World War II

[Lee909]

Russia was always a target for Lebensraum/Living space. Cant remember the exact number but something like 60-80% of the population was to be starved to death the rest were to become a helot class of slaves

[KopOut]

Hitler made some catastrophically stupid decisions which cost them the war.......The decision to attack Russia was galactically stupid.

I rest my case. Hitler as supreme commander of the armed forces, was miltarily incompetant.

 

His top generals insisted Germany would not be ready for war until 1944-46.

 

Germany had extremely limited resources.

 

Fascist Germany and Communist Russia were idealogically opposed. It would always come down to a fight to the death. Although 'backward' at the start of the war, once Russia mobilised (obviously with help) the Weimacht was simply outgunned and out numbered.

 

Ultimately though, Hitler was militarily deficient. His early successes were more about diplomacy.

[magicrat]

I rest my case. Hitler as supreme commander of the armed forces, was miltarily incompetant.

 

His top generals insisted Germany would not be ready for war until 1944-46.

 

Germany had extremely limited resources.

 

Fascist Germany and Communist Russia were idealogically opposed. It would always come down to a fight to the death. Although 'backward' at the start of the war, once Russia mobilised (obviously with help) the Weimacht was simply outgunned and out numbered.

 

Ultimately though, Hitler was militarily deficient. His early successes were more about diplomacy.

 

His early successes were down to some very good Generals who came up with Blitzkrieg which depends on a very efficient supply line. Worked well in the Low Countries but not quite so effective across the vast distances of the Russian Steppes with winter approaching . 

[Frank Dacey]

I can't remember who said it, but I've heard that Chamberlain was aware that Britain would have had its arse handed to it if we'd gone to war in 1938; that he never really trusted Hitler to keep his word, but he used the Munich Treaty to delay the kick-off until we could get tooled up.

Chamberlain as Chancellor of the Exchequer had had to find the money for British rearmament in the 1930s. By the time of Munich in 1938 he was acutely aware of the shortcomings of our defences (the radar chain was incomplete, the RAF had only 6 squadrons of Spitfires/Hurricanes) but he also grossly exaggerated German strength. The Germans weren't in a position to attack us in 1938 but our intelligence suggested otherwise, so dodgy dossiers are nit just a product of the Blairite era. Munich did buy us time to rearm but Chamberlain didn't sell it like that. Instead he made a foolish remark about peace in out time and peace with honour and his historical reputation suffered accordingly.

[KopOut]

His early successes were down to some very good Generals who came up with Blitzkrieg which depends on a very efficient supply line. Worked well in the Low Countries but not quite so effective across the vast distances of the Russian Steppes with winter approaching .

what happened in the early Blitzkreig failed.

 

It failed because Hitler's stategy NOT to take Dunkirk immediately after Guderian broke through, was a big turning point in the war. Gudarian urged him to capture the BEF in whole, leaving Britain helpless. Hitler called it WRONGLY.

 

Blitzkreig as you correctly point out, was largely ineffective in the vastness of Russia.

My whole point is that with Hitler as supreme dictatorial commander, Germany's position was always a no-win.

[KopOut]

Wrong. Hitler made some catastrophically stupid decisions which cost them the war.If he'd stuck to the non-aggression pact with Stalin, Russia would quite happily have stayed out of it and taken the gains they were given. Germany would only have had to concentrate on Britain, and would either have succeeded in invading or simply starved us into surrender through a naval blockade.The decision to attack Russia was galactically stupid.

Nevermind what he could/should have done. History shows his military incompetance - which began early at Dunkirk and continued on through 6 yrs of fatally flawed thinking.

[SasaS]

Imagine how good the Germans must have been at soldiering then, since despite their military incompetent leader, it took combined forces of Nato AND Warsaw Pact six years to defeat them. A country not much bigger in size and population than Britain. Which could not count on US help in food and weapons and rely on the biggest navy in the world and a vast empire.

[Lee909]

Jesus you are acting like having the Italians as allies means nothing

 

[SasaS]

Ha ha...I forgot about that...and all that despite having Italians as allies.

[s(k)aturation]

Chamberlain tried to prevent a war and kudos for the effort, but ultimately he failed. Churchill was no saint by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm unsure what exactly you expected him to do. Up until the collapse of the Nazi-Soviet Non Aggression Pact when the Germans attacked Russian positions in Poland in June '41, Britain was basically the only man standing in Europe and were getting battered into the ground Russia basically presented his only option as an ally given the Americans were holding off and only joined after Pearl Harbour in December.

 

All alas is fair in love and war, I guess, Shands.

[s(k)aturation]

Wrong. Hitler made some catastrophically stupid decisions which cost them the war. If he'd stuck to the non-aggression pact with Stalin, Russia would quite happily have stayed out of it and taken the gains they were given. Germany would only have had to concentrate on Britain, and would either have succeeded in invading or simply starved us into surrender through a naval blockade. The decision to attack Russia was galactically stupid.

 

Hitler was a fuckwit and a crackpot.

Hard to win taking on the whole world, from that starting point.

[s(k)aturation]

Imagine how good the Germans must have been at soldiering then, since despite their military incompetent leader, it took combined forces of Nato AND Warsaw Pact six years to defeat them. A country not much bigger in size and population than Britain. Which could not count on US help in food and weapons and rely on the biggest navy in the world and a vast empire.

 

The US gave Germany plenty of "secret" aid in the rearmament period of the 1930s.

[magicrat]

All alas is fair in love and war, I guess, Shands.

 

 

No, if you'd read other posts on here properly, you would have ascertained that my problem with Churchill was the fate to which he disdainfully left Slavs in the 1940s.  And that includes the various post-war peace time deals, where he was a key figure in the convenient and ill-conceived reformation of Yugoslavia, for example.  That led to a politically repressive and subversive microcosmic "Stalinist" regime under Tito (a rare Slavic Buckingham Palace darling, and cunt), which ultimately ended in Europe's "World War III" in 1991.

 

And by the way, I am not English but Australian, where I generally always vote "Tory" (I wouldn't in England, I'll grant you that).

My father grew up in the former Yugoslavia and my mother was a displaced person from behind the Iron Curtain, where the left wing "welfare" states was a bad, murderous joke.

I guess my heritage has informed my politics somewhat, and like I said earlier in this thread, the winners and losers of wars have differing views and stories. Some factual, some myth.

But I have enough historical information at my disposal to form a reasonable opinion that Churchill sold my Mum and Dad's people down the river - during the war fair enough OK, but also after the war... and that bit I reckon he was an arse for, because he knew full well what "Communists" like Stalin and Tito were like, and yet his actions and gestures contributed to their being allowed to wreak further havoc and misery.

Fair enough, thanks for the insight into your perspective

Churchill was unceremoniously dumped on his arse by electorate in 1945 so he was not loved for his leadership in peacetime . His efforts as First Lord of the Admiralty in WW1 in the Gallipoli disaster would have ensured he never became PM unless it was for Chamberlain's failure to secure peace. He was however possibly all that stood between the country and defeat in 1940   

[s(k)aturation]

That's nonsense

Not the bit about Chamberlain trying to prevent a war, To be kind to him he was naive 

Churchill saw action  in the Boer war and to be fair he was very hands on in WW2 undertaking some very perilous journeys to meet his allies and support his generals. He was  a Tory and a member of the aristocracy which seems the root of your disdain  

 

No, I vote conservative here in Australia actually (mind you, that's not quite like voting Tory in Britain, I'll grant)

My father grew up in the former Yugoslavia and my mother was a displaced person from behind the Iron Curtain. They were both born during World War II.  I can understand Churchill's actions in war, perhaps, but his peacetime deals... that led for instance, to Yugoslavia's reformation and "Stalin Jr" aka Tito, and his repressive political regime that resulted ultimately, in Europe's World War III in 1991... were unforgivable given he knew full well what that people like Stalin and Tito were like.

And saying he was bowing to the US's will is no excuse in my book.

Churchill was a great leader, not a follower or so the story goes.

These were actions that sold my Dad and Mum's people down the river, and led to much more repression and misery well beyond 1945, in fact, well into the 90s.  So I'll admit, my heritage does inform my politics for sure.  

But I have had enough information at my disposal and done enough study to say it is not just an emotional but also an informed standpoint.

 

 

(Apologies, magic, for repeating myself, but my previous post on this appears to somehow have been wiped, so I wrote it again.)

[magicrat]

The US gave Germany plenty of "secret" aid in the rearmament period of the 1930s.

They did . George W's  Grandaddy was one of them 

[s(k)aturation]

Fair enough, thanks for the insight into your perspective

Churchill was unceremoniously dumped on his arse by electorate in 1945 so he was not loved for his leadership in peacetime . His efforts as First Lord of the Admiralty in WW1 in the Gallipoli disaster would have ensured he never became PM unless it was for Chamberlain's failure to secure peace. He was however possibly all that stood between the country and defeat in 1940   

 

Mind you, I'm a hypocritical cunt.

 

I'd have happily had a Champagne and brandy chaser with Winny.

[Hades]

No, I vote conservative here in Australia actually (mind you, that's not quite like voting Tory in Britain, I'll grant)

Twat. On the ignore list you go.

[s(k)aturation]

Twat. On the ignore list you go.

Didn't have you down as that fickle, Hades, old bean. Ignore away, mate, if that's all it takes for you.

It won't change all the time's you and I have agreed though.

Better take me off your friend list that you put me on too then.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Twat. On the ignore list you go.

Mate I think you will find that those of us in the colonies, where the class divide does not exist except between aboriginal peoples and Europeans, quote a few of us have voted Tory.

[Hades]

Mate I think you will find that those of us in the colonies, where the class divide does not exist except between aboriginal peoples and Europeans, quote a few of us have voted Tory.

 

You too? Bye.

[s(k)aturation]

Known for its tolerance the extreme left, NP.

And its total understanding of politics on other sides of oceans and the world.

 

And about as humanist and humanitarian as the extreme right.

[KopOut]

The US gave Germany plenty of "secret" aid in the rearmament period of the 1930s.

.....and I believe it was J.P. Morgan who bailed out a bankrupt Nazi Party in 1933, or there abouts.

[KopOut]

Fair enough, thanks for the insight into your perspective

Churchill was unceremoniously dumped on his arse by electorate in 1945 so he was not loved for his leadership in peacetime . His efforts as First Lord of the Admiralty in WW1 in the Gallipoli disaster would have ensured he never became PM unless it was for Chamberlain's failure to secure peace. He was however possibly all that stood between the country and defeat in 1940

All that stood between The Isles and defeat in 1940 was Adolf Hitler. Time and again he was able to extract defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

I believe there was an assassination attempt on him, quite early on in the war ( not the famous one at the 'wolf's lair')

 

Now If that had been successful, the outcome of ww2, may have been very different.

[Lee909]

Are you talking about the assassination attempt in the beer hall. A xlock maker put a bomb in s post by were he was givibg a speech. He cut short his visit by 15minutes which is what saved his life

[SasaS]

All that stood between The Isles and defeat in 1940 was Adolf Hitler.

 

More like 20 miles of water.