World War II

[Lee909]

Anyone else fascinated by the war?

 

I can watch the documentaries on the war all day long. 

Some great books out there,anyone want to recommend me some more.

The stackpole military series is well worth a look,i have two of there books,one is the autobiography of a Red Army penal legion officer the other is a autobiography of a Swedish volunteer for the SS.

 

 

There are two people im trying to find a book  one is

 

Lauri Allan Törni

He was a Fin that fought the Russians in the winter war and after there defeat he joined the German army and trained as a saboteur. He escaped various POW camps and prisons during and after the war. After being pardoned in 1948 he emigrated to the U.S changed his name to Larry Thorne and was a major player in the building of the US special forces. He went on t serve and die in Vietman in a helicopter crash while on special ops mission. The found his remains in 1999 and reburied him in the US.

 

The other

 

Kurt Knispel

 

The best tank ace of WWII

 

Legacy With 168 confirmed (possibly as many as 205) kills, Knispel was by far the most successful tanker of the Second World War.^[1] He is even credited with knocking out a T-34 at 2000 meters, besides destroying over 70 enemy anti-tank guns, and countless bunkers and field works. He fought in every type of German tank as a loader, gunner and commander. He was awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, after destroying his fiftieth enemy tank, and the Tank Assault Badge in Gold after more than 100 tank battles. When Knispel's tally had reached 126 enemy tanks (with another 20 unconfirmed kills), he was awarded the German Cross in Gold. He became the only non-commissioned officer in the German tank army to be named in a Wehrmacht communique. As commander of a Tiger I and then a Tiger II, Knispel destroyed another 42 enemy tanks.

Although he was recommended for it four times, Knispel never received the coveted Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.

Knispel's slow promotion is attributed to his conflicts with higher Nazi authorities. Once, for example, he assaulted an SS Einsatzgruppen officer whom he saw mistreating Soviet POWs. Some historians also mention his general lack of military bearing by wearing a goatee and hair longer than regulations allowed. However, according to Lt Colonel Alfred Rubbel, Knispel was always willing to help others (immer gewillt zu helfen) and friendly (freundlich)

 

 

 

The German tanks and later super tanks like the Landkreuzer and Panzer VIII Maus are pretty fascinating ideas. The Landkreuzer would have been huge 1,000 tonnes,39 meters long,14 meters wide and 11 meters high. Its main armament was a pair of 280mm naval guns,secondary armury was a 128mm anti tank gun and 8(yes fucking 8) 20mm AA guns. An average size man could have stood infront of it and it was drive straight over the top of you as it had a 79in ground clearance.

 

The advancement in tanks during the war is immense

Look at the size of the tanks at the opening of the war

Panzer I

 

Elefant/Ferdinand tank 1945

[General Dryness]

Yeah mate I love the idea of those massive tanks, like this one as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster . Real shame is that they're just not practical given that they're just too heavy for terrain, bridges etc. Someone needs to invent anti-gravity.

 

Not WWII, but I like those massive hovercrafts that some militaries use, and the ekranoplan was cool as well.

 

I might have a bit of a thing for large vehicles.

[Lee909]

48 rounds and the barrel was warped

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav

[General Dryness]

This little aquatic runabout is a favourite of mine.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato

[SasaS]

I'm fascinated by the fact how few people in Britain, even among historians, realize or admit the WWII in Europe was won by the Red Army and not by cracking the Enigma or destroying some dry dock in France or even engaging some German second rate divisions on the Dutch border with Germany for a couple of months.

[General Dryness]

It was 'Murica that won it, fuck yeah. Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day yeah.

[Kevin D]

Hoped we'd get beat.

[SasaS]

I was listening the other day to a BBC’s radio series on the history of deception in wars (not bad) and they were discussing how the Germans were being tricked into thinking the invasion would happen everywhere except in Normandy and how this was crucial, because if D day was postponed or invasion unsuccessful, the Germans were already developing V1 and V2 and who knows what may have happened. As if blissfully unaware that at the same time Wermacht’s back was being broken by the Red Army.

 

It’s amazing how many people don’t realize Normandy was all about getting in on the action before the Soviets take all of Europe, not just eastern and central. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki are probably linked to the Red Army’s blitzkrieg in Manchuria. And yet British and especially American history program after history program presents the WWII as Hitler coming to power, rallies, Holocaust, D Day, Germany surrenders. British ad the Blitz.  One was even called From Normandy to Berlin. What fucking Berlin?

[njackets]

Don't think enough is done for the people who served in it, they should be treated like Kings and Queens, we owe them everything!

[Lee909]

The history is written as is because immediately after the war the Soviet Union became the new enrmy

Your hardly going to give them the credit while the cold war is in progress.

 

Operation Mincemeat was pretty amazing. It was a ploy to make the Germans think the Allies were planning on invading southern Europe. The quick story is the British put a dead bloke in a Marines officers unifirm and handcuffed a briefcase with false info about invasions and love letters etc and dropped him of the coast of Spain. When he was found Franco thought he had a great present for the Nazi's and handed everything to them. It worked as the Germans moved men and equipment south to deal with a invasion

[Paulie Dangerously]

Nazi Supermen are our Superiors

[s(k)aturation]

I'm fascinated by the fact how few people in Britain, even among historians, realize or admit the WWII in Europe was won by the Red Army and not by cracking the Enigma or destroying some dry dock in France or even engaging some German second rate divisions on the Dutch border with Germany for a couple of months.

 

I'm not surprised at all.

A weak shite like Chamberlain is replaced by a rotund, cigar smoking brandy soak who appeals to the working classes sense of unattainable upper crust eccentricity... he makes a few flowery speeches from the safety of his underground drinks cabinet in Whitehall... while the bulk of the dirty work is done on the continent by the continent (except the French, whom he wants to save regardless, because of Champagne), he lucks out with Germany's fancifully grandiose plan to invade Britain by air, and the subsequent "so few for so many" magnificent men in their flying machines carry the day with relatively little collateral damage when you compare with the millions that died in the East on a convenient, 24/7, 6-year conveyor belt of human fodder.

Famous victory.

Well, at least sounded like it on BBC radio.

Bob's your uncle.

Winston's your winner.

[s(k)aturation]

... but the bloke that played a real blinder was indeed Uncle Joe Stalin.

 

Here's Churchill thinking he had secured... through inspired rhetoric, brilliantly camouflaged strategic deceit and unwittingly to his other stakeholders... a limitless human abbatoir in the Soviet Union to carry out his war effort.

 

Little did Churchill know of course, that Stalin gave much, much less of a fuck than him (which was zero) about how many Slavs bit the bullet.

Brilliant, our Joe was.  Brilliant.

[Lee909]

Think your bring overly harsh on him there. If Churchill hadn't got into power there is little doubt we would have either surrendered or made peace under horrible conditions. Lord Halifax wanted peace as did most of the aristocracy. The plan was to put Prince Edward on the throne in Germany as a vassal monarch and would likely have been oart of the terms of peace.

 

Churchills speaches kept moral high during some shitty times prior and after Dunkirk. He made some terrible decisions but some great ones too. He was the main vouce behind starting up the commando brigades. He also made some dangerous sea and air journeys during the war for major conferences with other leaders.

 

The Russians may have won the war with blood but without the US lend lease programme and the British Navy holding out at sea and keeping the Batics open they would have lost. The German mistake was going into the Soviet Union so relatively late in the year and instead of continuing to sweep through the country at speed and making the eastern oilfields the number one priority they got themselves pulled into sieges in Leningrad and Stalingrad because of the names of the cities. Had they left a token force there and just bombed and starved them out they would have got the needed supplies of oil and other vital war essentials.

 

The Russians suffered the most of the allies but nothing should be taken away from the British/Commonwealth and US forces. They all paid a high price to win the war in both the West and the East.

[s(k)aturation]

I am being overly harsh on him, yes.

I am a Slav and down our way, we have a version of events - as is always the case in the recounting of war - that is as harsh on Churchill as Churchillian versions are steeped in glory and rectitude.

Churchills view of the worth of Slavs was little better than Hitlers.  Stalin played into both their hands by having a penchant for sacrificing humanity that dwarfed the other two's.  

Big time.

Hitler was a beginner, compared with Uncle Joe.

3 megalomaniacs, pursuing 3 deeply personal agendas.

Churchill won, with the heavy lifting done by Stalin's rank and file, and Churchill knew full well and acceded to the Eastern Bloc, for all his "Iron Curtain" crap, being Stalin's reward.

Good on Churchill for "winning".

I like visiting Britain, so I won't begrudge what he achieved.

But tweren't noble, in the least.

As for Hitler, if he had a choice between the other two of whom to have a beer and schnapps chaser with, it would have been Churchill hands down.  

And vice versa.

The Germans and the English are kissing cousins.  

Have been since about 400AD, when Mussolini's forerunners finally folded.

[magicrat]

I'm fascinated by the fact how few people in Britain, even among historians, realize or admit the WWII in Europe was won by the Red Army and not by cracking the Enigma or destroying some dry dock in France or even engaging some German second rate divisions on the Dutch border with Germany for a couple of months.

 

I'm fascinated by the way some people wan't to belittle the hardships endured by our parents and grandparents during the war , Especially the dark days of the blitz when Britain was fighting Hitler alone . It was a miracle we held out and due in no small part to resilience of the people and the bravery of a bunch of kids in the RAF.  It was our resistance which allowed Roosevelt  the time to get America involved which subsequently made it possible for the Red Army to push Hitler back in the East. Had we fallen then so would Russia .  Your point is a bit silly really

[s(k)aturation]

No one is belittling the hardships endured by our parents and grandparents during the war.

War fucks up parents, grandparents and kids wherever it is. 

London, Coventry, Liverpool, Dresden, Leningrad, Singapore, Darwin, Hawaii, Beirut, Kampala, Basra, Damascus...

Political leaders are not our parents and our grandparents.  

And, the hardships suffered by Churchill, Hitler, Stalin and Roosevelt during the war - which were fucking nil compared with our parents and our grandparents, who were being used as pawns and fodder - belittle our forbears a lot more than any of our attempts today to give an honest, unsentimental opinion of history's "winners" and "losers", "heroes" and "villains".

[Lee909]

 

 

I am being overly harsh on him, yes.

I am a Slav and down our way, we have a version of events - as is always the case in the recounting of war - that is as harsh on Churchill as Churchillian versions are steeped in glory and rectitude.

Churchills view of the worth of Slavs was little better than Hitlers. Stalin played into both their hands by having a penchant for sacrificing humanity that dwarfed the other two's.

Big time.

Hitler was a beginner, compared with Uncle Joe.

3 megalomaniacs, pursuing 3 deeply personal agendas.

Churchill won, with the heavy lifting done by Stalin's rank and file, and Churchill knew full well and acceded to the Eastern Bloc, for all his "Iron Curtain" crap, being Stalin's reward.

Good on Churchill for "winning".

I like visiting Britain, so I won't begrudge what he achieved.

But tweren't noble, in the least.

As for Hitler, if he had a choice between the other two of whom to have a beer and schnapps chaser with, it would have been Churchill hands down.

And vice versa.

The Germans and the English are kissing cousins.

Have been since about 400AD, when Mussolini's forerunners finally folded.

Didnt realise you were a Slav.

His agreement with Stalin on how to split up Europe post war was disgraceful. I don't particularly like the man myself but he was exactly what was needed ag the time.

Every one of the major powers leaders was busy playing games during the war. The U.S was busy trying to break up the British Empire,so they could start there own (well behind closed doors power anyway). Stalin was a cunt of epic proportions trying to play off everyone against each other,Mao was another epic twat keeping his communist forces out of the fight with Japan as much as possible so they could take control later. The less said about the Japanese war council and leaders the better

[s(k)aturation]

Mao tops the genocide hit parade.

With apologies to Pol Pot, who per head of population, deserves a very special mention.

 

Mind you, Attila the Hun on horseback was pretty handy too, knocking over a million people 1500 years ago... and at such a tender age that made Alex of Macedon seem an octogenarian. 

[Lee909]

Dont forget Genghis in the list of all time loons.

Killed 2.25ml of the 2.5ml inhabitants of Iran,over 2ml in Hungary some suggest up to 40ml in China. On the bright side some scientists say he cleared 700tonnes of carbon for the atmosphere by forests regrowing in areas that were once populated. Not bad for a bunch of nomadic horse archerers

[s(k)aturation]

Dont forget Genghis in the list of all time loons.

Killed 2.25ml of the 2.5ml inhabitants of Iran,over 2ml in Hungary some suggest up to 40ml in China. On the bright side some scientists say he cleared 700tonnes of carbon for the atmosphere by forests regrowing in areas that were once populated. Not bad for a bunch of nomadic horse archerers

 

Stopping 45 million people from incessantly exhaling a carbon compound wouldn't have done Al Gore's cause célèbre any harm either.

 

A thoughtful and tireless environmentalist, was our Ghengis.

[SasaS]

I'm fascinated by the way some people wan't to belittle the hardships endured by our parents and grandparents during the war , Especially the dark days of the blitz when Britain was fighting Hitler alone . It was a miracle we held out and due in no small part to resilience of the people and the bravery of a bunch of kids in the RAF.  It was our resistance which allowed Roosevelt  the time to get America involved which subsequently made it possible for the Red Army to push Hitler back in the East. Had we fallen then so would Russia .  Your point is a bit silly really

 

Maybe.

 

Most countries tend to put themselves at the center of events which then leads people to believe in things like the point you made. Britain’s involvement in WWII was not as important as most British people believe. Britain was fairly quickly and successfully chased out of Europe, subjected to an extensive bombing campaign with a view of isolating and pacifying it and that’s it. In the meantime, it was comprehensively defeated in Asia, often by numerically inferior Japanese forces like in Singapore. When the US realized the Soviets are defeating Nazi Germany, it used Britain as the launching pad for the invasion.  The rest is national myths, different from country to country. I bet the French believe their resistance movement played an important role, Slovaks that their uprising was crucial and so on.

 

Most people in Britain don’t know anything about the WWII in other countries (they are certainly not alone in this) and I don’t see why would informing them that it was the Red Army which defeated Germany be belittling the hardships endured by the war generation.

[Rico1304]

This is why I love the GF.

[s(k)aturation]

I don’t see why would informing them that it was the Red Army which defeated Germany be belittling the hardships endured by the war generation.

 

It doesn't in the slightest.

And it is indeed the inflated opinion of any one entity/people/movement's achievements, in this instance Britain, that infers the belittlement.

Looking at wars through any type of romantic lens is useful, and indeed powerful, at a family gathering or May Day parade perhaps, but ultimately the hyperbole is pricked, packed-up and put away, to be dusted off ceremonially another time. 

 

If anything, this should bring into sharper perspective the futile and trivial way that people are used as flesh and blood currency. The sober truth, rather than the bluster, actually heightens the tragedy and respect for those that suffered.

 

 

[Rico1304]

It'd been better if we'd lost then we could have shown that Tory cunt Churchill what for.

(Anyone who insists on downing a bottle of champagne a day and at the same time is a master brick layer is OK by me).