Cameron: "Cuts will change our way of life"

[Section_31]

I've been reading about the Golden Dawn movement in Time Magazine.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

For anyone wanting some background to the situation in Greece, Greg Palast is your man.

 

http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=33e4ec877eed6a43863a4a92e&id=b2c4368622&e=8a9954eb2c

 

Who'd have thought deliberate actions of the financial sector would be behind mass suffering on the ground?

Interesting and scary at the same time. Cheers for sharing that Stu.

[Red_or_Dead]

Really good early on but tailed off a bit at the end.  Are you Duncan Jenkins?

If he is then NV is Jen Chang.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

How droll. 

 

[dennis tooth]

It's fair to say my reading of certain situations differs from many.

 

Take the railways, for instance. My thinking goes like this:

 

1) Railways are expensive to maintain

2) Someone has to pay for them

3) It's not unreasonable for those who use rail to bear most of the cost, especially as they tend towards the better off in society

 

That doesn't mean I'm happy about the cost of a rail ticket. I'm not happy about having to spend the best part of 20 quid to visit her parents in Preston, and I'm not happy about having to spend 12 quid if I want to go to Manchester for the day. But what's the alternative?

 

 

You say 'whats the alternative' in reference to a privatisation, which, you claim is about choice?

Its always the ones most in favour of free market 'capitalism' who least understand it. You dont.

 

So for example, you are in favour of privatisations in the NHS, but not for railways. There is an alternative you cant consider, because you are blind to it due to the way of thinking you have been taught to employ, that is, that if private companies want to start their own railways, instead of state subsidy, then there is nothing stopping them building a railway of their own to compete with what should be a public entity.

Your choice is reduced if you cant choose a mode of public transport that used to exist which was a national rail service.

You claim it would cost a lot to nationalise the railways, when in fact it would cost, nothing at all, in fact there would be an immediate boost to public coffers due to them owning a shitload more shit made of stuff like iron, a whole book of daily customers, etc, etc.

Furthermore, a national railway that doesnt need to increase prices to make profits for shareholders and merely reinvests its money, saves you money in your pocket, which you can then spend in a local shop, more money freed up for the economy and tax takings instead of offshore shareholder accounts in belize. Taking extra money from workers who work for business entities you beleive so much in, reducing choice.

The nation needs its railways, the railways must run, so, even though we built the thing with the instrument of the state, thats not enough, we must also subsidise its maintainance we cant afford not to.

When you say the railways are expensive to maintain, yes the taxpayer pays for that, its subsidised, the fare you pay has little to do with it. Thats Belize bank money. (E.g The top five recipients alone received almost £3bn in taxpayer support between 2007 and 2011. This allowed them to make operating profits of £504m - over 90 per cent (£466m) of which was paid to shareholders.)

Our whole empire ran on a nationalised railway, with a free market capitalist model it never even gets built. You know where free market capitalism exists, in fucking Somalia, maybe Yemen, thats about it. Its closest forms are in 3rd world countries. Well in actual fact, fmc, like actual capitalism, doesnt exist, never has, its a myth as no society would last longer than a week under fmc.

 

Secondly, in accordance and related to similar farcical claims you have put forth on here, in a similar way, private healthcare has been available for the whole duration of the NHS and pre NHS, in some ways it has existed since the dawn of man in principle, you are too thick and dont understand what you are actually referring to, in the healthbill and what has been implemented by your own party is nothing to do with free market economics at all but is just state subsidy of corporate private healthcare providers.

If private healthcare provision worked so well, under free market condition, it would have already superceded the NHS and wouldnt need state subsidy to do it. It already existed so would not need anymore modification, if it worked so well people would be queuing up to get their treatment there and private insurance would be massive, rather than the local A and E.

What your party has done has not 'opened up the NHS to competition' at all, it has always been in competiton as Ive outlined clearly.

It has, however, opened the non competitors or also rans, to the NHS, which won the competition a long time ago.

The 'choice', the 'competition', has always been there you dog fucking dummy, what you actually are supporting here is state subsidies, state service procurements which go massively against all the things you purport to hold dear, every day since you've been on here.

 

Class dismissed.

[General Dryness]

Thought this was quite amusing.

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

There's got to be a better way for a country to be run than this party system. We vote for a dictator every 4 years who then continue to do what the fuck they like, they do untold damage make fucking insane decision after insane decision. They are dismantling and selling off this country bit by bit soon if not already we willl permanently be on our knees to huge corporations and fuck all we can do about it. The Tory's are the worst they are destroying the country for their own benefit and we just have no choice but too watch until we are allowed to vote in a couple of years. Today's technology should make democracy even more pure, we should vote on every huge decision and the politicians and medias job should be to educate and convince why we should vote for one thing over another. Most don't want the Royal Mail sold but it will be because the cons mates will make a fortune and we can do fuck all about it, its a short window of power so they are raping it for all they can. They should be held accountable after every tenure and jailed if they have profited through their own decisions at the expense of the majority. Cunts.

[dennis tooth]

Its called dicatatorship.

 

That we get to pick what dicatator every five years is neither here nor there. In a democracy, the public participates.

 

Who voted for the privatisation of the NHS? The corporate sector thats who.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I'm against the privatisation of public services, but I've gone against my morals and had a little plunge on these Royal Mail shares. Experts predicting up to a 30 to 40% surge in value when they start trading on the stock market next week. Expected to go up from the top quoted sale price of 330p a share to anywhere between 408p to 450p a share. 

Potentially a nice, quick profit to be made there if you buy them and sell them on quickly. May as well make the most of a bad situation? 

[Rico1304]

I'm against the privatisation of public services, but I've gone against my morals and had a little plunge on these Royal Mail shares. Experts predicting up to a 30 to 40% surge in value when they start trading on the stock market next week. Expected to go up from the top quoted sale price of 330p a share to anywhere between 408p to 450p a share. 

Potentially a nice, quick profit to be made there if you buy them and sell them on quickly. May as well make the most of a bad situation?

 

At least you've got the guts to say it!

[lifetime fan]

Why are we giving away public services drastically under market value, up to a billion by some calculations?

 

Again?

[littletedwest]

as Arthur Daley said of thatchers privatisations "you have to admire someone who sells you something you already own"

 

I don't admire by the way and one got the impression neither did the writers of minder.

[RedRazor]

I'm against the privatisation of public services, but I've gone against my morals and had a little plunge on these Royal Mail shares. Experts predicting up to a 30 to 40% surge in value when they start trading on the stock market next week. Expected to go up from the top quoted sale price of 330p a share to anywhere between 408p to 450p a share. 

 

Potentially a nice, quick profit to be made there if you buy them and sell them on quickly. May as well make the most of a bad situation? 

I wouldn't hold on to them because I can imagine that the shit will (Royally?) hit the fan not long after flotation. Whoever buys it wll start to strip down the those aspects of it they can't make profitable - namely letters delivered door-to-door. The unions will go ape and there will be significant unrest.  IMO they will focus on the logistics side of the business and build that.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

At least you've got the guts to say it!

 

Yes, definitely. 

 

It pains me to say it, but I can't do anything about the privatisation, if I can get a few hundred quid for a very short term investment, why the hell not. Got my eye on a nice new tele, like.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I wouldn't hold on to them because I can imagine that the shit will (Royally?) hit the fan not long after flotation. Whoever buys it wll start to strip down the those aspects of it they can't make profitable - namely letters delivered door-to-door. The unions will go ape and there will be significant unrest.  IMO they will focus on the logistics side of the business and build that.

Apparently, the dividend it pays is quite competitive. But, I'm not really up on all this trading malarkey and was just drawn in by the idea of a quick profit, unfortunately. The way it's panning out, it looks like the first few days of this will make a lot of rich people even richer and I've got a bit of money in the bank, so thought I'd have a piece of the pie. 

 

I fully intend to sell them (if I get any anyway, the demand is quite high, I believe) within a day or two of them trading on the stock market. 

[dennis tooth]

Why are we giving away public services drastically under market value, up to a billion by some calculations?

 

Again?

Simplest answer:

 

The public sector must prop up and subsidise the private sector or else it will completely collapse, its totally unsustainable by itself. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I'm against the privatisation of public services, but I've gone against my morals and had a little plunge on these Royal Mail shares. Experts predicting up to a 30 to 40% surge in value when they start trading on the stock market next week. Expected to go up from the top quoted sale price of 330p a share to anywhere between 408p to 450p a share.

 

Potentially a nice, quick profit to be made there if you buy them and sell them on quickly. May as well make the most of a bad situation?

They are boss these "experts" arent they?

 

You know with all their predictions of the bamking crisis etc.

 

I wouldn't trust the self serving bastards one little bit.

 

This is going to end in tears for the hard working Royal Mail man first then the share holder lower down the scale like yourself.

 

I hope it works out for you fella if you are doing it short term.

[dennis tooth]

Whats not really understood is its supposed to be run by the state, at a financial loss, because it takes the hit so you and small business and economy overall doesnt have to. You cant put a price on that.

We've seen it make a profit more recently, everyone patting Crozier on the back. 

 

Whats missed is, ask anyone, the service. the actual service has got shitter, theyve reduced the frequency of mail and also the wages of the staff and working conditions have also worsened, this is sceintifically what happens when you try to run it for profit. Who has profited? A few at the top.

 

And now also those who as above already have a bit of money, can make more. Or so it would appear to the man above in his perception but hes not going to factor in the cost in the long term due to the privatisation which will cost him infinitely more over his lifetime, while he waits for his letters and sorts through his junkmail, time is money, also the cost to the economy of postal workers reduced wages which would go back in the economy versus offshore profits which do not, but no one really counts these things cos its not as easy as looking at your basic transaction of selling shares. 

Only reason it was made to make a profit was to prepare for a sale and privatisation of it.

Well, we continue down this path, we can hope to emulate the great USA mail model of shit service, really shit service for anyone who has used it, what takes a few days here takes a month there and high cost, low worker wages and shit working conditions.

 

But a few can cream off, the top, any excess going to a few more like the aforementioned above who can squeeze a little extra cash out of it, not understanding that its like a small wage rise that looks good on the surface but the cost of living going up by twice your wage rise meaning your actually losing out, even with that 'bonus' you think you made.

 

Oh it will end in tears Skido, tears of joy for a very, very minute minority and real tears for the rest of us.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Skido. Such affection dennis.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Whats not really understood is its supposed to be run by the state, at a financial loss, because it takes the hit so you and small business and economy overall doesnt have to. You cant put a price on that.

We've seen it make a profit more recently, everyone patting Crozier on the back. 

 

Whats missed is, ask anyone, the service. the actual service has got shitter, theyve reduced the frequency of mail and also the wages of the staff and working conditions have also worsened, this is sceintifically what happens when you try to run it for profit. Who has profited? A few at the top.

 

And now also those who as above already have a bit of money, can make more. Or so it would appear to the man above in his perception but hes not going to factor in the cost in the long term due to the privatisation which will cost him infinitely more over his lifetime, while he waits for his letters and sorts through his junkmail, time is money, also the cost to the economy of postal workers reduced wages which would go back in the economy versus offshore profits which do not, but no one really counts these things cos its not as easy as looking at your basic transaction of selling shares. 

Only reason it was made to make a profit was to prepare for a sale and privatisation of it.

Well, we continue down this path, we can hope to emulate the great USA mail model of shit service, really shit service for anyone who has used it, what takes a few days here takes a month there and high cost, low worker wages and shit working conditions.

 

But a few can cream off, the top, any excess going to a few more like the aforementioned above who can squeeze a little extra cash out of it, not understanding that its like a small wage rise that looks good on the surface but the cost of living going up by twice your wage rise meaning your actually losing out, even with that 'bonus' you think you made.

 

Oh it will end in tears Skido, tears of joy for a very, very minute minority and real tears for the rest of us.

Just as long as these real tears look good on my new  3D tele, I'm not overly fussed. To be blunt. 

[dennis tooth]

Just as long as these real tears look good on my new  3D tele, I'm not overly fussed. To be blunt. 

 

Its may to arrive a month late and rather bashed up with a high delivery charge but hopefully not, hopefully the feral wayward children of overworked and underpaid postal workers dont put fireworks through your letterbox setting fire to the mounds of junkmail and melting you and your family and your 3-d telly. After all, its money youve earned off the backs of 100 years or so of the public postal service and you should be able to relax and watch the postal strikers getting torn apart on the 6 oclock news in the comfort of your own home.

 

Enjoy counting the cost for missing mail and extortianate delivery costs for the next 60 years.

[Rico1304]

Genuine question, do any of you know people who work for a Royal Mail?

 

If so, do you think they are the oppressed workforce they are portrayed to be?

[dennis tooth]

Yes, I know about 50 people who work for royal mail and I know about ten/fifteen people who used to work there.

I did my work experience there. My mother worked there, my stepfather, who killed himself last february worked there since he was 16 until his death at 49, he had received lifetime service awards etc. I wonder how many people will come out of school at 16 and work there until 49, would have been until his retirement but there you go. He would tell me how where he worked in vehicle services the staff went from what you might call a workforce to a shell in 5 years. From like 35 workers to like 10, with the vehicles to have work done on them piling up more and more even though they are doing more work than ever. I could go on and on with examples but they arent required a cursory look at the state of royal mail and indeed every privatised entity ever, will show you where its at.

Makes a profit though so the actual service and the working conditions dont count do they? The point is the cheif exec or whoever at the top and them get paid more and more isnt it? Cos of course, we need to privatise everything cos we need more Abramovich's in the world.

 

I said in recent years, since they've been aiming and then have made a profit, yes the conditions have gotten worse, pensions have fell on their arse, short term contracts have increased massively, worker insecurity is rife, workloads have increased, staff numbers have dropped, wages have been dropped with new terms and conditions.

I didnt describe them as an oppressed workforce, in relative terms they arent, thats because they werent in the private sector, they are not long turning a profit and only just have been or are being privatised, you will see where its at in another 5, the trend will be massively increased.

[Rico1304]

I used to work near a large sorting office in Manchester but that was ten years ago so before lots of the changes you talk about. The blokes I used to know enjoyed it as a rule, weird hours though which meant as we were on our dinner hour in the pub they'd have finished hours before and all be pissed. It was pretty heavily unionised and they were forever out on unofficial strikes, lots of times they'd admit it was just to flex their muscles.

[dennis tooth]

Thats what working life is supposed to be like but sadly those days are gone. Its odd that you prefer the working yourself to death model.

Strangely the latter model has made the actual service worse, in real terms the price of a stamp has increased, with additonal higher costing price tiers introduced, such as 'special delivery', which legally has no guarantee over normal mail, extra mail weight categories added in, sunday postbox collections  have gone, 2nd delivery was abolished 2004, they wanted to abolish 2nd class post stamps as well, not sure if that went through but the trend is clear. As long as it brings the cash 'profit' near.

 

Who profits? Not the worker, not the customer.