Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[mattyq]

If history has taught us anything, it's that the UK can't change a damn thing about the EU. Certainly not their core values. But hey, Germany can tear up the rules on asylum and make up their own rules and then force it own the rest of the EU. But if  the UK tries to change its benefits system that would put EU citizens at a disadvantage, then the EU comes down like a ton of bricks on us.

You shouldn't repeat any old shite without looking into it a least a little bit

We're the 2nd largest economy in the EU. Have a guess as to whether this means that we get what we want most of the time or we get fucked over all the time, as you think

Hint....the answer is we get what we want most of the time

If you want to repeat lies and embarrassing bullshit that's fine but it does make you look like a bit of a quim

[Dave D]

If they can't go to Spain then they have to stay here, don't they? So that's another million pensioners you're now looking after aren't you. Which costs money, whether you give a shit or not. 

 

I'm not casually dismissing anything. I'm saying that your logic is that you can't have another kid as the spare room is cluttered up. Yeah, clear the fucking spare room and you can have the kid with very little problem with regards to space.

 

The problem is not inward migration (an economic benefit), it's the management of that migration by an incompetent nation that seems unable to use what is a massive resource.

 

Your last sentence is a touch optimistic at best. The inward migration argument always seems to deal in absolutes- they're either all rapists terrorists or on the other hand, we should be ever so grateful for this willing hardworking workforce that has arrived on our shores with only a strong work ethic on their minds.

 

Basically bollocks from both sides.

[Dave D]

You shouldn't repeat any old shite without looking into it a least a little bit

We're the 2nd largest economy in the EU. Have a guess as to whether this means that we get what we want most of the time or we get fucked over all the time, as you think

Hint....the answer is we get what we want most of the time

If you want to repeat lies and embarrassing bullshit that's fine but it does make you look like a bit of a quim

 

10 out of 10 for being a patronising arse.

[Stu Monty]

Your last sentence is a touch optimistic at best. The inward migration argument always seems to deal in absolutes- they're either all rapists terrorists or on the other hand, we should be ever so grateful for this willing hardworking workforce that has arrived on our shores with only a strong work ethic on their minds.

 

Basically bollocks from both sides.

 

No, the last sentence is fine. It's, as a whole, a massive resource that is net positive for the economy (at least until the immigrants reach retirement age, if they retire here). 

 

It doesn't mean every one of them is boss. It means that the whole situation, when weighed up in total, is a huge resource and if we cannot use that it's down to competence of planning and management.

[Strontium]

Your last sentence is a touch optimistic at best. The inward migration argument always seems to deal in absolutes- they're either all rapists terrorists or on the other hand, we should be ever so grateful for this willing hardworking workforce that has arrived on our shores with only a strong work ethic on their minds.

 

Basically bollocks from both sides.

I don't think it's any stretch to say that the hard workers outnumber the rapists and terrorists by some considerable distance.

[thechap]

 

if we come out of the EU we may have to repatriate a load of economically inactive oldies (or they'll come back) and the young determined immigrants who come here (who on average add to the national balance sheet) will be blocked from coming in.  

 

 

 

I would also concur with him that without EU legislation workers and individual rights would have a wrecking ball taken to them by the current government, not to mention environmental legislation and other public interest sphere's.

 

 

Re our payments Norway pay 357.7 million euros a year for access to the single market. Multiply that with 12 and you will get a pretty good estimate of what access to the single market will cost Britain, about 4 billion Euros a year. Plus, as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the government will still have to implement EU directives, without having any say in how they are shaped.

 

 

 

The UK leaving the EU will be an absolute nightmare on so many levels. The bureaucracy and all other the attendant wrangling will be horrendous on both a macro and micro level. I would also envisage that in cutting off our economic ties with the EU, or even positioning ourselves as a junior partner, there will be an impossibility of even vaguely getting to set the terms in future deals between ourselves and the EU.

 

 

I would also ignore the PR guff about the renegotiation as I would imagine that Cameron didn’t really know what he was trying to negotiate, all he really wanted was something that got his face in the papers/on T.V. with him holding a document stating he had achieved something.

 

 

Okay, to say there will be mass repatriations is simply scaremongering.  All parties who argue for exit have said that no-one who is living here now who came from an EU country will be told to leave.  That is only fair, reasonable, decent and human.  Exactly the same would apply to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU.  Yes, some would be migrants to the UK would be blocked from coming here but that is the whole point of having control of your borders.  You decide who can come in.  If they would be good for the country then they get let in.  If they won't be then they don't.  Why is that a bad policy?

 

Your point about workers' rights I take to a certain extent because I fully wholeheartedly support workers' rights.  I also agree the tories would likely want to see a lot of them removed because some tories are cunts.  If you see that happening then vote Labour who will undoubtedly restore them (I presume that's what most people on this forum believe because it's only ever the tories who are accused of this)

 

I do not know how much the UK would need to pay to access the single market.  I very much doubt it would be anywhere near to the figure you imply (Euro 357.7m x 12).  We are a powerful and rich country who import more from the EU than we export to them.  They NEED our trade.  I can just hear all those businesses in EUland who depend on us to buy their products and the millions of their workers saying "Go on EU, fuck over the UK for leaving.  Who gives a shit if it means they don't buy from us any more and we lose our jobs."  Not going to happen.

 

As for your worry about it being a bureaucratic nightmare - well, diddums.  We would survive the couple of years of hard talk and negotiation that would follow the 'No' vote.  And no-one but no-one is suggesting cutting off economic ties and those that suggest we would be doing so are lying bastards.

 

And how can we ignore the 'renegotiation'?  According to Dave it is a game changer and reforms the EU.  His successful securing of this deal is why he wants us to vote for it.  How can we ignore it - it is his first argument for us to stay.

 

 

 

If they can't go to Spain then they have to stay here, don't they? So that's another million pensioners you're now looking after aren't you. Which costs money, whether you give a shit or not. 

 

I'm not casually dismissing anything. I'm saying that your logic is that you can't have another kid as the spare room is cluttered up. Yeah, clear the fucking spare room and you can have the kid with very little problem with regards to space.

 

The problem is not inward migration (an economic benefit), it's the management of that migration by an incompetent nation that seems unable to use what is a massive resource.

 

 

See my point above about how no-one will be forced to leave their homes wherever they have chosen to make them.  Our pensioners abroad still cost us money, by the way.  Who do you think pays their pensions?  It is not the government of where they are living - it is the UK government.

 

Clear the spare room?  Piss poor comment to make about my argument and frankly beneath you.  How many kids would you like to put in this spare room?  How many will be in there before they start fighting and it gets unhealthy?

 

 

I don't think it's any stretch to say that the hard workers outnumber the rapists and terrorists by some considerable distance.

 

 

Yup, that's almost certainly true.  It's however definitely true that the rapists and terrorists can walk in unchecked.  How many they are in number is pretty irrelevant if your family happen to be walking past one when he pulls out his assault rifle.

[Stu Monty]

Okay, to say there will be mass repatriations is simply scaremongering.  All parties who argue for exit have said that no-one who is living here now who came from an EU country will be told to leave.  That is only fair, reasonable, decent and human.  Exactly the same would apply to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU.  Yes, some would be migrants to the UK would be blocked from coming here but that is the whole point of having control of your borders.  You decide who can come in.  If they would be good for the country then they get let in.  If they won't be then they don't.  Why is that a bad policy?

 

Your point about workers' rights I take to a certain extent because I fully wholeheartedly support workers' rights.  I also agree the tories would likely want to see a lot of them removed because some tories are cunts.  If you see that happening then vote Labour who will undoubtedly restore them (I presume that's what most people on this forum believe because it's only ever the tories who are accused of this)

 

I do not know how much the UK would need to pay to access the single market.  I very much doubt it would be anywhere near to the figure you imply (Euro 357.7m x 12).  We are a powerful and rich country who import more from the EU than we export to them.  They NEED our trade.  I can just hear all those businesses in EUland who depend on us to buy their products and the millions of their workers saying "Go on EU, fuck over the UK for leaving.  Who gives a shit if it means they don't buy from us any more and we lose our jobs."  Not going to happen.

 

As for your worry about it being a bureaucratic nightmare - well, diddums.  We would survive the couple of years of hard talk and negotiation that would follow the 'No' vote.  And no-one but no-one is suggesting cutting off economic ties and those that suggest we would be doing so are lying bastards.

 

And how can we ignore the 'renegotiation'?  According to Dave it is a game changer and reforms the EU.  His successful securing of this deal is why he wants us to vote for it.  How can we ignore it - it is his first argument for us to stay.

 

 

 

 

 

See my point above about how no-one will be forced to leave their homes wherever they have chosen to make them.  Our pensioners abroad still cost us money, by the way.  Who do you think pays their pensions?  It is not the government of where they are living - it is the UK government.

 

Clear the spare room?  Piss poor comment to make about my argument and frankly beneath you.  How many kids would you like to put in this spare room?  How many will be in there before they start fighting and it gets unhealthy?

 

 

 

 

Yup, that's almost certainly true.  It's however definitely true that the rapists and terrorists can walk in unchecked.  How many they are in number is pretty irrelevant if your family happen to be walking past one when he pulls out his assault rifle.

 

As irrelevant as whether they were an immigrant or (hugely more likely) not, I'd say. Also it isn't about repatriations, it's about the fact that there is a trend for our pensioners to go and drain the Spanish services, as opposed to ours. That will have to stop, won't it?

 

Do you accept that stance that immigration is a net positive, economically?

[thechap]

Except if they were an immigrant then it is hugely relevant.

 

You seem to have a very nonchalant attitude towards the issue of international terrorism.  There are plenty of people in Paris who would disagree with you.

[Dave D]

No, the last sentence is fine. It's, as a whole, a massive resource that is net positive for the economy (at least until the immigrants reach retirement age, if they retire here). 

 

It doesn't mean every one of them is boss. It means that the whole situation, when weighed up in total, is a huge resource and if we cannot use that it's down to competence of planning and management.

No. No it's not.

[thechap]

As irrelevant as whether they were an immigrant or (hugely more likely) not, I'd say. Also it isn't about repatriations, it's about the fact that there is a trend for our pensioners to go and drain the Spanish services, as opposed to ours. That will have to stop, won't it?

 

Do you accept that stance that immigration is a net positive, economically?

 

Do you accept the stance that uncontrolled immigration with an open-door policy is very bad and dangerous?  

[Stu Monty]

Except if they were an immigrant then it is hugely relevant.

 

You seem to have a very nonchalant attitude towards the issue of international terrorism.  There are plenty of people in Paris who would disagree with you.

 

What are you talking about. Why are you going to care if the person that just murdered your loved one is an immigrant? People do bad shit, often without any previous. It's a weird mind that thinks it's worse that the criminal wasn't born here.

 

The terrorism comment is just daft. You will not stop all the bad people from doing bad things. Even with control of the borders. You will just spend a whole lot of money because of some misguided fear of the foreign. If you want to stop crime you'd actually be better off spending all this money on the hugley more problematic issue of British criminals, don't you think?

 

Maybe we should put control measures around South Yorkshire? Given that it the hotspot of terror danger in the UK?

 

You'd save more lives with fucking speedbumps than terror defences.

[Stu Monty]

Do you accept the stance that uncontrolled immigration with an open-door policy is very bad and dangerous?  

 

No I don't.

 

I think that freedom of movement in the EU (not the same as uncontrolled immigration) is a good thing. I think if poorly managed, like anything, it can be a problem. I don't think it is "very bad and dangerous" and I'm pretty sure that the figures say that criminality in immigrants is actually lower than the native population, not higher.

 

So, do you accept the figures that show that immigration is, economically, a net positive?

[Dave D]

What are you talking about. Why are you going to care if the person that just murdered your loved one is an immigrant? People do bad shit, often without any previous. It's a weird mind that thinks it's worse that the criminal wasn't born here.

 

The terrorism comment is just daft. You will not stop all the bad people from doing bad things. Even with control of the borders. You will just spend a whole lot of money because of some misguided fear of the foreign. If you want to stop crime you'd actually be better off spending all this money on the hugley more problematic issue of British criminals, don't you think?

 

Maybe we should put control measures around South Yorkshire? Given that it the hotspot of terror danger in the UK?

 

You'd save more lives with fucking speedbumps than terror defences.

 

"People do bad shit? Often with out any previous?"

 

The most unique argument I've heard yet for staying in the EU.

 

For all your pro-immigration rhetoric you seem to have an unhealthy fear of Spanish based British pensioners.

[thechap]

 

Do you accept that stance that immigration is a net positive, economically?

 

By the way, your repeated reference to how economically beneficial immigration is, despite the massive social problems that it brings for large parts of the country and how it affects millions, makes you sound a lot more tory than you would like people to think you are.

 

Do you perhaps run a company that exploits cheap foreign workers at the expense of indigenous workers whose wages get driven down?  Be a bit hypocritical if you did given your support for workers' rights... 

[Dave D]

No I don't.

 

I think that freedom of movement in the EU (not the same as uncontrolled immigration) is a good thing. I think if poorly managed, like anything, it can be a problem. I don't think it is "very bad and dangerous" and I'm pretty sure that the figures say that criminality in immigrants is actually lower than the native population, not higher.

 

So, do you accept the figures that show that immigration is, economically, a net positive?

And now you've turnt into the biggest danger known to man- the neg terrorist.

 

Because I disagree with your opinion.

 

Crack on you rebel you

[thechap]

I'm pretty sure that the figures say that criminality in immigrants is actually lower than the native population, not higher.

 

 

What figures?

[Stu Monty]

And now you've turnt into the biggest danger known to man- the neg terrorist.

 

Because I disagree with your opinion.

 

Crack on you rebel you

 

No Dave, because you're talking to me like a cunt. Not complicated.

[Stu Monty]

By the way, your repeated reference to how economically beneficial immigration is, despite the massive social problems that it brings for large parts of the country and how it affects millions, makes you sound a lot more tory than you would like people to think you are.

 

Do you perhaps run a company that exploits cheap foreign workers at the expense of indigenous workers whose wages get driven down?  Be a bit hypocritical if you did given your support for workers' rights... 

 

Mate, do you accept the economic figures or not? Are we going to have a conversation here or are you going to be daft about it. 

 

You answered the question with a question. I let it go and answered your question honestly. Are you going to do the same?

[thechap]

What are you talking about. Why are you going to care if the person that just murdered your loved one is an immigrant? People do bad shit, often without any previous. It's a weird mind that thinks it's worse that the criminal wasn't born here.

 

The terrorism comment is just daft. You will not stop all the bad people from doing bad things. Even with control of the borders. You will just spend a whole lot of money because of some misguided fear of the foreign. If you want to stop crime you'd actually be better off spending all this money on the hugley more problematic issue of British criminals, don't you think?

 

Maybe we should put control measures around South Yorkshire? Given that it the hotspot of terror danger in the UK?

 

You'd save more lives with fucking speedbumps than terror defences.

 

There is so much wrong with this post that I'd have to spend too long a time picking it apart.  

[Dave D]

No Dave, because you're talking to me like a cunt. Not complicated.

Really? I thought it was fairly run of the mill stuff.

 

And now you've checked the C word in.

 

It's a slippery slope from here, better leave you to cool down before it does get complicated

[skend04]

When you start using the "We will be safe from terrorists if voting out" line you are borderline insane.

[Stu Monty]

Really? I thought it was fairly run of the mill stuff.

 

And now you've checked the C word in.

 

It's a slippery slope from here, better leave you to cool down before it does get complicated

 

Plenty cool. 

 

Good talk, as always.

[thechap]

Mate, do you accept the economic figures or not? Are we going to have a conversation here or are you going to be daft about it. 

 

You answered the question with a question. I let it go and answered your question honestly. Are you going to do the same?

 

I answered your question with a question because you have been somewhat childish with some of your responses rather than addressing my points.

 

Do I accept that immigration brings an economic net-positive to the UK?  My honest answer is probably but I don't know.  There are far too many variables that you don't hear about that we should do.  Does the industrial output of the immigration population outweigh the cost of associated health care, wear and tear of infrastructure, costs to the criminal justice system, increased costs of housing, benefits, money being sent abroad (ie leaving the UK to the benefit of another nation), costs to UK workers whose wages get driven down..?

 

I don't know if the answer is yes to a net-positive.  However, I think some things are more important than money so even if the answer is yes I would sacrifice it to have a more manageable population size.  That doesn't mean kicking everyone out, before you come back with that one.  It means taking in only the people we need to benefit us economically rather than your policy of the more the merrier and to hell with the consequences so long as we're making some money.

[thechap]

When you start using the "We will be safe from terrorists if voting out" line you are borderline insane.

 

Who said that?  I agree with you.

[Stu Monty]

I answered your question with a question because you have been somewhat childish with some of your responses rather than addressing my points.

 

Do I accept that immigration brings an economic net-positive to the UK?  My honest answer is probably but I don't know.  There are far too many variables that you don't hear about that we should do.  Does the industrial output of the immigration population outweigh the cost of associated health care, wear and tear of infrastructure, costs to the criminal justice system, increased costs of housing, benefits, money being sent abroad (ie leaving the UK to the benefit of another nation), costs to UK workers whose wages get driven down..?

 

I don't know if the answer is yes to a net-positive.  However, I think some things are more important than money so even if the answer is yes I would sacrifice it to have a more manageable population size.  That doesn't mean kicking everyone out, before you come back with that one.  It means taking in only the people we need to benefit us economically rather than your policy of the more the merrier and to hell with the consequences so long as we're making some money.

 

I'll stop wasting your time with my childishness then eh.

 

Night.