2 things about Rafa that have really pissed me off since Boro

[Whelan]

Surely the only instance when a deal is too far down the line is when the contract is actually signed?

 

We pulled out of the Bowyer deal fairly easily as well.

[Barrington Womble]

Classy.

 

I have never pretended to be classy. In fact I'm an utter cunt and quite happy to admit it.

[Barrington Womble]

Surely the only instance when a deal is too far down the line is when the contract is actually signed?

 

We pulled out of the Bowyer deal fairly easily as well.

 

It was a pre-contract Bosman.

[Whelan]

It was a pre-contract Bosman.

 

Bowyer had a nine million pound fee!! definately!!!

knew you weren't Johnny Ball

[redrosetints]

What has? I don't take anything Benitez says at face value. Do you?

 

No, but you'll take what Ferguson said, 10 years ago at face value ? I wouldn't take a thing he (Fergie) said at face value, he is the master of the smoke screens and bluffing.

[Barrington Womble]

Bowyer had a nine million pound fee!! definately!!!

knew you weren't Johnny Ball

 

I might be Johnny Ball. I could just be giving the illusion I'm not in case my cover is blown.

[Dicko]

My Auntie used to go out with Johnny Ball.

[Kevin D]

Going back to your second point for a second, I actually find myself quite confused. Is he delibrately skewing the past because he knows the results back what he is saying? Has he just genuinely forgot?

 

Then there's the possibility that I really don't like: The small possibility that Rafa actually thought we were playing well. That doing fuck all for 2/3 of the match isn't actually a problem but something he actively encourages,that he thought the standard football was anywhere near approaching acceptable and he see's nothing wrong with our complete lack of idea's in the final 3rd.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it , I may well be with the subtraction of context, but the idea that the players weren't playing below themselves in the first half of the season but rather to the manager's instructions frightens me. Is this the way he always envisaged us playing?

[aws]

I have never pretended to be classy. In fact I'm an utter cunt and quite happy to admit it.

 

I've read Barry's posts for years and can confirm this.

[Barrington Womble]

If you are Johnny Ball your daughter's a turncoat cow.

 

 

she is a bitch I agree. She takes after her Ma :whistle:

[Barrington Womble]

Going back to your second point for a second, I actually find myself quite confused. Is he delibrately skewing the past because he knows the results back what he is saying? Has he just genuinely forgot?

 

Then there's the possibility that I really don't like: The small possibility that Rafa actually thought we were playing well. That doing fuck all for 2/3 of the match isn't actually a problem but something he actively encourages,that he thought the standard football was anywhere near approaching acceptable and he see's nothing wrong with our complete lack of idea's in the final 3rd.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it , I may well be with the subtraction of context, but the idea that the players weren't playing below themselves in the first half of the season but rather to the manager's instructions frightens me. Is this the way he always envisaged us playing?

 

I just thought he meant it was all going well and he was surprised when results didn't come as easy as they did earlier in the campaign. which as I said in the 1st post is shocking - how he could not see that comign was just incredible, it was obvious we couldn't keep getting away with it.

 

queue speedyg saying i'm reading between the lines how can i possibly know what rafa meant.

[Kevin D]

I just thought he meant it was all going well and he was surprised when results didn't come as easy as they did earlier in the campaign. which as I said in the 1st post is shocking - how he could not see that comign was just incredible, it was obvious we couldn't keep getting away with it.

 

queue speedyg saying i'm reading between the lines how can i possibly know what rafa meant.

 

I was asking , though, why didn't he see it coming? The reason you and I saw it is because we were absymal in the majority of games but a combination of sending-offs , attacking intent (for the last 15 minutes) and team spirit tended to see us through.

Rationally , I can only propose that the reason he didn't see it coming is because he actually thought we were playing well which like I was indicating previously means this is how he wants us to play. I mean it's that or his meaning has just been lost in translation which is always a possibility.

[Barrington Womble]

It was a normal transfer, £9m fee.

 

BBC SPORT | Football | Teams | Liverpool | Bowyer move collapses

 

 

I meant the Bosnich deal.

[Barrington Womble]

I think what Tony B wrote in the Echo (so I'm not using any of Rafa's quotes here) was that Rafa wanted Barry and Keane. But players we needed to sell first weren't looking like getting sold. So Rafa wanted the Keane deal put aside for the time being, concentrate on getting Barry instead. Parry said the Keane deal was too far down the line now to pull out so went ahead with it.

 

This isn't an argument about whether Barry or Keane were worth their respective asking prices (in my view no, neither of them were) but about whether Rafa should be allowed to choose which player he gets when it's a case of having one or the other.

 

Without actually getting into the world of opinion on one player over another, the only footballing reason I can see for taking Keane before Barry is that we were light in the attacking positions, and heavy in the midfield positions.

 

The only reason I've seen given for the priority on Keane is that the deal was quite a way forward.

 

So we pissed Rafa off to avoid pissing Spurs off?

 

Maybe it was too far gone, we don't know for sure when Rafa told Parry he wanted Barry before Keane.

 

But there are reasonable grounds there for Rafa to be angry with Parry if it went how it sounds it went.

 

I think it's fair to say that any manager - in English football - would have been annoyed with that set of circumstances.

 

What I'll add there though is that even though he would be right to be pissed off, any manager in English football should not then take it out on the new player.

 

I missed this post somehow.

 

To be fair I don't think it was just a question of fucking Spurs off was it. Parry knew the Mancs were in for Berbatov and had they pushed their deal through, there was every chance Spurs would can our deal for Keane (I understand in order to push things along Spurs told both clubs only one of Berbotov or Keane would be allowed to go). If that had happened can you imagine the shit Parry would have got for that? He saw we were a striker down. He saw we had a deal in place (which we didn't for Barry), so pushed along. Yes it fucked Rafa off, but so do lots of things. My point is it's no real surprise it happened. I think it happens at all clubs all the time - hence my point that it's happened to Ferguson. Yes Ferguson is the main person and has a lot of influence, but even he can be told what to do by the board and owner.

[Barrington Womble]

I was asking , though, why didn't he see it coming? The reason you and I saw it is because we were absymal in the majority of games but a combination of sending-offs , attacking intent (for the last 15 minutes) and team spirit tended to see us through.

Rationally , I can only propose that the reason he didn't see it coming is because he actually thought we were playing well which like I was indicating previously means this is how he wants us to play. I mean it's that or his meaning has just been lost in translation which is always a possibility.

 

I think he was happy with how we were playing. I think he also didn't think it was possible for us not to keep edging games. To me, it was obvious it couldn't last and I was saying so at the time. The quality of our play was not good enough to maintain the position we were in or even a decent challenge. We either had to change or it was going to go tits up. Rafa for some reason thought we could just carry on as normal and I find it shocking that he could think that.

[ToxtethTerror]

This isn't an argument about whether Barry or Keane were worth their respective asking prices (in my view no, neither of them were) but about whether Rafa should be allowed to choose which player he gets when it's a case of having one or the other.

 

The players are assets of the club, the board have a financial responsibility to its shareholders. This isn't about any of the above but about prudence. You don't sell a better, younger player to buy an older less able player for £6m more than what the manager said the players was worth, especially as nobody wanted to pay the value for Xabi.

 

Managers aren't there to play championship manager, they have to justify purchases and if Alonso wasn't attracting interest for the money we wanted and the Keane deal was on the brink for a club who didn't want to sell then Parry had to make a decision. Getting neither player would have got him lynched as you well know.

[ratcatcher]

What hacks me off after our defeat at the home of the smog monsters is that they got stuffed 4-0 by spurs! 4-0 immediately after beating us for god's sake!

 

Still, at least keane scored. For spurs!!

[dennis tooth]

Ferguson: I have plans for Torres

442 Staff - Yesterday, 01:54

 

 

Peterborough United manager Darren Ferguson says Argentinian winger Sergio Torres is still a part of his plans at London Road, and may yet prove influential in the Posh's bid for back-to-back promotions.

[Whelan]

The players are assets of the club, the board have a financial responsibility to its shareholders. This isn't about any of the above but about prudence. You don't sell a better, younger player to buy an older less able player for £6m more than what the manager said the players was worth, especially as nobody wanted to pay the value for Xabi.

 

Managers aren't there to play championship manager, they have to justify purchases and if Alonso wasn't attracting interest for the money we wanted and the Keane deal was on the brink for a club who didn't want to sell then Parry had to make a decision. Getting neither player would have got him lynched as you well know.

 

Surely that is the crux of the matter? Rafa thought Barry was a better player and ultimately that is the choice of the manager and should never be the choice of the board.

[ToxtethTerror]

Surely that is the crux of the matter? Rafa thought Barry was a better player and ultimately that is the choice of the manager and should never be the choice of the board.

 

That would be easier to stomach if both players were costing the same in and out and it was a matter of opinion but Rafa wanted to buy Barry for £18m far more than the £12m bids we were getting for Alonso (clubs knew Rafa was desperate to get rid).

 

That then makes it a choice for the board in my opinion. As I said, the players are assets of he club not the manage and in cases like this the board needs to see what is most prudent for the club.

[Whelan]

That would be easier to stomach if both players were costing the same in and out and it was a matter of opinion but Rafa wanted to buy Barry for £18m far more than the £12m bids we were getting for Alonso (clubs knew Rafa was desperate to get rid).

 

That then makes it a choice for the board in my opinion. As I said, the players are assets of he club not the manage and in cases like this the board needs to see what is most prudent for the club.

 

Players dont cost the same though! They never do, if they did every managers balance sheet would be 0. Rafa rated Barry and felt that he would offer more to the team than Alonso, whether he overestimated Alonso's worth or not, the question is could we have afforded to spend in essence 6 million on a 28 year old? of course we could.

It is not my decision, yours or the boards it is the managers, it has to be. I would have been more inclined to see the boards position regarding Alonso had Parry not waited until after the fans singing his name at the Lazio match before he made his feeling public.

[ToxtethTerror]

Players dont cost the same though! They never do, if they did every managers balance sheet would be 0. Rafa rated Barry and felt that he would offer more to the team than Alonso, whether he overestimated Alonso's worth or not, the question is could we have afforded to spend in essence 6 million on a 28 year old? of course we could.

It is not my decision, yours or the boards it is the managers, it has to be. I would have been more inclined to see the boards position regarding Alonso had Parry not waited until after the fans singing his name at the Lazio match before he made his feeling public.

 

Agree that players don't cost the same but the valuation of Barry given that he only had 2 years left and was older than Alonso made the Alonso deal look very poor at £12m.

 

You can't also blame Parry, 75% of fabs would have preferred to keep Alonso rather than pay a NET £6m for Barry and lose Xabi.

 

We can agree to disagree here but the board are within their rights to have the final say in extreme cases such as this. In my opinion selling Alonso for £6m less than buying Barry is like selling Gerrard for £25m and buying Frank Lampard for £31m...

 

There have to times when the board acts in the best interests of the club where a deal doesn't look right.

[Whelan]

Agree that players don't cost the same but the valuation of Barry given that he only had 2 years left and was older than Alonso made the Alonso deal look very poor at £12m.

 

You can't also blame Parry, 75% of fabs would have preferred to keep Alonso rather than pay a NET £6m for Barry and lose Xabi.

 

We can agree to disagree here but the board are within their rights to have the final say in extreme cases such as this. In my opinion selling Alonso for £6m less than buying Barry is like selling Gerrard for £25m and buying Frank Lampard for £31m...

 

There have to times when the board acts in the best interests of the club where a deal doesn't look right.

 

It looks like we will have to disagree, but this under no circumstances was this an extreme case!!! seriously come on!

 

And Rafa has to stand and fall by his decision not the fans. I just wish the club were this strict with Degan, now he was overpriced!!!!

[ToxtethTerror]

It looks like we will have to disagree, but this under no circumstances was this an extreme case!!! seriously come on!

 

And Rafa has to stand and fall by his decision not the fans. I just wish the club were this strict with Degan, now he was overpriced!!!!

 

Buying Barry for £18m (2 years left on contract) and selling Alonso for £12m (4 years left on contract) is in my opinion an extreme case mate. The board also has a responsibility to its shareholders which includes the financial aspects of the club, that includes transfers.

[ToxtethTerror]

With respect I stopped reading that after half of it however well written. I haven't said that the finance director should buy players and that we should adopt a "sell for profit" attitude like Ajax. I just think the signings of Keane, Dossenna and Riera in addition to the attempt to sign Gareth Barry all at seriously big cost - then the selling of a very good player probably at the lower end of his value isn't prudent. There is taking risks which every manager should be allowed to do and there is madness.. it's where madness sets in that the board should act in the best interests of the club.

 

You keep bringing up "trusting the manager", who said the board don't trust him? If they didn't he would be sacked but football and any business is a collective effort that also involves surviving financially and the board have a responsibility to its shareholders not just to the manager.

 

Otherwise what you are really saying is that Rafa has no appraisal, no boss and no sign offs.

 

Time to get in the real world I think.... see Ferguson and the example of him being refused Vaan Der Saar because he already had Bosnich - and that was after winning a treble.