Baffling Benitez

[Bogman]

tell you what I found interesting last night. It was teh first time i'd heard people shouting down people singin Rafa's song.

 

There was some real venom.

 

Maybe those same people ought to try getting behind the team at the same time.

Atmosphere again was shocking.

It's a two way street, the fans, especially now, need to get behind the team, not sit on their hands waiting for something to happen.

[silverlining]

A good debate is where you take on board my points about pressure and possession and then re-present your position to take that perspective into account. Just repeating the same thing continuously is not debate.

 

*Ironymeter explodes into a million pieces*

[Guest LFD]

Stick to criticising him for things he has actually done, not winning tactical changes.

 

No. I think I have to be even in my praise and criticisim.

 

If Benitez makes a good decision, yet we lose the game - I will not criticise him for that decision.

 

Likewise if he makes a poor decision and we win the game - I will criticise the decision, if I disgree with it, even though we win.

 

I thought it was a poor decision and a poor choice of words from Benitez. How dare Gerrard show passion in a Derby!

 

I judge decisions not whether we win or lose the game, but whether I agree with the reasoning. Sure if we win, then great and it doesn't matter - but I still question his method.

[Guest LFD]

A good debate is where you take on board my points about pressure and possession and then re-present your position to take that perspective into account. Just repeating the same thing continuously is not debate.

 

Hold on.

 

I said you were right about Kuyt and that maybe it wasn't baffling, I just disgreed that he should be first choice.

 

I don't see you taking any of my points on board.

 

Or maybe you are being ironic?

[Kennys_spell]

I'm not saying he should have broken up the Gerrard / Torres partnership. I am saying he made his decision, he had other options. He is accountable for the decisions he makes - 'he lives by the sword, he dies by the sword'.

 

He chose to get Johnson and Aquilani.... he said he was happy with the squad and so he should be after spending 220 million on players and having five years at the club.

 

We're not six because of our squad and if we are, that is Benitez's fault. I think we are sixth because we can't defend set plays, we can score from set plays, we are picking a poor centre midfield combination in Mascherano and Lucas, we only have one top striker in the squad.

 

Injuries and poor form are obviously two other factors Benitez can't control. However he isn't helping himself.

 

Actually - that's EXACTLY what you are saying, how else are you going to play Gerrard in the Alonso role if you're not going to split up the Partnership that is working so very very well? As good as Gerrard is, he can't play in two positions at the same time.

 

We are sixth because of our squad - thats EXACTLY why we're sixth, becuase the money Benitez has had has allowed him to put together a very very very good first eleven without being able to pay the wages that would convince someone who could easily slot into one of these positions without affecting the quality of the squad to sit on the bench. When you have players like Torres, Gerrard, Johnosn, Agger, Aurelio etc all injured at the same time then that will affect the quality.

 

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[Bob]

tell you what I found interesting last night. It was teh first time i'd heard people shouting down people singin Rafa's song.

 

There was some real venom.

 

I didnt hear anyone shouting it down around by me, but there was definately a lot more angst towards him in terms of vocal abuse. I heard 5 or 6 different remarks from different people that were all far more angray than i have heard before.

 

"Fucking fat spanish prick" was one i heard over and over from behind me.

"The prick got lucky tonight" was another i heard on the way out.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Says who? What have you won? :biggrin:

 

Lost me there unless you're taking the piss for whatever reason.

[Guest LFD]

Actually - that's EXACTLY what you are saying, how else are you going to play Gerrard in the Alonso role if you're not going to split up the Partnership that is working so very very well? As good as Gerrard is, he can't play in two positions at the same time.

 

We are sixth because of our squad - thats EXACTLY why we're sixth, becuase the money Benitez has had has allowed him to put together a very very very good first eleven without being able to pay the wages that would convince someone who could easily slot into one of these positions without affecting the quality of the squad to sit on the bench. When you have players like Torres, Gerrard, Johnosn, Agger, Aurelio etc all injured at the same time then that will affect the quality.

 

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Let me clarify, as I think you are getting confused.

 

He had options - Alonso and Arbeloa both left and he had around 35 - 40 million to spend. He chose to bring in Johnson and Aquilani, however he didn't have to do this... I am saying he could have chosen to play Gerrard in centre midfield for example and buy a partner for Torres. I'm not say he SHOULD have done that, I am saying he COULD have done that.

 

He chose his way and he's accountable for that decision.

 

Well if we are sixth because of our squad (which I disagree with) - then Benitez is to blame as he's built the squad, this is his team and squad. He's spent 220 million on players and had five years.

 

I personally think he's bought well and thing the squad is fine (althoug it can be improved). I think his decision making is costing us, just as much as the squad.

 

He's meant to bne a great coach... why isn't he sorting out the set plays?

[piscinin]

Hold on.

 

I said you were right about Kuyt and that maybe it wasn't baffling, I just disgreed that he should be first choice.

 

I don't see you taking any of my points on board.

 

Or maybe you are being ironic?

 

No I was talking about Gerrard and the sub. I stopped reading after that bit as it was seemed you were were in broadcast only mode.

[Paulie Dangerously]

I missed the game last night due to illness but watched on a stream with shitty sound. Was the atmosphere as venomous as the previous few posts indicate? I remember in Houllier's last season hearing "Allez allez, allez allez, Fuck off Houllier" but as of yet I haven't heard any serious derision of Benitez in the stadium itself

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I missed the game last night due to illness but watched on a stream with shitty sound. Was the atmosphere as venomous as the previous few posts indicate? I remember in Houllier's last season hearing "Allez allez, allez allez, Fuck off Houllier" but as of yet I haven't heard any serious derision of Benitez in the stadium itself

 

The atmosphere wasn't great. Mind you i was using a stream with Portuguese commentary and those commentators sue do like to get excited and loud at every opportunity.

[Kennys_spell]

Let me clarify, as I think you are getting confused.

 

He had options - Alonso and Arbeloa both left and he had around 35 - 40 million to spend. He chose to bring in Johnson and Aquilani, however he didn't have to do this... I am saying he could have chosen to play Gerrard in centre midfield for example and buy a partner for Torres. I'm not say he SHOULD have done that, I am saying he COULD have done that.

 

He chose his way and he's accountable for that decision.

 

Well if we are sixth because of our squad (which I disagree with) - then Benitez is to blame as he's built the squad, this is his team and squad. He's spent 220 million on players and had five years.

 

I personally think he's bought well and thing the squad is fine (althoug it can be improved). I think his decision making is costing us, just as much as the squad.

 

He's meant to bne a great coach... why isn't he sorting out the set plays?

 

None of that is debate - it's simply repeating your stance in the hope that it will eventually make sense. Believe me, it won't.

 

Do you think he should have broken up the Gerrard/Torres partnership?

Do you think he should have bought Johnson?

Do you think he should have bought Aquilanni?

Do you think the lack of funds has prevented him from buying better standard "squad" players?

 

 

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[ngogswilly]

I find him baffling at times, but what really gets me annoyed is the fact that you're left thinking

"How does he not see what everyone else sees"

And after 5 years i've come to the conclusion that Rafas just too damn stubborn. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks and he wants to be proven right all the time.

[Guest LFD]

None of that is debate - it's simply repeating your stance in the hope that it will eventually make sense. Believe me, it won't.

 

Do you think he should have broken up the Gerrard/Torres partnership?

Do you think he should have bought Johnson?

Do you think he should have bought Aquilanni?

Do you think the lack of funds has prevented him from buying better standard "squad" players?

 

 

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Sorry, I repeated it, because I didn't think you understood what I was saying. My point isn't what I would do, Rafa has made his decision and he has to be judged on that.

 

At the time, I wanted to put Gerrard back into centre midfield and buy a partner for Torres. I know it didn't work with Keane, however that doesn't mean another player couldn't play with Torres.

 

I think Johnson has been great and I have always liked him. I would have bought Johnson and a partner for Torres. I think the squad needed another attacking threat, plus I couldn't think of too many players who would replace Alonso and while we already had Gerrard it made sense to put him back into centre midfield and buy a 'Diego type' player to play behind Torres.

Edited December 17, 2009 by LFD

[piscinin]

I find him baffling at times, but what really gets me annoyed is the fact that you're left thinking

"How does he not see what everyone else sees"

And after 5 years i've come to the conclusion that Rafas just too damn stubborn. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks and he wants to be proven right all the time.

 

In the Italian Job by Vialli he talks about the fact that there are 2 kinds of football. "Spoken Football" and "real football". Spoken football is what the fans think football is based on 0 experience of it in the real world and through the very limited and biased lens of the media. Real football is entirely different apparently and so it's no surprise to me that what you see of this "spoken football" doesn't jive with his perception of "real football".

[zigackly]

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I had to take you off ignore temporarily after LFD quoted you, just to neg you for your fake signature.

[Guest LFD]

I find him baffling at times, but what really gets me annoyed is the fact that you're left thinking

"How does he not see what everyone else sees"

And after 5 years i've come to the conclusion that Rafas just too damn stubborn. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks and he wants to be proven right all the time.

 

Isn't that a poor sign of management though?

 

We know our club as well as anyone, including Benitez. We know the league well, we are fanatical and the media use stats to back up their criticisim. Sure Andy Gray, Redknapp etc get on our nerves, how they criticise us... but it's hard to argue with them, as we haven't won the league for 18+ years, so they must have been saying something right - we do have a problem at set plays, Benitez did make too many changes when he first arrived at the club, we don't look like scoring at set plays, he is predictable at making subs, Mascherano / Lucas don't give us enough threat on the ball and we lack another striker in the squad.

 

Rafa should start listening or he'll be out of a job sooner rather than later.

[Kennys_spell]

Sorry, I repeated it, because I didn't think you understood what I was saying. My point isn't what I would do, Rafa has made his decision and he has to be judged on that.

 

At the time, I wanted to put Gerrard back into centre midfield and buy a partner for Torres. I know it didn't work with Keane, however that doesn't mean another player couldn't play with Torres.

 

I think Johnson has been great and I have always liked him. I would have bought Johnson and a partner for Torres. I think the squad needed another attacking threat, plus I couldn't think of too many players who would replace Alonso and while we already had Gerrard it made sense to put him back into centre midfield and buy a Diego type player.

 

The whole thread is NOT about the decision you would make or the decisions that Benitez made - it's about you not understanding those decisioins (being baffled). In actuall fact when we look at the nub of it all what you are saying is you're baffled because he didn't make the decisions you think you would make.

 

 

To recap - You WOULD have broken up the Gerrard/Torres partnership and bought another attacker that MAY or MAY NOT have worked. I have to say, I prefer the Benitez decision in that one.

 

You would have Bought Johnson as Benitez did so you're NOT baffled by that. The Purchase of Johnson therefore leaves us with £20 Mill to replace Gerrard alongside Torres with - who would we have bought for that amount that wouldn't disrupt the balance/quality/output of the team? Again, I prefer the Benitez decision in that one.

 

Given that we got £40 Mill for the sales and spent £40 Mill on purchases - how do you imagine Benitez could have strengthened the squad without cash from the Yanks? So really - he had no choice but to be happy with his squad did he?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[ngogswilly]

In the Italian Job by Vialli he talks about the fact that there are 2 kinds of football. "Spoken Football" and "real football". Spoken football is what the fans think football is based on 0 experience of it in the real world and through the very limited and biased lens of the media. Real football is entirely different apparently and so it's no surprise to me that what you see of this "spoken football" doesn't jive with his perception of "real football".

 

Yeah no doubt its easy for alot of us to sit and talk. As you say most of us have never played at a high level never mind any level. But you have to admit, there have been times, when fans and ex-pros alike have been just utterly baffled by something Rafas done.

[Kennys_spell]

Isn't that a poor sign of management though?

 

We know our club as well as anyone, including Benitez. We know the league well, we are fanatical and the media use stats to back up their criticisim. Sure Andy Gray, Redknapp etc get on our nerves, how they criticise us... but it's hard to argue with them, as we haven't won the league for 18+ years, so they must have been saying something right - we do have a problem at set plays, Benitez did make too many changes when he first arrived at the club, we don't look like scoring at set plays, he is predictable at making subs, Mascherano / Lucas don't give us enough threat on the ball and we lack another striker in the squad.

 

Rafa should start listening or he'll be out of a job sooner rather than later.

 

Who did Ferguson listen to during his first seven years without a title? Did he simply cave in to everyone (Including the fans who held up banners saying "Thanks a Lot Fergy but it's time to go") who was criticising him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[ngogswilly]

Isn't that a poor sign of management though?

 

Rafa should start listening or he'll be out of a job sooner rather than later.

 

I want Rafa to succeed. I've found myself defending him in arguments even when i've thought in my head that im actually wrong.

But like you say, and this has been my opinion for a while, his stubborn streak will end up costing him his job.

I hope that doesn't happen though. I just hope we get better!

[Guest LFD]

In the Italian Job by Vialli he talks about the fact that there are 2 kinds of football. "Spoken Football" and "real football". Spoken football is what the fans think football is based on 0 experience of it in the real world and through the very limited and biased lens of the media. Real football is entirely different apparently and so it's no surprise to me that what you see of this "spoken football" doesn't jive with his perception of "real football".

 

Yes because Vialli has done well in management.

 

Fans are usually right. Were we wrong about Houiller when we wanted him out? Were we wrong about Souness?

 

Sure there are clearly things we don't know about, such as the character of players off the pitch or whether they are carrying knocks or are poor in training... however on the pitch, we are as good a judge as anyone.

 

The whole thread is NOT about the decision you would make or the decisions that Benitez made - it's about you not understanding those decisioins (being baffled). In actuall fact when we look at the nub of it all what you are saying is you're baffled because he didn't make the decisions you think you would make.

 

 

To recap - You WOULD have broken up the Gerrard/Torres partnership and bought another attacker that MAY or MAY NOT have worked. I have to say, I prefer the Benitez decision in that one.

 

You would have Bought Johnson as Benitez did so you're NOT baffled by that. The Purchase of Johnson therefore leaves us with £20 Mill to replace Gerrard alongside Torres with - who would we have bought for that amount that wouldn't disrupt the balance/quality/output of the team? Again, I prefer the Benitez decision in that one.

 

Given that we got £40 Mill for the sales and spent £40 Mill on purchases - how do you imagine Benitez could have strengthened the squad without cash from the Yanks? So really - he had no choice but to be happy with his squad did he?

 

I would have bought a striker, who could play with Torres and use Gerrard in centre midfield sometimes. If one striker was injured, then Gerrard could partner Torres or the other striker... with Lucas (or another midfielder, depending on budget - playing in centre midfield) - this way we'd have more threat at home, breaking down the weaker teams, yet also more options and depth in the squad... as if Torres gets injured currently, we look thin upfront, despite how well Ngog is doing.

 

I am happy with Torres, not bafflied by that decision. I am not baffled by the signing of Aquilani, I am just baffled at how Benitez is trying to get him fit (or how he isn't trying).

 

He should be happy with his squad, given he's spend 220 million on players andhad five years.

[Torvald Utne]

I've seen this thread before, if you're going to create threads incessantly at least have the decency to create new ones.

[Kennys_spell]

Yes because Vialli has done well in management.

 

Fans are usually right. Were we wrong about Houiller when we wanted him out? Were we wrong about Souness?

 

Sure there are clearly things we don't know about, such as the character of players off the pitch or whether they are carrying knocks or are poor in training... however on the pitch, we are as good a judge as anyone.

 

 

 

I would have bought a striker, who could play with Torres and use Gerrard in centre midfield sometimes. If one striker was injured, then Gerrard could partner Torres or the other striker... with Lucas (or another midfielder, depending on budget - playing in centre midfield) - this way we'd have more threat at home, breaking down the weaker teams, yet also more options and depth in the squad... as if Torres gets injured currently, we look thin upfront, despite how well Ngog is doing.

 

I am happy with Torres, not bafflied by that decision. I am not baffled by the signing of Aquilani, I am just baffled at how Benitez is trying to get him fit (or how he isn't trying).

 

He should be happy with his squad, given he's spend 220 million on players andhad five years.

 

Thats the second time you've ignored questions asked and simply taken a dogmatic approach to your response - indeed it could be seen as obtuse.

 

I'll debate with you all day long, I won't engage in some sort of "Monty python - half hour argument" with you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest LFD]

Who did Ferguson listen to during his first seven years without a title? Did he simply cave in to everyone (Including the fans who held up banners saying "Thanks a Lot Fergy but it's time to go") who was criticising him?

 

 

I am relatively young and can't remember that far back... so I don't know to be honest.

 

There is a difference between being stubborn and believing in your methods. Ferguson is a strong character, as is Benitez... they back their decisions.

 

However Benitez is making lots of poor decisions in my opinion and if he doesn't start considering changing his approach or ensuring that we do defend set plays better, for example... he won't be in the job, in my opinion.

 

Yes - he has to be a strong character. But he ultimately needs to make the right decisions.