London looking like Mogadishu...

[Redder Lurtz]

Just fresh fruit, veg , meat ect we make our own meals. I don't want my son growing up on processed foods.

 

I am at the moment growing my own food tho, so should reduce some of the cost. Also baby stuff, wet wipes ect ect are so expensive.

 

 

 

Fuck me food must be a lot cheaper in the north atm.

 

ASDA Price Guarantee

[PestiRed]

Cheers mate.

 

Some fucking serious questions for them to try and sweep under the carpet if true.

 

Every time something happens the police leak early info to the media that turns out to be shit, makes things worse & looks like a cover-up later - De Menezes, Tomlinson, Duggan. When are they going to learn to shut up & not release anything until there's been a proper investigation

[silverlining]

KFC was ransacked too

 

Talk about literally biting the hand that feeds you

[Guest Jon Snow]

Cheers mate.

 

Some fucking serious questions for them to try and sweep under the carpet if true.

 

Not surprised at all, its the police ? When have they ever given a shit who they hurt ? above the the law always have been, always will be.

 

End of day people don't get this angry if some gangster dies they must have known this guy wasn't a bad fella and this is the reaction of people who lost someone who clearly was not a common thug.

 

Some of the stories that been coming out of London about the police the last 10 years have been shocking to say the least, the hate must come from somewhere. People don't turn on the police like this unless its been a long process of decline in confidence in the protective qualities of the establishment. Police always seemed to me to be more self serving then protecting the public, from my life experience.

 

Just listening to the ex met police chief last night, he was calling this kids thugs, and trouble makers. But he was so adamant that there was no way to reason with them. I was thinking really ? Is this the guy that used to run the biggest police force in the uk. Not even willing to reason with people who want answers.

[Section_31]

[Disclaimer: The contents of this link do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster, because he can't be arsed to read it all.]

 

Tottenham unrest a sympton of Tory Britain / Britain / Home - Morning Star

 

I've got to say, there was something almost comedic about Borris Johnson being interviewed (by phone obviously as he is on holiday) about the riots. A man more far removed from the realy London you probably couldn't find if you tried.

[King Emlyn]

I've got to say, there was something almost comedic about Borris Johnson being interviewed (by phone obviously as he is on holiday) about the riots. A man more far removed from the realy London you probably couldn't find if you tried.

Big Jim Rennie?

[Wor Horse]

Not surprised at all, its the police ? When have they ever given a shit who they hurt ? above the the law always have been, always will be.

 

End of day people don't get this angry if some gangster dies they must have known this guy wasn't a bad fella and this is the reaction of people who lost someone who clearly was not a common thug.

 

Some of the stories that been coming out of London about the police the last 10 years have been shocking to say the least, the hate must come from somewhere. People don't turn on the police like this unless its been a long process of decline in confidence in the protective qualities of the establishment. Police always seemed to me to be more self serving then protecting the public, from my life experience.

 

Just listening to the ex met police chief last night, he was calling this kids thugs, and trouble makers. But he was so adamant that there was no way to reason with them. I was thinking really ? Is this the guy that used to run the biggest police force in the uk. Not even willing to reason with people who want answers.

 

I'd like you to go out in a police uniform to some of these estates and talk to some of these characters.

 

In fact I'd really like it.

[silverlining]

When the same people who rioted last night are shooting at eachother and someone innocent gets killed I don't remember them going all out to reveal the person who fired the gun.

 

No, they keep their mouths shut and see no wrong with it.

 

Maybe they should have celebrated the policemen who they believe shot someone innocently as they do when their own do it.

 

Well, yeah.

 

But then you'll get the mewling cabbage apologists shying away from the black issue, absolve everyone involved of any fucking responsibility, and instead apportion blame onto "the rulers of society".

 

Fact is, not one of these cunts quacking on about it has ever lived on an inner-city London council estate. Or near one. Or had to venture onto the top deck of a bus going into Lewisham after 9pm.

 

I was never a fan of "Operation Trident", not because it was a pointless waste of police funds, but largely because I fucking love it when violent, cretinous, self-aggrandising thugs murder eachother.

 

Let them get on with it.

[ngogswilly]

As far as the whole debate goes about people looting and whether they were stealing food vs electronics. It is possible for a large group of people to have been comprised of more than 1 generic type of person.

 

I'm sure there were plenty of people robbing food from iceland and Lidl because they need to, I'm also sure there were plenty of scumbags robbing ipods and laptops because they felt like it.

 

Its never as simple as made out. I look at that shite that went on in London and I think there are some serious fucking scumbags in the world. But then you have to remember that not all those people rioting are scumbags and some of those people have serious fucking problems in terms of quality of life they enjoy and employment opportunities etc...

 

The problem we face right now in the western world is some of the poorest sections of our societies have elements within them which are dangerous and violent. These problems will never go away as long as we have Governments who really don't give a fuck about the people and care more about large corporations and lining their own pockets.

[Trumo]

Numerous mobile phone shops were looted during the riots. The Met Police are struggling for leads as they can't find any mobile phones to hack.

[Guest Jon Snow]

I'd like you to go out in a police uniform to some of these estates and talk to some of these characters.

 

In fact I'd really like it.

 

I grew up in these estates you speak off, if the police are hated its their own fault. Its years of abusing there positions. Some of my family still lives in those areas and the people are alright for the most. Yes you get gangsters and what not. but crime is a product of poverty, logic 101.

 

I doubt you could last 5 mins with out a uniform on Wor.

[TheHitman]

I tend to wait a couple of days to find out what really happened, as a lot of the initial reporting often tends to be sensationalised and full of hysteria.

 

On another note anyone would think gangs are unique to this generation, there were gangs in Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool in the 19th century. Guess what, they even were based on postcode bollocks also. Funnily enough a lot were Irish immigrant youths. History tends to have a way of repeating itself sadly.

 

If you read some of the narratives, from that time it is strikingly similar to how people talk about certain sections of society.

 

THEY were the gangs who brought violence and terror to the streets of inner-city Birmingham.

 

Young thugs behind a crimewave of murder, riots, robberies and knife attacks that often left the police powerless – and saw locals too scared to venture outside after dark.

 

The gangs were split across district or neighbourhood boundary lines and thought nothing of mercilessly attacking a rival who encroached into their area.

It sounds like a description of modern-day Birmingham, where the Burger Bar Boys and Johnson Crew have been behind killings and violence.

 

In fact, this was the city in around 1870, when young criminals like the Peaky Blinders and the Sloggers ruled the streets.

 

A fascinating new book has shone a light on the murky world of youth crime in Victorian Birmingham, offering many parallels with the problems faced by the city today.

Philip Gooderson, author of The Gangs of Birmingham, reveals how ‘something sinister’ happened to West Midlands society during the boom years of the Industrial Revolution.

“While the wider Victorian public basked in the glories of Empire, the great cities of the Industrial Revolution became breeding grounds for violent young gangs of a kind never seen before,” he said.

 

“They emerged from overcrowded slums and tenements, where life was held cheap, many died in infancy and only the Poor Law provided a safety net against poverty and old age.

 

“Violence was part of the day-to-day existence and came from all directions. One way to cope was to band together, perhaps first with brothers and sisters, then later with fellow workers and neighbourhood friends.”

 

One of the first criminal groups to emerge in inner-city Brum was the Cheapside Slogging gang.

 

A newspaper report in spring 1872 revealed how ‘400 roughs’ brought indiscriminate violence to the area, smashing windows, stealing from shops and attacking store owners or locals who tried to intervene.

 

“The rioters remained in the neighbourhood for some time, terrorising passers-by,” reported our sister paper, the Birmingham Mail.

“A small body of police was sent to deal with them and the Slogging Gang quickly retreated to Cheapside.

 

“The officers dispersed the gang, making three arrests, including two very poor youths of no fixed home. One admitted to breaking glass and stealing herrings from the Market hall and the other to breaking the windows of a house and of St Jude’s Church.”

 

Sloggers eventually became a generic term for young hoodlums and slogging for street fighting, an activity that took place on a regular basis in the city centre areas of Birmingham.

 

But many of the other gangs were named after areas their members had grown up in, including the Gun Quarter, Garrisons Lane, Ten Arches and Bishop Ryders.

 

The Whitehouse Street gang were based in Aston – the haunt of the Johnson Street Crew today.

 

They were led by feared thug James Grindrod who lived a life of violence and crime in his youth. He was eventually jailed in 1882, along with a young lieutenant, for attacking a rival.

 

William ‘Bowey’ Beard was a leader of the equallyviolent Digbeth Gang and carried knife scars on his face as a testament to his lengthy criminal activities and many street battles.

 

Many of the gang names and their leaders became infamous during the late 19th Century – but none more so than The Peaky Blinders.

 

The Adderley Street-based gang emerged in the Bordesley and Small Heath areas, a particularly deprived part of the city in 19th century Birmingham.

Unlike their rivals, The Peaky Blinders had a carefully stylised image; bell bottom trousers, a silk ‘daff’ or scarf twisted round their necks and tied at the end, and a flat cap tilted on their head.

 

This classic look was displayed in police mugshots of gang members from the day, including David Taylor, who was jailed at the age of 13 for carrying a gun.

Other Peakies included baby-faced Harry Fowles, Ernest Haynes and Stephen McNickle, who were all jailed for petty theft after being arrested by the under-pressure police.

The girlfriends or ‘molls’ of the gang were also easy to spot.

 

According to contemporary reports, they wore a “lavish display of pearls, the well-developed fringe obscuring the whole of the forehead and descending nearly to the eyes, and the characteristic gaudy-coloured silk handkerchief covering her throat.”

Peaky Blinders were said to be as violent to their girls as they were to other boys, with one moll confessing: “He’ll pinch and punch you every time he walks out with you. And if you speak to another chap, he don’t mind kicking you.”

 

The decline of the gangs towards the turn of the 20th Century coincided with the decline of the city centre population. Families had been steadily moving out to surrounding boroughs in search of a healthier and more peaceful existence, away from the heavy industry and the high crime rates.

 

The emergence of the fledging football teams in the city, Aston Villa and Birmingham City (originally called as Small Heath Alliance), was also seen a healthier alternative for young men to express their tribal loyalties, until hooliganism reared its head many later.

Today, most of the names of those Victorian gangs have been forgotten, although Peaky Blinders – the hoodies of their day – still live on as a term in some areas for young troublemakers. Retired schoolteacher Mr Gooderson, whose family originates from Birmingham, said: “The progressive enlargement of the city would increase the difference between territories, but also increase the distance between them.

“Turf loyalty would find a wide range of alternative forms of expression.

 

“Yet personal followings would continue to be important, and groups with the power to bully and create mayhem would continue to emerge, while issues of masculinity, adolescent peer pressure and group competition would continue to be problematic.

“Gangs had flourished in Victorian Birmingham – and would in time return.”

 

Gangs of Victorian Birmingham revealed in new book - Sunday Mercury

 

Here is another report from Manchester

 

 

The Gangs of Manchester: the Story of the Scuttlers, Britain’s First Youth Cult by Andrew Davies - review - Telegraph

 

I haven't looked for the Liverpool gangs of old, but Scotland Road and the high rippers comes to mind.

[silverlining]

*Hitman in not realising that it isn't the 19th century any more shocker*

[Wor Horse]

I grew up in these estates you speak off, if the police are hated its their own fault. Its years of abusing there positions. Some of my family still lives in those areas and the people are alright for the most. Yes you get gangsters and what not. but crime is a product of poverty, logic 101.

 

I doubt you could last 5 mins with out a uniform on Wor.

 

I haven't got a uniform on, what the fuck are you talking about?

 

What area did you grow up in?

[silverlining]

I haven't got a uniform on, what the fuck are you talking about?

 

What area did you grow up in?

 

Wor, you do realise that you're addressing Jon Snow, who has very quickly established himself as one of the most ill-educated, ignorant and laughably stupid posters on this website?

 

You're wasting your time.

 

The only value to be had with this drooling fucking spastic is laughing at him.

[VladimirIlyich]

"As when Margaret Thatcher imposed such policies during her recessions this creates the threat of people losing control, acting in completely unacceptable ways that threaten everyone, and culminating in events of the type we saw in Tottenham."

 

This is like 1981 all over again.

There were loads of bullshit stories being spread by the media that it was just bored teenagers and thugs causing trouble for something to do and not respecting the law,blah,blah,blah.

Once the truth comes out and its the result of poverty,desperation,unemployment,poor policing and many other things that occur as the rich get richer,remember the yuppies? and the poor get poorer.

Its bound to happen,Brixton,Moss Side,St Pauls,Toxteth,Broadwater Farm and 30 years later no lessons have been learnt.

 

I'm also willing to bet a few of those teenagers in 1981 are todays parents,workers and even employers as well as a few serial criminals.

Things go in cycles and 2011 is very like 1981.

[norwichlfc]

Here is my opinions, which some may or may not agree with.

 

The mindless idiots who set fire to the shops and businesses with flats above them should be charged with attempted murder if they are found who started them and if anyone was inside those destroyed buildings.

That shows that the idiots used the protest as a smokescreen to attack the Police and to have a riot. Reports were about that 10 year olds were amongst the people throwing stones, FFS what is society coming to.

So what a criminal was shot dead, good, maybe if more were shot dead they would think twice about committing crimes. Now people are complaining that the Police let buildings burn down, blimey didn't anyone notice that these officers were under constant attack from petrol bombs, rocks, fireworks, reported pipe bombs. Those officers stood there for hours on end taking the shit from the rioters and you must praise them for showing so much restraint, i know i have been behind a shield and you want to just go and hit the little fuckers.

Once again it is the ethnic community feeling hard done by. White families do not like the Police, White people get shot by the Police, yet they don't go out rioting and such. It is just an excuse from them and for me it was planned to have a riot, but this shooting gave them the chance to do it and the excuse to do it

[G Richards]

Cultures are engineered. You only have to look at how much our society has changed in the last decade or so. Celebrity obsession, people in town carrying themselves like they're famous, the villification of the working class as an 'underclass' and the way we dismiss them with words like 'chav'. (the one-worder is invaluable too for dehumanisation, like nigger and spic, it makes someone an object rather than a person which means you can then ignore them or deride them to make yourself feel better, depending on the situation)

 

The Reagan/Thatcher era ushered in indivisualism as it's seen now, and most of the people you meet think along the lines of 'career, home, car, kids' probably in that order, they don't really invest their thoughts or pursuits in any kind of higher ideals or things they can't physically own, this is why there's no ideology underpinning politics, and the reason you can only win an election by pandering to the so-called 'middle classes', as New Labour had to do, and as Obama has to do. Talking about the poor is simply not going to cut it because, quite simply, nobody cares.

 

It's shortsighted though, because if we built proper communities and gave people a decent standard of living, the kind of problems which blight our society would solve themselves. Anti-social behaviour, low level crime, vandalism, arson, would be drastically reduced because you wouldn't have a whole section of society who feel cut adrift.

 

You build communities around good quality 'working class' jobs, if you have that 'social glue', you have people working and living together, eating and drinking together, playing sport together, marrying and befriending each other, bringing their kids to work as apprenticies, then you get a collection of people who look out for one another, they help each other with their kids so they don't need the state's support - they don't need the state to pick up the bill - they also give each other a slap when they go off the rails, so a good proportion of low level crime is taken out of the equation.

 

There's also the intangible effects of building a society based on individualism. Depression and sucicides - especially anong young men - are higher, and people are generally more disconected.

 

Just wanted to say that's a really good post. I'm working my way through the thread and found this, so wanted to say well done.

[VladimirIlyich]

Here is my opinions, which some may or may not agree with.

 

The mindless idiots who set fire to the shops and businesses with flats above them should be charged with attempted murder if they are found who started them and if anyone was inside those destroyed buildings.

That shows that the idiots used the protest as a smokescreen to attack the Police and to have a riot. Reports were about that 10 year olds were amongst the people throwing stones, FFS what is society coming to.

So what a criminal was shot dead, good, maybe if more were shot dead they would think twice about committing crimes. Now people are complaining that the Police let buildings burn down, blimey didn't anyone notice that these officers were under constant attack from petrol bombs, rocks, fireworks, reported pipe bombs. Those officers stood there for hours on end taking the shit from the rioters and you must praise them for showing so much restraint, i know i have been behind a shield and you want to just go and hit the little fuckers.

Once again it is the ethnic community feeling hard done by. White families do not like the Police, White people get shot by the Police, yet they don't go out rioting and such. It is just an excuse from them and for me it was planned to have a riot, but this shooting gave them the chance to do it and the excuse to do it

 

How do you know it was a criminal and if so,was he commiting a crime at the time or even wanted for one?

 

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[Anubis]

There are a whole host of factors which have fed into what happened.

 

The first issue is that trust in the Met is at a real low. Incidents like De Menezes have led to a lack of faith in any official version the Met put out regarding a shooting, even one which may well be justified.

 

It sounds as though a relatively small group of people approached the station to ask questions in a peaceful manner. However, once word got round that swelled to a much larger group, many of whom seemed to have come for nothing more than trouble.

 

I've no doubt that once that trouble started you'll have had some of the poorer locals deciding to help themselves to some treats while they could, but there was also undoubtably a strong element who were always intent on trouble and crime.

 

I have to say, the Met seemed to take ages in getting reinforcements there, and I wonder, as some have above, if there wasn't something political in that.

 

The problem is we have a large disenfanchised underclass, an element of whom have little or no education or skills, many of whom are more than happy to graft (usually drug dealing) to earn money, and have little interest in joining in society's norms. We also have a lot of young people in that underclass who have basic skills which are rendered meaningless by a lack of employment opportunities because the jobs simply don't exist. And you'll have a lot of people who were working, but have been made unemployed, joining them - usually with a shitload of stress factors such as debt or inability to pay their mortgages. All of these groups are likely to be drawn into confrontation if, for two-thirds anyway, they only see theor situation getting worse, not better. Obviously the other third will be in it for the 'lulz' (crime) anyway.

 

And that's before you even start looking at the dysfunction and the breeding patterns in the families they come from, and the 'families' they are starting themselves.

[Section_31]

"As when Margaret Thatcher imposed such policies during her recessions this creates the threat of people losing control, acting in completely unacceptable ways that threaten everyone, and culminating in events of the type we saw in Tottenham."

 

This is like 1981 all over again.

There were loads of bullshit stories being spread by the media that it was just bored teenagers and thugs causing trouble for something to do and not respecting the law,blah,blah,blah.

Once the truth comes out and its the result of poverty,desperation,unemployment,poor policing and many other things that occur as the rich get richer,remember the yuppies? and the poor get poorer.

Its bound to happen,Brixton,Moss Side,St Pauls,Toxteth,Broadwater Farm and 30 years later no lessons have been learnt.

 

I'm also willing to bet a few of those teenagers in 1981 are todays parents,workers and even employers as well as a few serial criminals.

Things go in cycles and 2011 is very like 1981.

 

When you cut people off they're going to get pissed off. They'll either wage a war of self destruction such as with binge drinking and screwing around, or their frustrations will boil over. I'm not too far from this mindset myself in all honesty, after working hard and trying to get myself educated, I came to the realisation that if the financial system did collapse - I'd have nothing to lose anyway due to the fact I don't have a pension, house, or indeed any money. In fact being 18 stone and 6'3, we might get some genuine survival of the fittest style shit going on, rather than the current 'my daddy works at the bank and made me rich' bullshit.

 

Where's my ball-peen hammer? Some anti-social Darwinism is calling me.

[silverlining]

 

being 18 stone and 6'3, we might get some genuine survival of the fittest style shit going on, rather than the current 'my daddy works at the bank and made me rich' bullshit.

 

Where's my ball-peen hammer? Some anti-social Darwinism is calling me.

 

 

Arf

[norwichlfc]

How do you know it was a criminal and if so,was he commiting a crime at the time or even wanted for one?

 

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

 

He was guilty, trust me. Amazing how the parents of any criminal killed by anyone, how all these criminals are, a loving person, never hurt anyone, never involved in crime, loved by everyone...utter bollocks really.

 

So now Enfield is the new place to riot, what the fuck has it got to do there. And who is listening to the stupid cow on Sky News paper review, what a stupid bint

[VladimirIlyich]

I tend to view these situations a lot differently know than I did back then and while I recognise that a lot of the violence has been caused by thugs and criminals,I do think situations like this are inevitable.

 

Its a shame we dont see this many coppers turn up in one place when a child has been murdered as we do when multi national businesses get ransacked and set on fire.

Property is again valued way above human life.

[PestiRed]

He was guilty, trust me. Amazing how the parents of any criminal killed by anyone, how all these criminals are, a loving person, never hurt anyone, never involved in crime, loved by everyone...utter bollocks really.

 

 

What do you have to be guilty of to warrant being shot? So far we've got a bloke inside a taxi-cab with no known criminal record. A gun was found on the scene, probably his but not yet proven. We've got no evidence that he fired the gun or even had it in his hands when he was shot.

 

I've got no time for people carrying guns but shooting them should surely be a last resort