Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Babb'sBurstNad]

The last page or so highlights the absurdity of a vote behind which no manifesto or unified position is given. Just a nebulous string of ideas, half truths and mooted scenarios from both sides, trying to be all things to all men.

 

I'm more than happy to be considered a hypocrite and say I simply want to reverse the decision. The biggest fallacy of the whole debacle has been the idea that if the Tories give Eurosceptics a vote, that'll stop people drifting to other right wing parties and ideologies. The truth is, it'll never be enough for some. Instead, they're now emboldened and inside the tent, pissing on everyone.

 

The vote hasn't caused divisions in society, and another won't cause any more; they were there anyway, and always will be. Getting UKIP voters to leave that party doesn't suddenly lessen the number of xenophobes and racists in the country.

 

As for a second vote, well I tend to think of it as an eating in or going out analogy. If your family decides 4 to 3 to leave the lasagne in the fridge, and go out, fine. However, once you're in the car you have a further decision to make, where to go? If the only place open is the roadside kebab stall that gave you the shits, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the kids if they might prefer that lasagne after all.

[Anny Road]

1 minute ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The last page or so highlights the absurdity of a vote behind which no manifesto or unified position is given. Just a nebulous string of ideas, half truths and mooted scenarios from both sides, trying to be all things to all men.

 

I'm more than happy to be considered a hypocrite and say I simply want to reverse the decision. The biggest fallacy of the whole debacle has been the idea that if the Tories give Eurosceptics a vote, that'll stop people drifting to other right wing parties and ideologies. The truth is, it'll never be enough for some. Instead, they're now emboldened and inside the tent, pissing on everyone.

 

The vote hasn't caused divisions in society, and another won't cause any more; they were there anyway, and always will be. Getting UKIP voters to leave that party doesn't suddenly lessen the number of xenophobes and racists in the country.

 

As for a second vote, well I tend to think of it as an eating in or going out analogy. If your family decides 4 to 3 to leave the lasagne in the fridge, and go out, fine. However, once you're in the car you have a further decision to make, where to go? If the only place open is the roadside kebab stall that gave you the shits, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the kids if they might prefer that lasagne after all.

Would make more sense as a father to find out where is open before you ask the question. Unless you are a feeble minded shit bag and say it just to shut them up.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

2 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

Would make more sense as a father to find out where is open before you ask the question. Unless you are a feeble minded shit bag and say it just to shut them up.

Well, Cameron did leave his kid in a pub. Seems par for the course with him.

[magicrat]

12 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The last page or so highlights the absurdity of a vote behind which no manifesto or unified position is given. Just a nebulous string of ideas, half truths and mooted scenarios from both sides, trying to be all things to all men.

 

I'm more than happy to be considered a hypocrite and say I simply want to reverse the decision. The biggest fallacy of the whole debacle has been the idea that if the Tories give Eurosceptics a vote, that'll stop people drifting to other right wing parties and ideologies. The truth is, it'll never be enough for some. Instead, they're now emboldened and inside the tent, pissing on everyone.

 

The vote hasn't caused divisions in society, and another won't cause any more; they were there anyway, and always will be. Getting UKIP voters to leave that party doesn't suddenly lessen the number of xenophobes and racists in the country.

 

As for a second vote, well I tend to think of it as an eating in or going out analogy. If your family decides 4 to 3 to leave the lasagne in the fridge, and go out, fine. However, once you're in the car you have a further decision to make, where to go? If the only place open is the roadside kebab stall that gave you the shits, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the kids if they might prefer that lasagne after all.

Stale lasagne is infinitely preferable to queuing up for hours to get your bread ration.

[Boss]

24 minutes ago, TK421 said:

This is the best that I can find.  It's eerily silent on leaving the single market, Customs Union and jurisdiction of the ECJ.  Eerily, eerily silent.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36014941

 

 

EU laws override UK laws (ECJ)

While we're in the EU, the UK can't make trade deals on our own (Customs Union)

More than half of net migration that comes to the UK comes from the EU (Single Market)

 

To curb EU migration we must leave the Single Market. To conclude trade deals on our own we must leave the Customs Union and to override EU laws we must forgo rulings from the ECJ. It implies all three in the leaflet.

[magicrat]

2 minutes ago, Boss said:

EU laws override UK laws (ECJ)

While we're in the EU, the UK can't make trade deals on our own (Customs Union)

More than half of net migration that comes to the UK comes from the EU (Single Market)

 

To curb EU migration we must leave the Single Market. To conclude trade deals on our own we must leave the Customs Union and to override EU laws we must forgo rulings from the ECJ. It implies all three in the leaflet.

We have largely had it within our own power to send return EU citizens that don't have jobs and make them have medical insurance. May and Cameron chose not to use the legislation  they already had. 3rd country migration was ,and still is ,the main issue, EU citizens come here for work and make a net positive contribution plus we need them. Not seen any hard evidence that they impact significantly on wages or stop British people getting jobs.

"The outraged man from Sunderland that voted leave because his Pakistani neighbour got a job he didn't want "  Bill Bailey 2016.

[Pureblood]

39 minutes ago, Boss said:

EU laws override UK laws (ECJ)

While we're in the EU, the UK can't make trade deals on our own (Customs Union)

More than half of net migration that comes to the UK comes from the EU (Single Market)

 

To curb EU migration we must leave the Single Market. To conclude trade deals on our own we must leave the Customs Union and to override EU laws we must forgo rulings from the ECJ. It implies all three in the leaflet.

But that's not what you said.  You said it was "made clear".  An implication or three, hidden in the subtext of what is actually written, is not the same thing as clarity. 

 

You can't ask the public to vote on something of this magnitude on the basis of mere implications. 

 

 

[SasaS]

I don't understand, if you are campaigning for something, is there a legal obligation that you have to disclose all the facts and implications of what you are campaigning for, provide an impartial, objective analysis? Isn't this the what the other side should be doing, refuting your claims?

[Pureblood]

4 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I don't understand, if you are campaigning for something, is there a legal obligation that you have to disclose all the facts and implications of what you are campaigning for, provide an impartial, objective analysis? Isn't this the what the other side should be doing, refuting your claims?

Either way, nothing in that leaflet mentions leaving the single market, Customs Union or ECJ.  It's a load of foggy old xenophobic waffle.  

[Babb'sBurstNad]

1 hour ago, magicrat said:

Stale lasagne is infinitely preferable to queuing up for hours to get your bread ration.

I'll be honest, I prefer day old lasagne. The white sauce sets better once it's been left to cool.

[Sugar Ape]

Tim Farron with his finger on the pulse as per.

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Fucking Farron. 

[magicrat]

14 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

I'll be honest, I prefer day old lasagne. The white sauce sets better once it's been left to cool.

Good point well made 

[Boss]

33 minutes ago, TK421 said:

But that's not what you said.  You said it was "made clear".  An implication or three, hidden in the subtext of what is actually written, is not the same thing as clarity. 

 

You can't ask the public to vote on something of this magnitude on the basis of mere implications. 

 

 

Okay, I admit the semantics I used were wrong. I shouldn't have said it was made clear. I'm also sorry about calling you a dickhead and a fool, that was unnecessarily disrespectful and I take it back.  

[skend04]

30 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

Tim Farron with his finger on the pulse as per.

 

 

Is Cumbria day a homophobe jamboree?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

31 minutes ago, magicrat said:

Good point well made 

I'm never afraid to tackle the big issues of the day.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Jacob Rees-Mogg is now calling for the prorogation of Parliament so that a no deal Brexit isn't blocked. 

 

I'm not sure of the exact ins and outs of it, but I believe it means ending a Parliamentary session prematurely. He wants to do this so that MPs can't vote on the current no deal blocking amendments going through Parliament. 

 

He's gone full authoritarian. Or desperate. It appears that he only wants to defend certain forms of democracy. 

[Section_31]

Mogg is a dick head, pure and simple, don't know why anyone pays him any mind. Just because he can regurgitate Latin like a fucking parakeet and dresses like a teenage Mormon.

[Pureblood]

58 minutes ago, Boss said:

Okay, I admit the semantics I used were wrong. I shouldn't have said it was made clear. I'm also sorry about calling you a dickhead and a fool, that was unnecessarily disrespectful and I take it back.  

Sheeit, now what am I supposed to do?  Nobody has ever backed down ever, ever.

 

Thanks, and I don't think you're an outright liar either so I take that back.

 

My main gripe with Brexit is how the leave voters have sought to redefine it after the vote.  Fair enough, Leave won so I accept that Brexit must happen in some form (having said that I'm well pumped for a second referendum).  It seems to me that part of the Leave contingent have scrapped the soft/hard Brexit dichotomy during the negotiation period and are claiming that Brexit meant no deal all along.  That's just not cricket.  

[Remmie]

I'm a bit confused with what the polls are supposed to be saying. I've heard widely contradictory predictions on the results of polls with 3 options on the table, some saying no Brexit would win at a canter but more recently reading that No deal would be a big favourite. 

 

Long story short; reassure me that no Brexit is the most likely result in a second referendum! 

[Anny Road]

It could only win if leave was split between different leave options.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 hours ago, Mook said:

We vote politicians in to make decisions on complex matters like this, it should never have been put to the people.

 

Around 63% of the electorate didn't vote for this mess.

 

Those not allowed to vote like British citizens based in the EU for example.

 

The lies told by the leave campaign.

 

The dodgy funding behind the leave campaign.

 

No one had a clue what sort of deal they were voting for.

 

The whole thing was a complete tory farce from the start & in my opinion, an affront to democracy. There is no democracy in this country, never has been.

 

 

Also, the decades of anti-EU (and anti-immigration) propaganda and lies in the media..

 

You can't have a fair contest on such a skewed pitch.

[Pureblood]

Those angry guys in the shitty hi-vis gear who followed Anna Soubry will properly kick off if there's a second referendum.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, cloggypop said:

I didn't choose to have no say. 

Nor did EU nationals in the UK. 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Those angry guys in the shitty hi-vis gear who followed Anna Soubry will properly kick off if there's a second referendum.  

All 12 of them?