Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Numero Veinticinco]

@Boss, can you please explain to me how giving a democratic vote to the people of the country makes a mockery of democracy? Was democracy a one off event? Do you not think people have a right to change their mind now the picture of what Brexit entails is clearer? Why is more democracy rather than less an affront to democracy? Help me understand. 

[Boss]

18 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

@Boss, can you please explain to me how giving a democratic vote to the people of the country makes a mockery of democracy? Was democracy a one off event? Do you not think people have a right to change their mind now the picture of what Brexit entails is clearer? Why is more democracy rather than less an affront to democracy? Help me understand. 

Because they've already voted and the result of that vote has not been enacted. It's not a general election, you can't just have a vote on the EU, whenever you feel like it, just because you're unhappy with the result. The referendum was framed as a once in a lifetime vote by both sides. The result should be honoured regardless of personal allegiance. Any failure to honour the result is an affront on democracy.

[Mook]

2 minutes ago, Boss said:

Because they've already voted and the result of that vote has not been enacted. It's not a general election, you can't just have a vote on the EU, whenever you feel like it, just because you're unhappy with the result. The referendum was framed as a once in a lifetime vote by both sides. The result should be honoured regardless of personal allegiance. Any failure to honour the result is an affront on democracy.

The referendum was an affront to democracy.

[Boss]

Just now, Mook said:

The referendum was an affront to democracy.

How so?

[Stickman]

I see cunt-hooks Sir James Dyson (big campaigner for leaving) is now upping sticks and moving his business to Singapore which incidentally is in the same free trade area as the EU...

 

In the words of Sid Vicious "ever feel you've been cheated" 

[cloggypop]

5 minutes ago, Boss said:

How so?

Why weren't UK citizens already resident in the EU allowed to vote? 

[skend04]

14 minutes ago, Boss said:

Because they've already voted and the result of that vote has not been enacted. It's not a general election, you can't just have a vote on the EU, whenever you feel like it, just because you're unhappy with the result. The referendum was framed as a once in a lifetime vote by both sides. The result should be honoured regardless of personal allegiance. Any failure to honour the result is an affront on democracy.

The referendum was advisory only, it's clearly stated in the Referendum Act 2015. Any failure to honour the result of an opinion poll isn't an affront to democracy. 

 

Anyways, the mess in Parliament is our MPs trying to honour the fantasy Schroedinger leave campaign and seeing that it isn't possible without disastrous effects on the economy.

[cloggypop]

6 minutes ago, Stickman said:

I see cunt-hooks Sir James Dyson (big campaigner for leaving) is now upping sticks and moving his business to Singapore which incidentally is in the same free trade area as the EU...

 

In the words of Sid Vicious "ever feel you've been cheated" 

@LeaveEUOfficial: They said business would flee if we voted leave, but instead we're seeing great British innovators like Dyson investing in the UK's future! https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/836917129811226624/photo/1

[Chairman Meow]

11 minutes ago, Stickman said:

I see cunt-hooks Sir James Dyson (big campaigner for leaving) is now upping sticks and moving his business to Singapore which incidentally is in the same free trade area as the EU...

 

In the words of Sid Vicious "ever feel you've been cheated" 

He moved manufacturing out of the UK years ago because the local council wouldn't just bow down to his demands.

 

He's a horrible cunt who doesn't give two fucks about his workforce, the local area and presumably the UK in general. All he cares about is skimming as much money as possible for his shit over priced products.

[Anny Road]

I find the dishonesty of remain voters calling for a 'peoples', whatever the fuck that means vote, hypocritical.

They in many cases rightly cited the leave campaign on its lies and misinformation during the referendum campaign however they are being equally disingenuous by asking for the people to have a choice on the terms. They just want the original vote overturned but wont come out and say it.

[skend04]

Just now, Anny Road said:

I find the dishonesty of remain voters calling for a 'peoples', whatever the fuck that means vote, hypocritical.

They in many cases rightly cited the leave campaign on its lies and misinformation during the referendum campaign however they are being equally disingenuous by asking for the people to have a choice on the terms. They just want the original vote overturned but wont come out and say it.

Or they just want a vote on the deal like Rees-Mogg said we should have?

[Anny Road]

2 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Or they just want a vote on the deal like Rees-Mogg said we should have?

They will want remain on the ballot or some concoction of.

[Denny Crane]

If remain won in 2016 something tells me that it was only advisory and wanting more democracy wouldn't be readily used as a rationale for another referendum by the winning side.

 

 

[Mook]

17 minutes ago, Boss said:

How so?

We vote politicians in to make decisions on complex matters like this, it should never have been put to the people.

 

Around 63% of the electorate didn't vote for this mess.

 

Those not allowed to vote like British citizens based in the EU for example.

 

The lies told by the leave campaign.

 

The dodgy funding behind the leave campaign.

 

No one had a clue what sort of deal they were voting for.

 

The whole thing was a complete tory farce from the start & in my opinion, an affront to democracy. There is no democracy in this country, never has been.

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

28 minutes ago, Boss said:

Because they've already voted and the result of that vote has not been enacted. It's not a general election, you can't just have a vote on the EU, whenever you feel like it, just because you're unhappy with the result. The referendum was framed as a once in a lifetime vote by both sides. The result should be honoured regardless of personal allegiance. Any failure to honour the result is an affront on democracy.

So more democracy would be less democratic to you? 

[skend04]

5 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

If remain won in 2016 something tells me that it was only advisory and wanting more democracy wouldn't be readily used as a rationale for another referendum. 

 

 

If Remain had won then I'd have fully expected us to have joined the Euro and Schengen by now. 2 wins in a row deserved at least that.

[Boss]

1 minute ago, Mook said:

We vote politicians in to make decisions on complex matters like this, it should never have been put to the people.

 

Around 63% of the electorate didn't vote for this mess.

 

Those not allowed to vote like British citizens based in the EU for example.

 

The lies told by the leave campaign.

 

The dodgy funding behind the leave campaign.

 

No one had a clue what sort of deal they were voting for.

 

The whole thing was a complete tory farce from the start & in my opinion, an affront to democracy. There is no democracy in this country, never has been.

 

 

 

Where are you getting your figures from on 63% of the electorate? I thought it was a 72% turnout. 

 

That was a bit naughty, admittedly. 

 

As opposed to the Remain campaign flying Obama over to give a speech saying "we'll be back of the queue if we leave" or Osbourne threatening punitive cuts if we left - which miraculously disappeared as soon as the vote was cast, or the shameless use of Jo Cox's murder to drum up support for Remain, or Donald Tusk saying Britain voting to leave would "destroy western civilisation". There were lies and smear on both sides.

 

Men of great wealth are almost all dodgy - with very few exceptions.

 

It was made clear on the pamphlets delivered through the post. Leaving meant leaving the EU, single market, the Customs Union and the European Court of Justice.

 

[Boss]

21 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

So more democracy would be less democratic to you? 

Would you be so keen for more democracy if Remain won?

[Mook]

23 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

Where are you getting your figures from on 63% of the electorate? I thought it was a 72% turnout. 

 

That was a bit naughty, admittedly. 

 

Whatever way you spin it, that vast majority of people in this country did not vote to leave the EU.

[Numero Veinticinco]

25 minutes ago, Boss said:

Would you be so keen for more democracy if Remain won?

Yes. Especially if it turned out that remain would cost us so much and gain is so little. 

 

I beleive in democracy. You are using it to argue in order to get your desired outcome. You can’t argue that more democracy is less democratic than less democracy and not be called out on that bullshit. 

[Boss]

3 minutes ago, Mook said:

Whatever way you spin it, that vast majority of people in this country did not vote to leave the EU.

The ones that didn't vote chose to have no say. The ones that did - the majority voted to Leave. 

[Mook]

1 minute ago, Boss said:

The ones that didn't vote chose to have no say. The ones that did - the majority voted to Leave. 

Aye & plenty of people had no choice either way due to the ridiculous way the voting was set up.

[Boss]

7 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes. Especially if it turned out that remain would cost us so much and gain is so little. 

 

I beleive in democracy. You are using it to argue in order to get your desired outcome. You can’t argue that more democracy is less democratic than less democracy and not be called out on that bullshit. 

Evidently, you don't believe that Remain would "cost us so much and gain so little", so you're imparting your views of Leave, on Remain - as a Remain voter. I asked you if Remain won - with you being a Remain voter - would you be happy to run the whole thing again, dividing the whole country once more to give Leave a second chance?

[Scooby Dudek]

I believe the biggest lie was twats like Mogg, Fox  and ERG always wanted to leave with No deal but didn't have the courage to argue that point. 

That is why they came out with the lies, easiest ever trade deal, all in place day after we leave etc. 

Their entire leave campaign was based on self serving lies.

[Numero Veinticinco]

11 minutes ago, Boss said:

Evidently, you don't believe that Remain would "cost us so much and gain so little", so you're imparting your views of Leave, on Remain - as a Remain voter. I asked you if Remain won - with you being a Remain voter - would you be happy to run the whole thing again, dividing the whole country once more to give Leave a second chance?

Yes. I answered in the first word. I’ll say it again... yes. There’s no harm in checking whether people still want to stay/leave. 

 

That said, the two things aren’t comparable. In staying we knew what would happen. Things would stay the same. With leaving, we didn’t vote for what type of leave we wanted, or what was possible. We do now. We also know that it will cost us billions. Not because it’s my views, it’s official. If no deal seems to be the only option, as it seems to be at the moment, there’s even more reason to make sure the British public want to do it. Knowing now what we didn’t then, the massive cost, and having had two years to digest it, it’s not an affront to democracy to check. If they still want to go, we go.

 

You still haven’t given a coherent answer to why more democracy is less democratic. I think the truth is, you don’t want people to have a second say because you want to leave. That’s fine, but don’t pretend it has anything to do with your love of democracy, whilst arguing against more democracy. It’s intellectually weak.