Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[mattyq]

1 minute ago, Boss said:

Prove any of the things I've said wrong then. Go on. 

Why?

Cloggy's already published several links which thoroughly debunk the Irish slave meme

The Wikipedia article mentions that it's a common trope on Stormfront, the white supremacist, Fascist and all round utter scum site... I don't know about you but if I found myself ever repeating shit pushed by utter vermin like that I'd be having a good look at myself

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Boss said:

Prove any of the things I've said wrong then. Go on. 

That's not how the burden of proof works, sweetness. 

[Boss]

29 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Why?

Cloggy's already published several links which thoroughly debunk the Irish slave meme

The Wikipedia article mentions that it's a common trope on Stormfront, the white supremacist, Fascist and all round utter scum site... I don't know about you but if I found myself ever repeating shit pushed by utter vermin like that I'd be having a good look at myself

 

Firstly I've never seen that meme and secondly I've never been on Stormfront in my life so I know precisely zero about any of that.

 

I know that the Irish slaves were brutally treated, and to act like it was a myth is quite frankly nonsense and needs to be called out as such. I don't care if someone's wrote an article on the internet debunking it. You can find an article proving or debunking anything. Firstly it categorically did happen. Secondly many of them did not choose it, it was forced upon them because they were convicts or in some cases they were kidnapped. Also they were beaten and abused. Their indentures were increased for all sorts of things, legally. Some of them were burnt alive for minor infractions - before the laws were changed.

 

I find it funny when moof makes a statement like "There’s no history of whites being systemically oppressed in this country" when you only need to look at our historical treatment of the Irish or Longshanks's treatment of the Scots to see that's just factually untrue. 

[moof]

Jesus fuck

[Pureblood]

54 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

That's not how the burden of proof works, sweetness. 

Space lizards control the Earth.  Go on, show that I'm wrong.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

26 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

Firstly I've never seen that meme and secondly I've never been on Stormfront in my life so I know precisely zero about any of that.

 

I know that the Irish slaves were brutally treated, and to act like it was a myth is quite frankly nonsense and needs to be called out as such. I don't care if someone's wrote an article on the internet debunking it. You can find an article proving or debunking anything. Firstly it categorically did happen. Secondly many of them did not choose it, it was forced upon them because they were convicts or in some cases they were kidnapped. Also they were beaten and abused. Their indentures were increased for all sorts of things, legally. Some of them were burnt alive for minor infractions - before the laws were changed.

 

I find it funny when moof makes a statement like "There’s no history of whites being systemically oppressed in this country" when you only need to look at our historical treatment of the Irish or Longshanks's treatment of the Scots to see that's just factually untrue. 

Up to the 19th Century, at least, the Irish were considered an inferior race.

 

I don't know whether Longshanks considered the Scots an inferior race, or whether he just considered them some people who had some land that he wanted.

 

None were oppressed for being white.

[Sugar Ape]

8 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Up to the 19th Century, at least, the Irish were considered an inferior race.

 

 

 

Did you know they call a chippy a ‘chipper?’ And an ice cream a ‘poke. ‘

 

Meaning that most Irish people have asked kids if they wanted a poke.

 

Maybe these 19th century people were onto something...

 

https://www.thedailymeal.com/travel/10-weirdest-irish-slang-food-and-drink-terms

[Numero Veinticinco]

Don’t forget ‘a fry’. 

[Sugar Ape]

I’ll die for the right to think anyone who calls a chippy a chipper is inferior to me.

[Anny Road]

They deserve to run out of spuds again. Let’s see how many chippers there are then.

[cloggypop]

2 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

They deserve to run out of spuds again. Let’s see how many chippers there are then.

I'm expecting to see this post on Newsnight later with you quoted as a hardcore Corbynite. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Irish Jews, you say? 

[Denny Crane]

 

The tax-free personal allowance, which rises to £12,500 in April, should be scrapped and replaced with a flat payment of £48 a week for every adult, according to radical proposals welcomed by shadow chancellor John McDonnell.

The proposal, from the New Economics Foundation thinktank, is for a £48.08 “weekly national allowance,” amounting to £2,500.16 a year from the state, paid to every adult over the age of 18 earning less than £125,000 a year. The cash would not replace benefits and would not depend on employment.

The policy idea has been welcomed by the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and the Green MP Caroline Lucas, and would mean that as many as 88% of all adults would see their post-tax income rise or stay the same, helping to lift 200,000 families across the country out of poverty.

Advertisement

The weekly payments would be fully funded by the abolition of the tax-free personal allowance, which has seen inflation-busting increases under the Conservatives over the past 10 years, but which NEF said had benefited richer households most.

 

For someone on £25,000 a year, the personal allowance means that the first £12,500 of their earnings, from this April, are not charged basic rate tax at 20%. This is worth £2,500. But if the same person is paid £48 a week instead, they will receive £2,496 a year, so they will be no better or worse off.

Alfie Stirling of the New Economics Foundation said: “The persistent increases to the personal allowance of income tax seen over the past decade represent one of the most expensive and regressive public spending initiatives of the 21st century so far. Costing more than the whole of defence, local government and the Department for Transport combined and enriching the highest income households almost seven times faster than the poorest.”

 

The leftwing thinktank, which has developed close links with Labour to become a key influencer of shadow Treasury thinking, estimates the current cost of the tax-free allowance is as much as £111.2bn.

It said the change would transfer about £8bn currently spent on tax allowances that benefit the 35% of highest income households to the rest of the country.

 

The policy is likely to face opposition from some voters, as it would also mean bringing down the threshold for higher-rate taxpayers from £50,000 to £37,500. This is because the starting point for 40% income tax moves with the personal allowance. NEF said this would affect the top 13% of earners in the country.

 

McDonnell said: “This is just the kind of innovative thinking we need on how to fix the imbalances and problems of our tax system.

“I hope it will be the start of a debate about how we make tax more progressive and deliver the public services funding that is so badly needed after nine years of austerity.”

The richest 10% of households will be £1,470 better off by 2019-20 as a result of changes to the personal allowance since 2010, compared with just £130 for each of the poorest 10% of households.

 

The Treasury said the personal allowance has removed nearly 2 million people from income tax, and that income inequality in Britain is falling. In a statement, it said: “We’re raising the personal allowance one year early, which will mean that by April this year, 1.7 million income taxpayers will have been taken out of tax altogether since 2015-16.

 

“Our policies are highly redistributive. In 2019-20, the lowest income households will receive over £4 in public spending for every £1 they pay in tax on average, and the highest income households will contribute over £5 in tax for every £1 they receive in public spending on average.

“Income inequality is lower now than it was in 2010.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/11/scrap-tax-free-personal-allowance-and-pay-everyone-48-a-week

[aRdja]

1 minute ago, Denny Crane said:

 

The tax-free personal allowance, which rises to £12,500 in April, should be scrapped and replaced with a flat payment of £48 a week for every adult, according to radical proposals welcomed by shadow chancellor John McDonnell.

The proposal, from the New Economics Foundation thinktank, is for a £48.08 “weekly national allowance,” amounting to £2,500.16 a year from the state, paid to every adult over the age of 18 earning less than £125,000 a year. The cash would not replace benefits and would not depend on employment.

The policy idea has been welcomed by the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and the Green MP Caroline Lucas, and would mean that as many as 88% of all adults would see their post-tax income rise or stay the same, helping to lift 200,000 families across the country out of poverty.

Advertisement

The weekly payments would be fully funded by the abolition of the tax-free personal allowance, which has seen inflation-busting increases under the Conservatives over the past 10 years, but which NEF said had benefited richer households most.

 

For someone on £25,000 a year, the personal allowance means that the first £12,500 of their earnings, from this April, are not charged basic rate tax at 20%. This is worth £2,500. But if the same person is paid £48 a week instead, they will receive £2,496 a year, so they will be no better or worse off.

Alfie Stirling of the New Economics Foundation said: “The persistent increases to the personal allowance of income tax seen over the past decade represent one of the most expensive and regressive public spending initiatives of the 21st century so far. Costing more than the whole of defence, local government and the Department for Transport combined and enriching the highest income households almost seven times faster than the poorest.”

 

The leftwing thinktank, which has developed close links with Labour to become a key influencer of shadow Treasury thinking, estimates the current cost of the tax-free allowance is as much as £111.2bn.

It said the change would transfer about £8bn currently spent on tax allowances that benefit the 35% of highest income households to the rest of the country.

 

The policy is likely to face opposition from some voters, as it would also mean bringing down the threshold for higher-rate taxpayers from £50,000 to £37,500. This is because the starting point for 40% income tax moves with the personal allowance. NEF said this would affect the top 13% of earners in the country.

 

McDonnell said: “This is just the kind of innovative thinking we need on how to fix the imbalances and problems of our tax system.

“I hope it will be the start of a debate about how we make tax more progressive and deliver the public services funding that is so badly needed after nine years of austerity.”

The richest 10% of households will be £1,470 better off by 2019-20 as a result of changes to the personal allowance since 2010, compared with just £130 for each of the poorest 10% of households.

 

The Treasury said the personal allowance has removed nearly 2 million people from income tax, and that income inequality in Britain is falling. In a statement, it said: “We’re raising the personal allowance one year early, which will mean that by April this year, 1.7 million income taxpayers will have been taken out of tax altogether since 2015-16.

 

“Our policies are highly redistributive. In 2019-20, the lowest income households will receive over £4 in public spending for every £1 they pay in tax on average, and the highest income households will contribute over £5 in tax for every £1 they receive in public spending on average.

“Income inequality is lower now than it was in 2010.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/11/scrap-tax-free-personal-allowance-and-pay-everyone-48-a-week

I like John McDonnell. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke. 

[Strontium]

27 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

Irish Jews, you say? 

 

My grandfather being one of those.

[Rico1304]

20 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I like John McDonnell. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke. 

No thanks. 

[Boss]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Up to the 19th Century, at least, the Irish were considered an inferior race.

 

I don't know whether Longshanks considered the Scots an inferior race, or whether he just considered them some people who had some land that he wanted.

 

None were oppressed for being white.

Well Longshanks was responsible for expelling all the Jews from the UK and he crushed the Scots so I could only guess that he saw the English as superior. 

 

You're right, in the sense that they weren't oppressed because they were white, but they were oppressed and they were white. So you could argue on the grounds of their ethnic makeup (ie Jewish) being responsible for their persecution. 

[Pureblood]

27 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

 

The tax-free personal allowance, which rises to £12,500 in April, should be scrapped and replaced with a flat payment of £48 a week for every adult, according to radical proposals welcomed by shadow chancellor John McDonnell.

The proposal, from the New Economics Foundation thinktank, is for a £48.08 “weekly national allowance,” amounting to £2,500.16 a year from the state, paid to every adult over the age of 18 earning less than £125,000 a year. The cash would not replace benefits and would not depend on employment.

The policy idea has been welcomed by the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and the Green MP Caroline Lucas, and would mean that as many as 88% of all adults would see their post-tax income rise or stay the same, helping to lift 200,000 families across the country out of poverty.

Advertisement

The weekly payments would be fully funded by the abolition of the tax-free personal allowance, which has seen inflation-busting increases under the Conservatives over the past 10 years, but which NEF said had benefited richer households most.

 

For someone on £25,000 a year, the personal allowance means that the first £12,500 of their earnings, from this April, are not charged basic rate tax at 20%. This is worth £2,500. But if the same person is paid £48 a week instead, they will receive £2,496 a year, so they will be no better or worse off.

Alfie Stirling of the New Economics Foundation said: “The persistent increases to the personal allowance of income tax seen over the past decade represent one of the most expensive and regressive public spending initiatives of the 21st century so far. Costing more than the whole of defence, local government and the Department for Transport combined and enriching the highest income households almost seven times faster than the poorest.”

 

The leftwing thinktank, which has developed close links with Labour to become a key influencer of shadow Treasury thinking, estimates the current cost of the tax-free allowance is as much as £111.2bn.

It said the change would transfer about £8bn currently spent on tax allowances that benefit the 35% of highest income households to the rest of the country.

 

The policy is likely to face opposition from some voters, as it would also mean bringing down the threshold for higher-rate taxpayers from £50,000 to £37,500. This is because the starting point for 40% income tax moves with the personal allowance. NEF said this would affect the top 13% of earners in the country.

 

McDonnell said: “This is just the kind of innovative thinking we need on how to fix the imbalances and problems of our tax system.

“I hope it will be the start of a debate about how we make tax more progressive and deliver the public services funding that is so badly needed after nine years of austerity.”

The richest 10% of households will be £1,470 better off by 2019-20 as a result of changes to the personal allowance since 2010, compared with just £130 for each of the poorest 10% of households.

 

The Treasury said the personal allowance has removed nearly 2 million people from income tax, and that income inequality in Britain is falling. In a statement, it said: “We’re raising the personal allowance one year early, which will mean that by April this year, 1.7 million income taxpayers will have been taken out of tax altogether since 2015-16.

 

“Our policies are highly redistributive. In 2019-20, the lowest income households will receive over £4 in public spending for every £1 they pay in tax on average, and the highest income households will contribute over £5 in tax for every £1 they receive in public spending on average.

“Income inequality is lower now than it was in 2010.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/11/scrap-tax-free-personal-allowance-and-pay-everyone-48-a-week

@A Red would never vote for this shenanigans.  Too direct.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, TK421 said:

Space lizards control the Earth.  Go on, show that I'm wrong.

[Pidge]

Longshanks? Really?

 

We going back to William the Conqueror or the Saxon migration while we're at it?  Hadrian's wall a disgusting example of segregation at it's most divisive?

[Boss]

6 hours ago, moof said:

Essentially that racism requires some historical context. There’s no history of whites being systemically oppressed in this country. White people can’t experience actual, structural racism - so any comments based on their skin colour is ultimately benign. 

 

This is the post I'm talking about. Notice the words "no history" and "racism requires some historical context". That seems like an open invitation to talk about the history of racism in the UK to me.

[Pureblood]

7 minutes ago, Pidge said:

Longshanks? Really?

 

We going back to William the Conqueror or the Saxon migration while we're at it?  Hadrian's wall a disgusting example of segregation at it's most divisive?

Walls work.

 

[Denny Crane]

4 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

I’ll be sure to rethink my entire existence because some random internet loon compares me unfavourably to Diane Abbott.

 

 

.

 

I wasn't comparing you to Diane Abbott, I know nothing about you. It was more the flippant dismissive tone to oh it was only Iraq, PFI that is damaging the NHS,  civil liberties and a politician warning about the potential impact of stripping British citizens rights. 

 

 

[Denny Crane]

4 hours ago, Hank Moody said:

I'd take the steam off of Sugar Ape's piss before you. 

 

This makes you look small and you are better than that. 

[Pidge]

4 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

This is the post I'm talking about. Notice the words "no history" and "racism requires some historical context". That seems like an open invitation to talk about the history of racism in the UK to me.

Both statements are clearly wrong, but there's a big difference between "systematic oppression" and racism.  The whole of British (isles) history has been marked with political, religious and military conflicts between the nations.  It's absurdly reductive to put it down to an idea of race (even with antiquated use of the term taken into account).

 

Irish prejudice (extending to perceived Celtic traits, part of the reason us ginges have such a great time of it in our younger years) was a product of political strategy and public relations, rather than an earnest sense of racial superiority (which is what African and Asian "subjects" have had to overcome and I don't think it's right to suggest it's the same thing - it isn't).  I think the satire of Swift uncovers the lie there, the Irish were being victim-blamed at the time to divert pressure from those in power and A Modest Proposal drove the dehumanisation to an extreme length to highlight the stupidity of the propaganda.

 

The Upper classes (of all nations involved - much like every other European state - divine right is often a popular concept for people born into wealth and power) have always considered themselves better than everyone else, hence the servitude, peasantry and villeinage that's existed as long as they have.