What is wrong and how do we fix it?

[Irishlad]

The biggest problem of the lot is we still haven't had our full team on the pitch for one game, nevermind a run of games. It would be great to just click from the off but this isn't FM.

 

We've had a very difficult start to the season and haven't done too badly all things considering. Things will pick up from here on in

[JER]

We need a brave team selection - 2 holding midfielders is a cowards option, and gets the results it deserves. Most of our problems come down to this IMO. Hodgson has options against the Mancs - if he fails to use them then he will be fully deserving of the vitriol that will come his way.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Do not play Lucas, Poulsen, Jova and Dirk/Maxi in the same midfield for fucking starters. I called it early yesterday and got fucking slated for it.

 

I'd only pick Poulsen out of that lot. Rest are fucking wank and offer us a big fat zero in the attacking department.

 

It's all about midfield.

Edited September 13, 2010 by 1892-LFCWasBorn

[redsfan]

I think there has been a few problems but I think our major problem which if solved will get us moving in the right direction, is sacrificing 2 holding midfielders.

 

Right now I would be happy for us to be able to go after a game and if we then lose fair enough we revert back to maybe one holding midfielder but right now we have no cohesiveness nor style.

 

Right now, maybe against Steau play something like this.

 

-----------------------------Reina------------------------------

 

Johnson--------Carragher----------Agger----------Konchesky

 

---------------------Gerrard-----Meireles---------------------

 

Maxi-------------------------Cole------------------------Babel

 

----------------------------Torres--------------------------------

 

I know people will say we need a defensive midfielder at least but ill be honest right now i am sick to death of them. Obviously we will need to play on half the games we play but i just think we need to add a bit more football to our side then having frig all the middle like against Birmingham. Why not try it? if it dont work, we have options to change it back to a defensive midfielder.

[JaminKibbler]

I think there has been a few problems but I think our major problem which if solved will get us moving in the right direction, is sacrificing 2 holding midfielders.

 

Right now I would be happy for us to be able to go after a game and if we then lose fair enough we revert back to maybe one holding midfielder but right now we have no cohesiveness nor style.

 

Right now, maybe against Steau play something like this.

 

-----------------------------Reina------------------------------

 

Johnson--------Carragher----------Agger----------Konchesky

 

---------------------Gerrard-----Meireles---------------------

 

Maxi-------------------------Cole------------------------Babel

 

----------------------------Torres--------------------------------

 

I know people will say we need a defensive midfielder at least but ill be honest right now i am sick to death of them. Obviously we will need to play on half the games we play but i just think we need to add a bit more football to our side then having frig all the middle like against Birmingham. Why not try it? if it dont work, we have options to change it back to a defensive midfielder.

Completely agree with you mate, Cole will take up Gerrard's place and provide him with excellent balls like he did for N'gog. Gerrard and Meireles have the duty of being box to box midfielders that defend, but more importantly get forward and attack. If we can't score with this team, we're fucked!

[Red Nick]

Continuing from a post in another thread, I thought it might be worthwhile (or even just cathartic) to discuss why we are playing so badly at the moment, and what we might be able to do to fix it. Apologies if this goes on a bit, but clearly we have a lot of problems...

 

Defense:

 

1) We are defending too deeply. This might be because of a lack of pace or it might just be the way that Roy likes to play, but either way it is causing the midfield to drop back much further than it should and leaving the front two horrible isolated. It also leads to way too many aimless punts from the back by Carra that are meat and drink for any modern defender worth his salt.

 

2) Johnson. His form is not good, and defensively he looks worse than he ever has right now. He is out of position far too often and needs a fucking haircut.

 

3) Set pieces. I shit myself every time we concede one. Obviously we have changed the way we defend them, and it might take a while before we fully adapt to man marking again after playing zonally for a few years, but you would like to think that a group of experienced internationals and Paul Konchesky would be able to get the hang of it in short order. Oh, and Skrtel's Steven Regal impressions in the box need to stop as well.

 

 

Midfield:

 

1) No width. By that I mean no one who is able beat a full back and/or create something from wide areas. Jovanovic is a trier but he makes Milan Baros look like Jari Litmanen with his "head down, run as fast as you can into a blind alley" routine. On the other side, Kuyt is badly out of form and Maxi just doesn't look arsed. No wonder Torres spends so much time running into channels when he should be the one in the box trying to get on the end of things. I honestly don't think any of our current wide players are even as good as Vladimir Smicer.

 

2) Poulsen and Lucas. This needs no explaining really. I think I will have a fucking aneurism if these two line up together against the Mancs. They are far too similar, and neither of them is really good enough. I'd give Poulsen the nod if we have to pick one of them though as he can't possibly offer us less than Lucas. I'd rather have a concussed Daniel Agger in midfield than Lucas.

 

Attack:

 

1) Only point here, really. I know he's coming off an injury and he is largely starved of service, but that's no excuse for strolling around with a face like a smacked arse when you should be pressuring defenders and closing people down. Say what you want about N'Gog but he always puts the effort in and, in my opinion, has given more for the team in his few appearances this season than 'Nando has.

 

In general:

 

1) Late substitutions. We've had years of this under Rafa, but Roy seems to be just as bad for it, if not worse. If the game is drifting from us and we're showing no signs of creating anything the last thing I want to see is the manager sitting on his fucking hands. I can't deal with another season of us failing to turn up for the first 45 minutes and then not seeing any changes made until it's too fucking late.

 

2) Defeatist comments in interviews. This needs to stop now. It makes my blood boil. It's de-motivating and corrosive to our confidence. Simple as.

 

 

Solutions:

 

1) Play Agger and not Skrtel. He's a better defender, better passer of the ball and he's also quicker. He's no Usain Bolt like but he would definitely allow us to defend a bit higher up the pitch, and would also provide us with an outlet by bringing the ball into midfield and picking out passes.

 

2) Either drop him for Kelly, who has played better than him when he's been given the chance, or try him on the right wing. It's hard to imagine him giving us less there than Maxi did yesterday, and he would at least try and take on the full back now and again.

 

3) Not much that we can do about this except work on it in training. We could play the Greek, who would definitely help us to deal with aerial balls, but we can't play both him and Agger unless we drop Carra (or play him at right back, where his lack of pace could be badly exposed.)

 

 

Midfield:

 

1) As above, we could give Johnson a try on the right. In the absence of the two new wide players that we need, it has to be worth a go. I would also consider giving Babel a go on the left. He could potentially be even worse than Jovanovic if I'm being honest, but I don't see that we have much to lose by giving it a go. It's depressing to consider the options we had though, and the fact that we didn't go after any wide players in the summer.

 

2) Right now I would play Gerrard deeper. So far this season he has looked a lot better there than he has behind Torres, where he has been isolated and unable to make any impression on the game. Then we could either play Meireles alongside him and Cole off Torres, or Poulsen alongside him and Meireles off Torres, with Cole occupying one of the wide positions. He is just not able to effect the game right now and we badly need him to be the heartbeat of the team.

 

 

Attack:

 

1) Fuck all we can do about this really except hope he gets his act together soon. Creating some decent chances for him might help of course.

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

Good post and you actuallly hit the nail on the head in that Roy doesnt like to play a pressing game that Rafa does he is much more of the Houllier and Cuper style of counter attacking football that never wins titles.

 

The solution is very easy adopt your suggestions with Alex McLeish as manager

[hus]

Agree with pretty much all of that. The thing about Blackpool is interesting. They have scored four times as many goals as us simply by taking the game to teams, playing with freedom and actually trying to win. I guarantee that they won't go to Birmingham looking to contain them and not creating a meaningful chance in the first 45 minutes. So why the fuck should we?

 

Because thats what Fulham would do?

 

I know I know, the sooner Roy realises that he is managing Liverpool and not some mid table wannabes the better. Great post MLB, I want things to change and I keep hoping that i am wrong about Roy but I just dont see it happening.

[Il Fenomeno]

-----------------------------Reina------------------------------

 

Johnson--------Carragher----------Agger----------Konchesky

 

---------------------Gerrard-----Meireles---------------------

 

Maxi-------------------------Cole------------------------Babel

 

----------------------------Torres--------------------------------

 

I know people will say we need a defensive midfielder at least but ill be honest right now i am sick to death of them. Obviously we will need to play on half the games we play but i just think we need to add a bit more football to our side then having frig all the middle like against Birmingham. Why not try it? if it dont work, we have options to change it back to a defensive midfielder.

 

Every team needs a ball winner.

[redsfan]

Completely agree with you mate, Cole will take up Gerrard's place and provide him with excellent balls like he did for N'gog. Gerrard and Meireles have the duty of being box to box midfielders that defend, but more importantly get forward and attack. If we can't score with this team, we're fucked!

 

Exactly mate I have enough faith in both of them to provide some defensive cover. It can only not work but it is worth a try!

 

I agree with you Il fenomeno but I do have faith in Gerrard having the ability to do that. I know he is not getting any younger but christ some of the best tackles in the middle of the park throughout the years has come from him in the past. It may not work and it may be that Gerrard doesnt want that responsibility and if that is the case we change our style again but if Roy was to try it and give Gerrard that responsibility and it works our midfield could go from being pretty inept to rather sufficient and strong!

[George Costanza]

only thread i've read thanks to my shitty fucking phone but some excellent points MLB. I';m not going to comment on them but reply to your 2nd post. Totally agree. i never in a million years ever thought i'd write this but at present Blackpool show far more ambition than Liverpool. Yep they'll get hit for 6 a few times this season but with their refereshing attacking attitude I think & hope they'll take plenty of points against the weaker teams to keep them up. Obviously thats not our goal but given their whole squad gets paid less than Gerrard and Torres do in a year, it makes our efforts so far this season a little embarrasing.

[Jose Jones]

Continuing from a post in another thread, I thought it might be worthwhile (or even just cathartic) to discuss why we are playing so badly at the moment, and what we might be able to do to fix it. Apologies if this goes on a bit, but clearly we have a lot of problems...

 

Defense:

 

1) We are defending too deeply. This might be because of a lack of pace or it might just be the way that Roy likes to play, but either way it is causing the midfield to drop back much further than it should and leaving the front two horrible isolated. It also leads to way too many aimless punts from the back by Carra that are meat and drink for any modern defender worth his salt.

 

2) Johnson. His form is not good, and defensively he looks worse than he ever has right now. He is out of position far too often and needs a fucking haircut.

 

3) Set pieces. I shit myself every time we concede one. Obviously we have changed the way we defend them, and it might take a while before we fully adapt to man marking again after playing zonally for a few years, but you would like to think that a group of experienced internationals and Paul Konchesky would be able to get the hang of it in short order. Oh, and Skrtel's Steven Regal impressions in the box need to stop as well.

 

 

Midfield:

 

1) No width. By that I mean no one who is able beat a full back and/or create something from wide areas. Jovanovic is a trier but he makes Milan Baros look like Jari Litmanen with his "head down, run as fast as you can into a blind alley" routine. On the other side, Kuyt is badly out of form and Maxi just doesn't look arsed. No wonder Torres spends so much time running into channels when he should be the one in the box trying to get on the end of things. I honestly don't think any of our current wide players are even as good as Vladimir Smicer.

 

2) Poulsen and Lucas. This needs no explaining really. I think I will have a fucking aneurism if these two line up together against the Mancs. They are far too similar, and neither of them is really good enough. I'd give Poulsen the nod if we have to pick one of them though as he can't possibly offer us less than Lucas. I'd rather have a concussed Daniel Agger in midfield than Lucas.

 

Attack:

 

1) Only point here, really. I know he's coming off an injury and he is largely starved of service, but that's no excuse for strolling around with a face like a smacked arse when you should be pressuring defenders and closing people down. Say what you want about N'Gog but he always puts the effort in and, in my opinion, has given more for the team in his few appearances this season than 'Nando has.

 

In general:

 

1) Late substitutions. We've had years of this under Rafa, but Roy seems to be just as bad for it, if not worse. If the game is drifting from us and we're showing no signs of creating anything the last thing I want to see is the manager sitting on his fucking hands. I can't deal with another season of us failing to turn up for the first 45 minutes and then not seeing any changes made until it's too fucking late.

 

2) Defeatist comments in interviews. This needs to stop now. It makes my blood boil. It's de-motivating and corrosive to our confidence. Simple as.

 

 

Solutions:

 

1) Play Agger and not Skrtel. He's a better defender, better passer of the ball and he's also quicker. He's no Usain Bolt like but he would definitely allow us to defend a bit higher up the pitch, and would also provide us with an outlet by bringing the ball into midfield and picking out passes.

 

2) Either drop him for Kelly, who has played better than him when he's been given the chance, or try him on the right wing. It's hard to imagine him giving us less there than Maxi did yesterday, and he would at least try and take on the full back now and again.

 

3) Not much that we can do about this except work on it in training. We could play the Greek, who would definitely help us to deal with aerial balls, but we can't play both him and Agger unless we drop Carra (or play him at right back, where his lack of pace could be badly exposed.)

 

 

Midfield:

 

1) As above, we could give Johnson a try on the right. In the absence of the two new wide players that we need, it has to be worth a go. I would also consider giving Babel a go on the left. He could potentially be even worse than Jovanovic if I'm being honest, but I don't see that we have much to lose by giving it a go. It's depressing to consider the options we had though, and the fact that we didn't go after any wide players in the summer.

 

2) Right now I would play Gerrard deeper. So far this season he has looked a lot better there than he has behind Torres, where he has been isolated and unable to make any impression on the game. Then we could either play Meireles alongside him and Cole off Torres, or Poulsen alongside him and Meireles off Torres, with Cole occupying one of the wide positions. He is just not able to effect the game right now and we badly need him to be the heartbeat of the team.

 

 

Attack:

 

1) Fuck all we can do about this really except hope he gets his act together soon. Creating some decent chances for him might help of course.

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

It's not a lame excuse. The only credible analysis is an holistic one. The players and manager are consistently voicing their disapproval of the owners. The previous manager did it too. It's clearly affecting them. The political atmosphere is suffocating the club and the players. It's not going to go away until after we have new owners.

 

You can't compare other clubs having our players, because the players we have now are the players we have now in a specific time, in a specific environment - you can't separate the players from Liverpool Football Club how it is right now. This was a point I was consistently trying to make whilst Rafa was here.

 

The players are working in a difficult, politically charged organisation without a realistic chance of fulfilling their ambitions here. Football is more than work, it's about dreams to the best players, it's about aspirations to win trophies. They aren't likely to win trophies under the guidance of messrs Hicks and Gillett. The players know this.

 

Imagine turning up to work each day knowing that you weren't going to meet your personal targets, concerned that the situation was deteriorating and was unlikely to rectify any time soon. When you figure in that it's their overarching ambition, one they've worked at since early childhood, and you consider that they have a 15 year window in which to realise their dreams, you can easily arrive at a situation where they feel hopeless.

 

It's not solely about the raw attributes of the players, it's about their mentality and, even the most psychologically resilient would be struggling there at the moment - it must be a difficult place to work. Constantly lied to by the board, and being given false promises about investment and the manager's spending potential is beginning to grind them down.

 

I think both of these sum it up pretty well.

[Salou]

Everything and Nothing.

[Best Believe It]

As Dirk said, the psychological effects of playing for Liverpool or even working there are seriously undermining any good work done by anyone, and it is clearly deeply affecting the players, as it did last season and as it did Rafa. Until this is sorted out, everything else is window-dressing, essentially.

 

Once that's sorted out, I think it's pretty clear we would need the following:

 

A centre-back in the mould of Hyypia, dominant in the air and good on the ball, to play alongside Agger.

 

A top class left back who can defend and attack.

 

A top class defensive midfielder.

 

A top class left sided attacking midfielder.

 

A striker who can play when Torres isn't fit.

 

I'd be tempted to not sign anyone for the right midfield slot, bearing in mind we have Amoo, Sterling and Silva all coming through.

[silverlining]

Some good points there.

 

Defence: well, agreed that Magic is looking and playing without any speed of thought. Also looks a bit tubby. But I don't think the answer is to shove him at RM. Quick, attacking full-backs need the space to run into, and he'd struggle even more if stationed further forward. Because he isn't a right midfielder. I still think he's agood player, just needs to get some form back.

 

Agger needs to replace Skrtel, who has really horrible against Brum.

 

Magic------Carra----------Agger-------Konch

 

Midfield: Only a lunatic would play Poulsen and Lucas together again. They're terrible players. However, Poulsen is slightly less terrible than Lucas, and is the only holding midfielder we have, so I suppose we're fucking stuck with him. I don't know enough about Meireles to know if he can play in CM with Gerrard and ensure we have enough defensive protection,so until then Poulsen keeps his place.

 

Until Kuyt is back, I suppose one option would be to play Cole in a narrow right-sided AM role, and give Babel a run on the opposite side. Maxi is useless, and while I haven't written off Jova yet, he has been a little bit ineffective.

 

-------------------Poulsen------------

 

--Cole-----Gerrard------------Meireles------Babel

 

-------------------Torres---------------

 

Attack: Torres is all we have. Eggnog isn't good enough, and while he has looked grumpy and ineffective, he's still a world class talent. Hopefully with Meireles, Gerrard and Cole supporting he won't be as isolated and will have better service.

 

So that's what our best team looks like now, I suppose.

[Best Believe It]

I think getting Cole, Gerrard and Meireles on the pitch together and getting an understanding going between them is key. Ditto keeping the same defensive four for the next few games (Skrtel out, Agger in)

[Sandman]

Would you play Poulsen instead of Lucas against the Mancs this weekend? I'd prefer Lucas I think, alongside Raul.

 

I agree with almost all of MLB's points as well.

[silverlining]

Would you play Poulsen instead of Lucas against the Mancs this weekend? I'd prefer Lucas I think, alongside Raul.

 

I agree with almost all of MLB's points as well.

 

 

Poulsen for me. He is - ostensibly - a holding midfielder. Perhaps not a very good one, but a shit version of Hamann is better than nothing.

 

Lucas isn't even a footballer, so hopefully he will never play for Liverpool again.

[Trucker Paddy]

Torres has scored 3 goals in last 3 starts for club/country

Merelis and Cole now available, I agree we were shit Sunday but I'm optimistic if we go into staeua and manc games with positive Attitude and selection next Monday we'll all be in better mood

[JohanH]

We really need to look like we have a plan going forward and for me it should involve movement off the ball, passing and taking some chances.

 

Key is midfield- I would play Poulsen sitting deep behind Meireles and Gerrard. No need to designate either of the two latter as the Torres support- they should be good enough to interchange. I would play Cole off the right with licence to roam and allow Johnson to become more of a wing back on that side. That means on the left we need someone to keep the width- as we do not have anyone capable of staying wide and taking men on I would actually consider Kuyt there and have him play as he does for the Dutch (i.e. mainly recycle the ball in to the playmakers).

 

Up front there is Torres.

 

At the end of the day, though, the biggest thing missing is some passion and some belief. We often start games decently and then fall apart after about 20min if we have not scored- this exactly when we should step up one gear and believe.

 

 

Edit-

Forgot the defense as actually not too much wrong there if our midfield could keep the ball and press when they lose it- avoid all the unbalanced counter attacks and crosses where the opposing player has all the time in the world to aim and cross.

[WilliamW]

Poulsen for me. He is - ostensibly - a holding midfielder. Perhaps not a very good one, but a shit version of Hamann is better than nothing.

 

Lucas isn't even a footballer, so hopefully he will never play for Liverpool again.

This is funny stuff :D

 

Completely agree, btw.

[redfromtubebar]

What concerns me is the mentality and approach that the management are showing at the moment.

 

For example, failing to win at Birmingham should be classed as two points lost, not one point gained. I was aghast to read Hodgson's comments following the match. Of course Birmingham is a difficult place to go but they're a midtable side at best and we treated them as though they were Ajax circa 1995. The team were set up to take a point and didn't even appear to believe that they had the capabilities or ambition to win.

 

The previous game, at home to West Brom, was an atrocious performance that worried me perhaps more than Sunday. At home, to cannon fodder, and the players were abysmal and barely deseved their 1-0 win. This is the type of game where the shackles should be off and the players can enjoy their football. For me, it was a deeply unconvincing performance.

 

The previous season, many people argued that it was Rafa who was strangling the teams creativity and that his departure would lead to the players firing on all of their attacking cylinders. As far as I can see, the players look more restricted than ever.

[Gary Mac Legend]

The previous season, many people argued that it was Rafa who was strangling the teams creativity and that his departure would lead to the players firing on all of their attacking cylinders. As far as I can see, the players look more restricted than ever.

 

 

People are still blaming Rafa, saying his negative style has made it so our players must have forgotten how to attack? Excuses now are also that players needs to adapt to how Roy wants them to play and shite like that. Shocking really, when are people just going to admit that Roy Hodgson is more negative than Benitez?

[sr.red79]

The biggest problem of the lot is we still haven't had our full team on the pitch for one game, nevermind a run of games. It would be great to just click from the off but this isn't FM.

 

We've had a very difficult start to the season and haven't done too badly all things considering. Things will pick up from here on in

ye spot on lad

[sr.red79]

pepe

 

glen carra agger paul k

 

maxi poulson gerrard jova

 

cole

 

torres

 

play that team for a run of games if anyone's playing shit drop them give someone else a run

[Sol18]

The answer to the question is simple. This manager's tactics and approach to any game so far does not suit us. Forget the ownership issue for a second and hypothetically replace the manager with a more adventurous attacking minded manager with the same players we have on our books now. You'll see the results!