and what we do, there's no comparison but that's twice (I think) you've compared us to City when we are at opposite ends of the scale. It just seems a distraction.

Because City are at the extreme end.

 

There's an assumption that everything this clubs does is unique (for better or worse) when it isn't the case, we aren't the only club who leaves a transfer window needing more, we aren't the only club that has internal or external debt, we aren't the only club that funds infrastructure projects using loans etc etc

 

You can argue the degree's to which those things happen, you can argue whether there are better solutions, but at least do it from a position of knowing what actually happens and how it correlates with standard business practice/how other clubs approach the same problems and argue the rights and wrongs from there instead of some of the made up shit you often see.

 

Otherwise it all get's very Trumpian where what you say and who you get validation from is more important than the content of what's said.